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Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 28, 2015 5:10:30 GMT -6
So... how many HD do your Skeletons and Zombies have?
Chainmail Zombies attack as heavy foot, defend as Heavy Horse.
Guidon D&D" draft (1972) "Skeletons/ 1/ Zombies 2"
Dalluhn edit (Late 1973) "Skeletons/Zombies 1; 2"
D&D 1st-4th prints (Jan 1974-Nov 1975) Monsters & Treasure p3: "Skeletons/Zombies 1/2" Reference Sheets 1st-4th: "Skeletons/Zombies 1/2"
D&D 2nd-3rd prints (Jan 1975-Apr 1975) Correction Sheet: "Skeletons/Zombies hit dice should read 1/2/1"
D&D 5th-7th prints (Dec 1975-1978) Monsters & Treasure p3: "Skeletons/Zombies ½/1" Reference Sheets: "Skeletons/Zombies ½/2"
D&D 8th print (2013) Monsters & Treasure p3: "Skeletons/Zombies ½/1" Reference Sheets: "Skeletons/Zombies ½/2"
Holmes Draft (pre-Jul 1977) Skeletons: ½ HD Zombies: ½ HD
Holmes (Jul 1977-) Skeletons: ½ HD Zombies: 2 HD
AD&D Monster Manual (1977) Skeletons: 1 HD Zombies: 2 HD
(Interesting to note, perhaps, that Zombies are considered to be Monster Level 2 (U&WA p10) along with: Hobgoblins, Warriors, Conjurers, Gnolls, Ghouls, Berserkers, etc.)
edit: added Chainmail, Dalluhn, and Holmes draft. edit: added Guidon draft
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Post by aldarron on Nov 28, 2015 8:43:34 GMT -6
That's pretty interesting. I looked in the monster table in the Dalluhn draft and found this "1; 2".
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Post by scottenkainen on Nov 28, 2015 8:51:29 GMT -6
I don't, but you could interpret this to mean that skeleton and zombie Hit Dice improve over time.
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 28, 2015 9:55:00 GMT -6
Interesting, I didn't know about this. As far as I know the published Holmes rulebook in all printings has them at ½ and 2 as you indicated above.
However, in the draft Holmes has ½ for skeletons and zombies, and Gygax/TSR changed the Zombie HD to 2 for publication.
I had thought Holmes accidentally copied the "½" from "½/1" to each entry, but now I wonder if he actually interpreted the original "1/2" as being "½" for each of them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2015 13:03:10 GMT -6
Skeletons, 1; Zombies, 2.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2015 13:06:58 GMT -6
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Post by Red Baron on Nov 28, 2015 13:27:25 GMT -6
Skeletons have 1/2 HD. Arrows and swords only do half damage to skeletons, so bring a mace.
Zombies have 1 HD.
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Post by tetramorph on Nov 28, 2015 15:25:42 GMT -6
Wow, I never noticed that. I always have just gone with M&T table, so skeletons ½, zombies 1.
But I read both to be impervious to range fire (perfect demon / vampire lord infantry).
I make skeletons enchanted and thus they reassemble after a few rounds unless crushed or burned (or both = cremation).
I make zombies the brain eating kind from the 1960s forward. So on an attack roll of 20 or a damage roll of 6 the players have to save against "brain bite." If they fail they start turning into zombies within a few rounds unless, well, the standard cures!
That way, my low level undead are still kind of scary to deal with.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 28, 2015 15:57:56 GMT -6
Skeletons have 1/2 HD. Arrows and swords only do half damage to skeletons, so bring a mace. By the book they're impervious to normal missiles
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Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 28, 2015 16:02:06 GMT -6
Seems like Zombies/Skeletons began with 1 HD and 2 HD, respectively. Then there was some mucking about with the typography in the middle; "1/2" looked a lot like "½"... By the Monster Manual we're back to 1 HD and 2 HD, respectively.
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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 29, 2015 5:18:59 GMT -6
I always have just gone with M&T table, so skeletons ½, zombies 1. The (5th printing) copy of M&T on my desk (my play copy) says this and that's the one I use most of the time, but my friend growing up had a 4th printing and so I have no idea what I was facing as a player. I should point out, however, that I "cheat" when I GM becasue I have several resources handy and grab one at random for most of my monsters rather than rely on any one source. Helps to keep things fresh. At my table are typically M&T, an AD&D 2E Monsterous Manual (the one with the nice color pictures), the Rules Cyclopedia, and C&C Monsters & Treasures. All are roughly compatible but not always the same, and so I don't always remember which monster came from which book.
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spacelem
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Post by spacelem on Nov 30, 2015 8:54:27 GMT -6
I accidentally rolled 2d6 instead of 1d6 for a fight with 7 zombies last night, and the result was far more satisfying (a zombie goblin chewed the face off one of the party's NPC fighters, cue much dismay). They'll definitely be 2 HD from now on. Skellies will be 1 HD, but only take half damage from weapons that aren't good at delivering a lot of crushing force (e.g. swords and bows, axes and maces are the way to deal with them).
(Note: I'm using the WotC reprints)
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Post by delta on Feb 25, 2018 12:12:05 GMT -6
Thanks for this! I just discovered these confusing differences between my 1st and 6th printings. It's been about ten years that I thought the earliest iteration was Skeletons ½, Zombies 1. I was looking for what happened in 2nd-5th so this scratched my itch. Also, I misread what Zenopus said about the Holmes manuscript until this cleared it up for me. One thought: Acaeum indicates that the "Corrections Sheet" (they call it "errata" consistently) was also included in a "First Beta" printing of mid-1974 ( link). Should the correction sheet reference at the top be expanded to 1st-3rd prints?
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Post by Zenopus on Feb 25, 2018 13:20:12 GMT -6
Looks like I updated my write-up for Zombie for the Holmes Manuscript series, but not Skeleton. I'll do some more editing. Also, to the list above we can now add info from the Guidon D&D Monster Table, between Chainmail and Dalluhn: "Guidon D&D" Draft (1972) Skeletons/.....1/ ..Zombies.......2 (The dots represent blanks, which BBCode won't show multiples of) Since the words/numbers are on different lines, it's pretty clear that originally it was meant that Skeletons were 1, Zombies were 2, not "1/2" for each. Also, Goblins/Kobolds are written as "(1-3 hits)", not "1/2", so Gygax presumably would have done the same had Skeletons and Zombies been intended to have one-half HD.
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Post by delta on Feb 26, 2018 0:32:23 GMT -6
Zenopus: Thanks for that! It also occurred to me that in the Vol-2 text, the Kobolds entry carefully describes how to generate the ½ HD, but no such detail appears in the Skeletons entry (not even a back-reference, as might be expected).
Question to anyone with access to early drafts: Are the other undead hit dice all the same as published OD&D? That is: Does the undead HD sequence go (1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7-9)?
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 26, 2018 4:11:16 GMT -6
That is: Does the undead HD sequence go (1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7-9)? For a moment I thought that might align with clerical HD sequence, but no. It's (1, 2, 3, 4, 4+1, 5, 6, 7-7+). However, with all the discussion re: nerfing clerics, I don't recall anyone suggesting their HD sequence could be switched out to match the undead progression. That would allow fighters to get ahead of clerics on HD sooner, and also match clerics vs undead HD for HD on the Turn Undead table
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 26, 2018 4:12:48 GMT -6
Also, to the list above we can now add info from the Guidon D&D Monster Table, between Chainmail and Dalluhn: "Guidon D&D" Draft (1972) Skeletons/.....1/ ..Zombies.......2 Thanks Zenopus; added.
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Post by delta on Feb 26, 2018 7:55:21 GMT -6
That is: Does the undead HD sequence go (1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7-9)? For a moment I thought that might align with clerical HD sequence, but no. It's (1, 2, 3, 4, 4+1, 5, 6, 7-7+). Glad I asked. Not what I expected, but makes some sense (what with Wraiths being "simply high-class Wights", if I'm reading that correctly). Thank you!
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Post by Eibon of Mhu-Thulan on Feb 26, 2018 21:06:53 GMT -6
Skeletons 2d8+4, Specifically, and Zombies have 3d8+9. Once their out of HP, they are destroyed.
However (got this from Chaosium), when damage is done to a skeleton (bludgeoning vulnerability, damage x2), the damage is multiplied by 5. The resulting number becomes the percentage chance that the skeleton is smashed to pieces and destroyed. Note that I play 5th Edition.
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Post by Zenopus on Feb 26, 2018 21:09:56 GMT -6
Zenopus: Thanks for that! It also occurred to me that in the Vol-2 text, the Kobolds entry carefully describes how to generate the ½ HD, but no such detail appears in the Skeletons entry (not even a back-reference, as might be expected). That's a good point. I've only seen the parts of the Guidon D&D draft that Jon has shown us publicly - as outlined here - but these include the entire Monster Table. The original HD for the undead is the same, but they weren't originally ordered as shown in Vol 2. Monster Hit Dice Men Variable (changed to 1 in type) Goblins/Kobolds 1-3 hits Hobgoblins/Gnolls 1+1/2 Orcs 1 Ghouls 2 Wights 3 Ogres 4+1 Trolls 6+3 Giants 8 to 10 (10 changed to 12 in ink) Skeletons/Zombies 1/2 Wraiths 4 Mummies 5 Spectres 6 Vampires 7-9 Small Animals & Insects Variable Large Animals & Insects Variable Rocs 5 Griffons 6 (+1 added in ink) Cockatrice 5 Basilisks 6+1 Meduse 8 Gorgons 7 Manticores (added in pencil) 6? (hard to read) Just added a post in the Guidon D&D thread comparing this list with the Fantasy Reference Table in Chainmail
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Post by delta on Feb 26, 2018 21:49:02 GMT -6
I've only seen the parts of the Guidon D&D draft that Jon has shown us publicly - as outlined here - but these include the entire Monster Table. The original HD for the undead is the same, but they weren't originally ordered as shown in Vol 2. Zounds! And thank you for that. I hadn't watched that video of Jon's all the way through previously. Most enlightening.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 27, 2018 3:07:39 GMT -6
Skeletons 2d8+4, Specifically, and Zombies have 3d8+9. Once their out of HP, they are destroyed.
However (got this from Chaosium), when damage is done to a skeleton (bludgeoning vulnerability, damage x2), the damage is multiplied by 5. The resulting number becomes the percentage chance that the skeleton is smashed to pieces and destroyed. Note that I play 5th Edition. I love that OD&D achieves same outcome so elegantly. Skeletons have 1-6 hp. (Assuming you follow this) They are invulnerable to normal missiles. Otherwise; when damage exceeds hp, the skeleton is smashed to pieces and destroyed.
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Post by Todd on Feb 27, 2018 7:45:15 GMT -6
For reference, in b/x it’s also 1 and 2 for skeleton and zombie, respectively.
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 27, 2018 10:13:33 GMT -6
I use the first printing of the D&D rules. I give skeletons 1 HD and zombies 2 HD.
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Post by Eibon of Mhu-Thulan on Feb 27, 2018 17:18:41 GMT -6
Skeletons 2d8+4, Specifically, and Zombies have 3d8+9. Once their out of HP, they are destroyed.
However (got this from Chaosium), when damage is done to a skeleton (bludgeoning vulnerability, damage x2), the damage is multiplied by 5. The resulting number becomes the percentage chance that the skeleton is smashed to pieces and destroyed. Note that I play 5th Edition. I love that OD&D achieves same outcome so elegantly. Skeletons have 1-6 hp. (Assuming you follow this) They are invulnerable to normal missiles. Otherwise; when damage exceeds hp, the skeleton is smashed to pieces and destroyed.
I must apologize for getting a bit off topic (bringing up 5E). I must say that one good feature of basic D&D is that combat does not take a year of Sundays (thinking 3E).
I must really enjoy rolling percent dice.
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Post by countingwizard on Feb 28, 2018 9:24:20 GMT -6
I actually prefer beefing up the undeads using Monster Manual stats, but I think it is going to get in the way of this new spell/monster encounter idea I had: skeletal monsters and zombie monsters. If I did it by the LBB, skeletal monsters would be half their original hit-die while zombie monsters would be full hit-die but always act last. However if I was using Monster Manual, things get crazy when they are double hit-die zombie giants.
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Elphilm
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Post by Elphilm on Mar 1, 2018 6:34:58 GMT -6
One of the reasons I prefer Skeletons with ½ HD and Zombies with 1 HD is that it encourages Fighters to cleave through Skeleton and Zombie hordes using their multiple attacks against monsters with 1 HD or less, which is an image I like. Skeletons and Zombies don't have dangerous special attacks either, which makes Fighters perfect for dealing with them. To handle the more dangerous Undead types (Ghouls and above), you really want to bring a Cleric instead.
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Post by delta on Mar 1, 2018 9:19:54 GMT -6
I actually prefer beefing up the undeads using Monster Manual stats, but I think it is going to get in the way of this new spell/monster encounter idea I had: skeletal monsters and zombie monsters. If I did it by the LBB, skeletal monsters would be half their original hit-die while zombie monsters would be full hit-die but always act last. However if I was using Monster Manual, things get crazy when they are double hit-die zombie giants. You may be aware of the AD&D rule that assigns an N-HD monster N HD as a skeleton, N+1 HD as a zombie? (DMG p. 41)
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Post by Zenopus on Mar 2, 2018 15:42:42 GMT -6
You may be aware of the AD&D rule that assigns an N-HD monster N HD as a skeleton, N+1 HD as a zombie? (DMG p. 41) I'd forgotten about that! Very useful. It makes sense to me that a Zombie version would be tougher to kill than the living version. Zombies can lose chunks without suffering, can't bleed out. We could generalize this further for all undead: Skeleton Monster HD = Living Monster HD Zombie Monster HD = Living Monster HD +1 Ghoul Monster HD = Living Monster HD + 1 Wight Monster HD = Living Monster HD + 2 Wraith Monster HD = Living Monster HD + 3 Mummified Monster HD = Living Monster HD + 4 etc One question would be whether to apply a penalty to turning based on the HD increase.
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Post by delta on Mar 2, 2018 21:06:03 GMT -6
One question would be whether to apply a penalty to turning based on the HD increase. There's some Gygaxian precedent for that. The MMII "Zombie, Monster" doesn't follow exactly the same rules (fixed 6 HD, from "bugbears, giants, etc."), but do get turned as ghasts.
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