Wizard Fighting Capability

[ODDYSSEUS]

Will someone please explain to a layman the Wizard Fighting Capability from Men & Magic? A 9th Level Magic-User fights as 4 men +1 in Normal Combat but a 10th Level Magic-user fights as 2 men in Normal Combat? The situation seems even worse if you allow the CM Wizard -4 to Wizard -1 progression even if a 6th Level Magic-User (Wizard -4 vs 3 Men +1) can wage Fantastic Combat a Level earlier. What happened here? Did I miss something?

[Mushgnome]

(redacted)

[Finarvyn]

Much like Mushgnome suggested, there are two entries to consider.

For "normal" combat we look at the number of men. The 9th level magic-user fights as 4 men (with a +1 on one of the attacks) the way I interpret it. The 10th level MU isn't any worse, and the question would be if the fighting caps out at 4+1 or if they would fight better along a progression not specifically spelled out in OD&D. I kind of like the "capped out" model, except that Gygax gave the interpretation that a Super Hero fought as 8 men in the Strategic Review article. (The fighting man chart appears to cap out at 6 men.)

For "supernatural" combat we are limited to Hero and Superhero, with the addition of Wizard as the lone non-fighter entry. The supposition there is that characters with Fighting Capability so low that they don't at least rate "Hero -1" are ineffective in supernatural combat. (So, essentially an infinite number of angry villagers could never injure Dracula.) At least, that's the way we always did it. Reaching "Hero -1" as a 3rd level fighter finally gets you a seat at the table in the supernatural buffet.

There are some speedbumps in the charts; places where the numbers don't quite make sense to me. I try to avoid looking at these too closely.

[ODDYSSEUS]

Thank you for the replies! I still wonder why the distinction at 10th Level exists at all if it makes no difference? Why not just keep entering Hero +1 down the table?

[ODDYSSEUS]

I should have prefaced the questions with the disclaimer stating a hypothetical Referee implements Fighting Capability in D&D... Sorry. So, if we "cap out" our Magic-User Fighting Capability at Hero +1 (4 Men +1) what would Wizard +1, Wizard +2, etc. translate too? Has anyone tackled this in their games? I just have to believe the Wizard distinction was a deliberate choice though I do not not know why! Mechanically it must mean something, right?

[ODDYSSEUS]

What if the distinction incorporates another aspect of CM?

I also like the idea of "capping out" a Magic-User at Hero +1, btw.

What if the Wizard Fighting Capability while being house ruled to "cap out" at Hero +1, also house rules:

1. Wizards can handle magic weaponry. (CM p30)

I still do not know what to do with Wizard +1, Wizard +2, etc. (especially if we "cap out" at Hero +1).

What would be a reasonable progression if we did not "cap out" the Magic-User at Hero +1?

[ODDYSSEUS]

Suddenly it occurs to me Magic-Users can wield magic weaponry so long as they are enchanted versions of weapons they are normally permitted to use... Back to square one, why the distinction?!

[talysman]

I took a skim through the Chainmail rules a couple years ago, but I'm no Chainmail player. Still, my assumption was that the "2 Men, 3 Men, etc." progression was based on d6 hit dice progression: if a character had as many hit dice as 4 men, they fought as "4 Men". This seems confirmed by the Gygax quote about superheroes fighting as "8 Men", but doesn't match the cleric, who seems to always be "one man behind". It works for what's given for the M-U progression, though.

Since fighters get a slight boost on the first two levels, perhaps clerics were held back a bit to reflect that they aren't meant to be as combat-focused. One rough way to handle it would be to assume that clerics have about 2/3rds the combat ability that would otherwise be indicated by the hit dice (dropping fractions.) That doesn't explain why M-Us are better than clerics, but just gain full hit dice slower than fighters, but maybe we could live with that.

Since I only skimmed CM, I don't really know the difference between the fantasy combat ability of Hero, Superhero, and Wizard. But one way to interpret it might be to keep Wizard a little less effective vs. supernatural creatures than Superhero, unless fighting creatures that are basically M-Us themselves, like demons and djinn, where they would get a bonus. That's just an idea, though, not anything that's actually in the rules.

[hamurai]

(Pages refer to my CM 3rd Edition 2nd Print PDF)

Maybe it's a reference to the Wizard's ability to survive Dragon fire and defend against other supernatural attacks like spells, to deal siege damage (CM p.39), to cause morale checks and of course the Fantasy Combat Table (CM p.44).
Also, Wizards fight as 2 Armored Foot (edit: in normal combat), as has been stated before. Edit: In Man-to-Man combat, I guess there's no sense in attacking as normal men because Wizards can just kill normal men with a Magic Missile, everything else uses the Fantasy Combat Table. If they indeed attack with weapons, the Man-to-Man Melee table would apply, wouldn't it?

Jul 25, 2022 10:33:12 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

 I kind of like the "capped out" model, except that Gygax gave the interpretation that a Super Hero fought as 8 men in the Strategic Review article. (The fighting man chart appears to cap out at 6 men.)

At 10th level, FC is Superhero+1 and CM's Fantasy Reference Table (p. 43) says, Suphereroes attack and defend as 8 men, so the FM would cap out at 8 Men +1, as I understand it?

[Mushgnome]

(redacted)

[ODDYSSEUS]

Really, thank you all for the replies! So, is there anything then in D&D distinguishing Hero and Super Hero from Wizard Fighting Capability as far as mechanics are concerned? Are we simply left to our own devices with this one?

[Mushgnome]

(redacted)

[retrorob]

ODDYSSEUS

Basically, you need Chainmail to understand these columns.

The number of "men" is versus so-called normal-men (and orcs, goblins, kobolds, etc. Generally, all creatures with HD 1 and less). So "Hero" (Fighter level 4) can attack 4 'normal' men, perhaps by rolling 4d6 and hitting them depending on their armor class (heavy foot, light foot, etc.). Superhero can attack 8 men and so on.

The hero/superhero/wizards status refers to Fantasy Combat Table (Chainmail) that utilizes 2d6 roll. It's used versus fantastic monsters. Gygax in Vol. III tells us how to combine CM mechanics with D&D:

The basic system is that from CHAINMAIL, with one figure representing one man
or creature. Melee can be conducted with the combat table given in Book I or by
the CHAINMAIL system, with scores equalling a drive back or kill equal only to a
hit. Battles involving large numbers of figures can be fought at a 20:1 ratio, with
single fantastic types fighting separately at 1:1 or otherwise against but a single
20:1 figure.

Note that Heroes and Superheroes are separated in most cases by 2 just 'pips' according to Fantasy Combat Table, so Hero +1 and Superhero -1 (e.g. roll 2d6, apply the modifier, check the target number at cross section) are in fact the same. Wizard poses an issue, as in Chainmail weaker magic-users (Warlocks, Sorcerers, etc.) were just Wizards -1,-2,-3 and even -4, while in OD&D they are heroes (+/-1), before they become Wizards. Now take a look at FCT. Both Hero and Wizard need 10 to drive back Superhero, 11 vs Giant, 6 vs Wight/Ghoul, right? So Hero +1 is a bit better than Wizard vs these opponents, right? So Necromancer/Wizard (M-U 10) is actually worse than Hero+1/Sorcerer (M-U 9), right?

I don't think Gary really playtested this system. It looks as if the values were typed in in a hurry.

If you want to combine CM with D&D, you can rule that Wizard's Fighting Capability just equals that of Superhero, or that Hero +1 is "level cap" for Magic-Users. Another possibility is to replace heroic status for Magic-Users with "Wizard -x".

[Finarvyn]

If you don't have Chainmail, I may have linked to what might help. The link is the chart you want, so you might copy the image to print out. When you look at the chart you notice that there is a row for each type of attacking creature and a column for each type of defending creature. Hero, Super Hero, and Wizard are all row/columns on the table.

i0.wp.com/dmdavid.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/FCT.jpg?w=1000&ssl=1

[ODDYSSEUS]

So, I just whipped this up. Perhaps it better illustrates what I am after. The reason I asked about Wizard Fighting Capability as it relates to D&D Combat was for the purpose of fleshing out D&D with Chainmail. I am familiar with the differences between Normal and Fantastic Combat. I am looking for anything I may have missed after reading through Men & Magic concerning what "Wizard" as a Fighting Capability actually means mechanically for D&D. Non-Chainmail sources are Red.
 
Comparing Chainmail Wizards with D&D Wizards



Man-sized figures include: …wizards… (CM 28)

Magic-Users includes only men and elves. (M&M 6)


Those Elves (and Fairies) armed with magical weapons add an extra die in normal combat, and against other fantastic creatures they will perform even better:

Wizards – Fantasy Combat Table, score 10 (CM 29)

All elves add +1 to their hit probabilities when using sword or bow. (GH 67)


WIZARDS (including Sorcerers at -1, Warlocks at -2, Magicians at -3, Seers at -4) (CM 30)

In normal combat, all this class will fight as two Armored Foot, or two Medium Horse if mounted,

Magic-Users Fighting Capability (M&M 17)


and Wizards can handle magical weaponry.

The whole plethora of enchanted items lies at the magic-user’s beck and call, save the arms and armor of the fighters (see, however, Elves); Magic-Users may arm themselves with daggers only. (M&M 6)


However, their chief prowess lies elsewhere. Wizards can become invisible and remain so until they attack,

Invisibility (M&M 24)


they can see in darkness,

Infravision (M&M 25)


they affect friendly and enemy morale as do Super Heroes,

Heroes … add 1 to the die or dice of their unit (or whatever unit they are with). (CM 30) & …they are about twice as powerful. When a Super-hero approaches within his charge movement of the enemy, all such units must check morale as if they had taken excess casualties. (CM 30)


they throw deadly missiles,

Fire Ball (M&M 25) & Lightning Bolt (M&M 25)


and Wizards cast terrible spells.

EXPLANATION OF SPELLS (M&M 23)


Wizards are themselves impervious to normal missile fire

Protection from Normal Missiles (M&M 26)


but if they are struck by a missile from an enemy Wizard they must score 7 or better with two to survive. (Adjust all dice scores by the lesser value of weaker magic users.)

Failure to make the total indicated above results in the weapon having full effect, i.e. you are turned to stone, take full damage from dragon’s breath, etc. Scoring the total indicated above (or scoring higher) means the weapon has no effect (death ray, polymorph, paralyzation, stone, or spell)… (M&M 20)


Missiles: A Wizard can throw either of two types of missile (select which before play begins).

A fire ball, equal in hit area to the large catapult hit area,

Fire Ball (M&M 25)


or a lightning bolt, 3/4" wide by 6" long, with an attack value equal to a heavy field gun,

Lightning Bolt (M&M 25)


are the two missile types employed. These missiles will destroy any men or creatures which are struck by them, with certain exceptions noted below. Both types of missiles can be thrown up to 24", direct or indirect fire, with range being called before the hit pattern is placed. The center of the fire ball is placed down at the number of inches called. The head of the lightning bolt is placed at the number of inches called, so that its body extends 6" behind it in a straight line from the Wizard who threw it.


Spells: There are virtually unlimited numbers of spells that can be employed,

EXPLANATION OF SPELLS (M&M 23) & Research by magical types can be done at any level of experience, but the level of magic involved dictates the possibility of success, as well as the amount of money necessary to invest. Assume that a Magic-User can use a 4th-level spell (explained later), therefore he could develop a new spell provided it was equal to or less than 4th level. All this will be explained fully in the section dealing with SPELLS. (M&M 7) & Both Magic-Users and Clerics may attempt to expand on the spells listed (as applicable by class). (M&M 34)


but the list below contains the major ones used in most fantastic battles. If there are two or more opposing Wizards, and the game is not a recreation of a battle found in a novel, determine which is the stronger magician (by casting dice if necessary). The stronger magician can successfully cast a counter-spell with a two dice score of 7 or better, while a weaker magician needs a score of 8, 9, 10 or 11, depending on his relative strength. A counter-spell fully occupies a magician's powers.


1. Phantasmal Forces: Creating the apparition of a unit or creature for four turns, maxi-duration. (Complexity 2)

Phantasmal Forces (M&M 24)

2. Darkness: Casting increasing gloom over the entire playing area for as long as the Wizard is not attacked. On the turn that the spell is cast light is not affected, on the second turn semi-darkness sets in, and on the third turn if becomes fully dark (only those troops that can see in darkness can then attack defend). The spell takes the reverse order when ended or countered. (Complexity 1)

Light (M&M 23)

3. Wizard Light: The dispellation of darkness in an area extending 24" in all directions radiating from the Wizard casting the spell. (Complexity 1)

Light (M&M 23)

4. Detection: A spell which detects either hidden enemies or the use and effect of other magic spells. If will not discover hidden enemies or the type of magic being employed if the opposing Wizard is of greater strength, but the use of magic by the enemy will be revealed. (Complexity 2)

Detect Magic (M&M 23) & Detect Invisible (M&M 23)

5. Concealment: A spell which will conceal a unit or fantastic creature from all save certain creatures which have the power to detect hidden enemies. (Complexity 3)

Invisibility (M&M 24)

6. Conjuration of on Elemental: Wizards can conjure Elementals, but no more than one of each type can be brought into existence. (Note: This does not apply to Djinn and Efreet.) If the Wizard who conjured the Elemental is disturbed (attacked) while the Elemental is still in existence, he loses control of it, and it will then attack the conjurer. An Elemental created by a Wizard who is subsequently killed will attack the nearest figure. Such Elementals must be dispelled by a Wizard or (killed) by combat. (Complexity 5)

Conjure Elemental (M&M 28)

7. Moving Terrain: Causing the shifting of vegetation hills, etc. A spell possible only to a Wizard. (Complexity 6)

Move Earth (M&M 31)

8. Protection from Evil: A 12" diameter circle which will keep out all evil fantastic creatures/men. (Complexity 3)

Protection from Evil (M&M 23)

9. Levitate: A spell which allows the user to rise 6" per turn for up to six turns. It is possible to remain stationary, but lateral movement if not possible unless some form of propulsion is available. (Complexity 2)

Levitate (M&M 23)

10. Slowness: A spell which causes up to 20 figures to move at one-half speed for two turns. (Complexity 3)

Slow Spell (M&M 26)

11. Haste: A spell which speeds the movement of up to 20 figures by 50% for three turns. (Complexity 3)

Haste Spell (M&M 26)

12. Polymorph: This allows the user to change himself into the semblance of anything of from his own size to something as large as even a giant. It lasts until the user changes himself back or it is countered. (Complexity 4)

Polymorph Self (M&M 26)

13. Confusion: By using this spell up to 20 of the enemy con be caused to react in absolutely the opposite manner. For example, if they advanced, they will be retreated instead. Duration is but one turn. The user secretly indicates which unit is to be confused, and when the spell takes effect he allows the enemy to move the troops and then when all movement is finished he changes the action of the confused unit to the opposite of what it actually did. (Complexity 4)

Confusion (M&M 26)

14. Hallucinatory Terrain: A spell which makes some form of terrain appear to exist/not exist until it is contacted by a living thing. At this the hallucination dissipates. Woods, rocks, marsh, etc. can be effected by this spell. (Complexity 4)

Hallucinatory Terrain (M&M 27)

15. Cloudkill: A gaseous cloud of poisonous vapors which kill all men, orcs, dwarves, and the like when it contacts them. Cloud size is 3" deep by 6" wide by 3" high. It stays along the ground, moving away from the magic-user who casts it at the rate of 6" per turn. It will drift at random if he is not concentrating on it. (Complexity 5)

Cloudkill (M&M 30)

16. Anti-Magic Shell: This causes a bubble of force to surround the user and totally prevents anything magical from either entering or leaving the shell. If lasts for up to six turns. Shell radius is 5". (Complexity 6)

Anti-Magic Shell (M&M 31)



In order to cast and maintain any spell, a Wizard must be both stationary and undisturbed by attack upon his person.

I saw nothing in Men & Magic but perhaps there is an entry in UWA.



Number of Spells: The power of the magic user determines the number of spells he is able to manage:

Magic-Users Spells & Level (M&M 17)


Spell Distances: The distance at which the magic user can continue his spell is also reflected by his power:

Swords & Spells presents a wealth of info on this one.


Spell Complexity (Optional): Each listed spell has a complexity value, and this value indicates how difficult it is to use such spell. Wizards can more easily employ any value of spell than can Sorcerers, Sorcerers are more able than Warlocks, etc. In addition, there may be a delay in the effect of the spell, or it may be totally negated due to some minor error or distraction. The table below gives the scores necessary for immediate, deferred (1 turn), and negated spell effects by the various levels of magic-users.

The number above each column is the spell level (complexity, a somewhat subjective determination on the part of your authors). (M&M 19)


Paralyzed troops remain unmoving until touched by a friendly Elf, Hero-type, or Wizard. (CM 34)

Dispel Magic (M&M 25) & Remove Curse (M&M 26)


Dragon fire will kill any opponent it touches, except another Dragon, Super Hero, or a Wizard… (CM 35)

…or one-half effect (poison scoring one-half of the total possible hit damage and dragon’s breath scoring one-half of its full damage). (M&M 20)


Blue which breathe lightning (same as Wizard's lightning missile…) (CM 35)

Lightning Bolt (M&M 25)


…it is necessary that they be conjured up by a Wizard. (CM 36)

Conjure Elemental (M&M 28)


(Balrogs, Dragons, and Wizards who cast fire balls) (CM 36)

Fire Ball (M&M 25)


If an Elemental is uncontrolled by the Wizard who summoned it, it will attack the Wizard who conjured it… (CM 36)

Conjure Elemental (M&M 28)


Elves, hero-types, and certain magic users can wield magical weapons. (CM 38)

The whole plethora of enchanted items lies at the magic-user’s beck and call, save the arms and armor of the fighters (see, however, Elves); Magic-Users may arm themselves with daggers only. (M&M 6)


*Wizard – 3 points (fire ball and lightning bolts)

*May inflame any wooden structure; so can Dragons and Fire Elemental*. (CM 39)

Fire Ball and Lightning Bolt (M&M 25)



LAW: Wizards*

CHAOS: Wizards*

*Indicates the figure appears in two lists. (CM 39)

Character Alignment (M&M 9)


FANTASY REFERENCE TABLE (CM 43)

The Monsters (M&T)



FANTASY COMBAT TABLE (CM 44)

Fighting Capability (M&M) & Alternate Combat System (M&M)



Rules without Parallel in Chainmail (AFAIK):

Wizards and above may manufacture for their own use (or for sale) such items as potions, scrolls, and just about anything else magical. (M&M 6)

Elves can begin as either Fighting-Men or Magic-Users and freely switch class whenever they choose… (M&M 8)

…Magic-Users cannot become Clerics and vice-versa. (M&M 10)

Intelligence is the prime requisite for magical types. (M&M 10)

Magic-Users’ spells and some magic items will enable the speaking and understanding of languages. (M&M 12)

…Magic-Users and elves desire magical items… (M&M 12)

Characters who employ spells are assumed to acquire books containing the spells they can use, one book for each level. (M&M 34)

It appears nearly every aspect of Chainmail Wizards found a way to D&D Wizards with the exceptions of using magical weaponry and the morale rules. If I were to incorporate Chainmail elements in my D&D I would allow 10th Level Magic-Users not just the ability to craft magic weapons but also use them, and I would be mindful of a Magic-Users influence on Morale during combat (using yet more information from Chainmail in D&D). Everything else is already there but nothing I highlighted here explains the distinction of "Wizard" as a Fighting Capability in D&D! Thank you all for being patient with me.

[Desparil]

I would note that a Hero attacks as a type of infantry according to his equipment. With his limited weaponry and lack of armor, a magic-user is certainly considered Light Foot. A Wizard, on the other hand, attacks as Armored Foot. So going from "Hero + 1" at 9th level to "Wizard" at 10th level is a category change - from Light Foot to Armored Foot. There are some circumstances against mounted opponents where it would be more advantageous to attack as 4 Light Foot, but against other foot troops the 2 Armored Foot is the more powerful attack capability.

[ODDYSSEUS]

Jul 25, 2022 19:43:55 GMT -6 Desparil said:

I would note that a Hero attacks as a type of infantry according to his equipment. With his limited weaponry and lack of armor, a magic-user is certainly considered Light Foot. A Wizard, on the other hand, attacks as Armored Foot. So going from "Hero + 1" at 9th level to "Wizard" at 10th level is a category change - from Light Foot to Armored Foot. There are some circumstances against mounted opponents where it would be more advantageous to attack as 4 Light Foot, but against other foot troops the 2 Armored Foot is the more powerful attack capability.

Good points. However, I am still rationalizing the discrepancies between D&D Magic-Users Fighting Capability and Chainmail expectations.

Level  M&M                                                     CM equiv.
5        3 Men                                                   3 Men
6        3 Men +1                                              Wizard -4
7        Hero -1                                                 Wizard -3
8        Hero                                                     Wizard -2
9        Hero +1                                                Wizard -1
10      Wizard (2 Men (Normal)/1 Wiz (Fan))      Wizard

So, even if you take it back some Levels, you go from 3 Men (Normal) in D&D to 2 Men (Normal) per the Chainmail progression from Level 5 to Level 6. You can rumble with the Fantastic one Level earlier... at -4! and using the house rules I posted above you are able to craft and use magic weapons and use the morale rules four Levels earlier with potentially serious handicaps. I think this all has potential but I am still not sure just how to go about making it all work.

[waysoftheearth]

I agree with much of what has already been posted above

One additional nuance re:

Jul 25, 2022 9:26:15 GMT -6 ODDYSSEUS said:

A 9th Level Magic-User fights as 4 men +1 in Normal Combat but a 10th Level Magic-user fights as 2 men in Normal Combat?

What you are really saying here is:
A 9th level D&D-M-U fights as 4 men+1 in man-to-man, whereas a CM-Wizard fights as 2 figures in mass combat.

Reconciling D&D with CM is often not straightforward because the two games were not designed to fit carefully together. Certainly not in the sense that modern games might be designed today.

That said, if you do want to use CM with your D&D there are often ways to "make it work".


For example: a CM Wizard fights as two AF in mass combat, where an AF figure is about three times as good as a LF figure on the mass combat tables.

So, if a D&D-"man" worth of FC is considered more or less equal to a CM-LF figure, then a Wizard as two AF is more or less equivalent to six LF, or six "men" in D&D FC terms. Which is only to say that the D&D M-U FC progression can be made to look a bit neater if you're prepared to squint a certain way

[ODDYSSEUS]

Waysoftheearth:

What you are really saying here is:
A 9th level D&D-M-U fights as 4 men+1 in man-to-man, whereas a CM-Wizard fights as 2 figures in mass combat.

What would a Wizard per Chainmail fight as in Normal Man-to-Man Combat then if not 2 Men?

[ODDYSSEUS]

Strike my last Waysoftheearth. You answered my question before I even asked it. It's almost like I didn't read your post though I assure you I did! So, a reasonable progression would be...

Level   Fighting Capability
10       Wizard or 6 Men

?

[ODDYSSEUS]

How would you translate "?" below when using Fighting Capability in D&D?

Fighting Capability   Normal Combat                Fantastic Combat
3 Men +1                3 Men +1                        N/A
Hero -1                   4 men -1 to one attack     1 Hero -1 to one attack
Hero                       4 men                             1 Hero
Hero +1                  4 men +1 to one attack    1 Hero +1 to one attack
Wizard                    ?                                    1 Wizard
Wizard +1               ?                                    1 Wizard +1 to one attack
Wizard +2               ?                                    1 Wizard +2 to one attack

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question?

Maybe I'm just a fish out of water and this is all just way over my head?

What does "Wizard" actually mean for the mechanics of combat in D&D?

[Desparil]

Jul 25, 2022 20:43:43 GMT -6 ODDYSSEUS said:

What does "Wizard" actually mean for the mechanics of combat in D&D?

In the combat mechanics of D&D it means nothing. Despite the name, the "Alternative Combat System" was always the way D&D combat was intended to be resolved. The Chainmail equivalencies were only provided as a means to cross-promote Chainmail, or for hardcore fans of the CM systems. 

[hamurai]

Jul 25, 2022 20:43:43 GMT -6 ODDYSSEUS said:

How would you translate "?" below when using Fighting Capability in D&D?

Fighting Capability   Normal Combat                               Fantastic Combat
3 Men +1                3 Men +1                                       N/A
Hero -1                   4 men -1 to one attack                    1 Hero -1 to one attack
Hero                       4 men                                            1 Hero
Hero +1                  4 men +1 to one attack                   1 Hero +1 to one attack
Wizard                    2 Armored Foot                               1 Wizard
Wizard +1               2 Armored Foot +1 to one attack      1 Wizard +1 to one attack
Wizard +2               2 Armored Foot +2 to one attack      1 Wizard +2 to one attack

Green are my additions. Also, note that in Fantastic Combat you have 1 attack with 2d6, which is modified accordingly, so "Wizard +1" means 2d6+1 in the Wizard row of the Fantasy Combat Table.

[waysoftheearth]

Jul 25, 2022 20:43:43 GMT -6 ODDYSSEUS said:

What does "Wizard" actually mean for the mechanics of combat in D&D?

The question is ambiguous because there is not one single, well-defined set of "mechanics of combat" in OD&D.

In addition to the more familiar ("Alternative", d20-based) combat system, D&D also has an implicit "default" combat system, which the Alternative system is an alternative to. (These various combat systems are actually just various attack matrices, but that is another topic).

The "default" 2d6-based combat system is, essentially, to use CM man-to-man for combat involving man-types, and the CM FCT (with kills and drivebacks equalling only hits) for combat involving monsters. The +1 to +3 scale die modifiers in the 3LBBs are, arguably, intended for the 2d6 system. Some of these were later "scaled up" to the +1 to +5 range for d20s in Greyhawk.

All of which is to say: the "Wizard" Fighting Capability doesn't have any specific meaning in D&D's Alternative, d20-based combat system. However, "Wizard", "Hero", and "Superhero" (and others like "Giant", "Dragon", and so on) are meaningful fighting capabilities on the FCT, which is meaningful in D&D combat if/when you use the default combat system.

If you want to reconcile these FCT-based FCs with D&D's Alternative, d20-based matrices, then you will need to do some fiddling to get a round peg into a square hole.

[Mushgnome]

(redacted)

[Finarvyn]

Mushgnome, that's pretty much what it in my head, too!

[ODDYSSEUS]

Incorporating Chainmail into D&D: Magic-users



Level   Fighting Capability                         Sidenote I    Sidenote II

1         Man

2         Man +1

3         2 Men

4         2 Men +1

5         3 Men

6         3 Men +1                                         Wizard -4

7         Hero -1 or 4 Men -1                          Wizard -3

8         Hero or 4 Men                                  Wizard -2

9         Hero +1 or 4 Men +1                        Wizard -1

10       Wizard (Hero +1 or 5 Men)                                     Referees are advised to “cap” Fighting Capability at Hero +1 if balance concerns arise during play.

11       Wizard (Hero +1 or 5 Men)

12       Wizard (Hero +1 or 6 Men)                                     6 Men is consistent with Chainmail Wizard.

13       Wizard (Hero +1 or 6 Men)

14       Wizard (Superhero -1 or 7 Men)         Wizard +1

15       Wizard (Superhero -1 or 7 Men)         Wizard +1

16       Wizard (Superhero or 8 Men)             Wizard +2

17       Wizard (Superhero or 8 Men)             Wizard +2

18       Wizard (Superhero +1 or 8 Men +1)   Wizard +3



1st Level

Magic-users can cast spells.

(Consistent with D&D.)

Magic-users acquire books containing the spells they can use, one book for each level.

(Consistent with D&D.)

Magic-users may attempt to develop new spells by conducting magical research.

(Consistent with D&D.)

Magic-users may arm themselves with daggers and staves only.

(Consistent with D&D.)

6th Level

Magic-users can wield magical weapons (enchanted arrows and magical swords).

(Consistent with Chainmail Wizard.)

7th Level

Magic-users can participate in fantastic combat (without wielding magical weapons).

(Consistent with Chainmail Wizard.)

10th Level

Magic-users affect friendly and enemy morale as do Superheroes.

(Consistent with Chainmail Wizard.)

11th Level

Magic-users may manufacture potions, scrolls, and other magical items.

(Consistent with D&D.)

Magic-users may opt to build their own stronghold. Magic-users with castles of their own will have control of a territory similar to the “Barony” of fighters, and they will receive taxes equal to 10 Gold Pieces per inhabitant of the barony per game year.

(Consistent with D&D Errata.)



What do you think?

[Finarvyn]

Looks solid to me. Now make notes for fighters in CM.

[ODDYSSEUS]

Looking over the FCT... Wizards are impressive. They attack well vs elementals and undead and they defend at no lower than 8 vs everything (excepting the weaker Wizards -1, -2, etc. of course).

Would it make sense to provide an attack bonus reflecting their performance on the FCT? Translating to +1 vs elementals and undead, for example?

Naturally, this treatment will eventually be given to the other classes. I simply landed on Wizards first.

[hamurai]

My assumption is, these great attack values subsume spell-casting or, generally, the use of some sort of magic. Otherwise I couldn't believe the performance of Wizards as shown in the FCT.

Yet, if you're still inclined to look at the table from a D&D point of view, one should note that the FM performs as Superhero on the FCT at 8th level. At the same level, the Magic-User would be a "Hero" on the FCT, or, when looking at the MU titles (and looking at the entries from the CM side again), at 8th level they'd perform as "Warlock", who are "Wizard -2" (CM p. 30) according to CM's Wizard description.

At 10th level, when the MU actually performs as "Wizard", the FM is at "Superhero +1" which raises their defenses to at least 8 against all enemies.

Sidenotes:
All that is my/our understanding of the FCT.

I know others who understand it differently, using the numbers of the FCT only as Saving Throws against the automatically successful attacks. The argument here is the literal interpretation of the note of the Wizard's entry: "Note that other magic users are at lesser values" (emphasis mine), which means, they lower the numbers. As lower numbers for attackers would mean they perform better, it must be the other way around and the use lower numbers to defend themselves when rolling their Saving Throws.

I understand the argument but hold against it that it doesn't make sense to add the note to the attacking Wizard column, too. Therefore, "lesser" here just means "worse".