Slime monster hit requirement

[delta]

A slime-monster with metal-corrosion power (e.g., black pudding, gray ooze, green slime) goes after a fighter in metal armor. To trigger the corrosion power, does the slime need to roll to hit vs. normal AC, reduced AC, or something else? And why?

(Related to prior discussion here.)

[captainjapan]

I can't find any indication that a referee is meant to roll to hit for any of the oozes. They're not conventional monsters. An ooze encounter somehow makes more sense in the context of poisons and fire damage and such.

The only one for whose attack a defense is listed is the gelatinous cube (the save vs paralyzation). It's also the only ooze carrying treasure.

I wonder if the surprise roll wouldn't more the deciding factor for ooze encounters. Is it necessarily a sure thing that you know when and for how long an ooze has been feasting on a portion of your armor?

[Desparil]

According to the description of black pudding, if you run through it then your foot and leg armor corrodes and falls off in 1 turn. If you're running through it rather than fighting it, then I presume this to be an exploration turn and not a combat round. Also important is that this is regardless of whether the pudding hits with any free hacks it gets as you run from it, so it seems like corrosion is pretty much automatic with any significant exposure. So in melee I would say it worsens your metal armor's AC by 1 point for every melee round it spends attacking you.

Green slime seems like the idea is that if it hits you it's on exposed flesh and can only be removed by burning/cutting it off, whereas if it misses then it lands on some article of clothing or equipment which must then be discarded/burnt. If it's on the ground I think it's pretty clear it would get your boots, and if it drops from the ceiling then probably randomly roll to choose between cloak or helmet - and if you're not wearing the indicated overgarment, it gets your armor/robes/clothes instead.

[Mordorandor]

Jan 15, 2022 15:13:04 GMT -6 delta said:

A slime-monster with metal-corrosion power (e.g., black pudding, gray ooze, green slime) goes after a fighter in metal armor. To trigger the corrosion power, does the slime need to roll to hit vs. normal AC, reduced AC, or something else? And why?

(Related to prior discussion here.)

Ochre Jelly, Black Pudding, and Gray Ooze have MV, AC, and HD. Green Slime has no MV nor AC but has HD.

Slime/ooze/puddings with all three stats fight as any other monster would when in melee. A hit vs AC 9 would normally hit an unarmored foe, so a result that hits AC 9 hits the armor, while a result that hits the foe’s AC hits exposed flesh.

Green Slime sticks to whatever touches it. It’s non-mobile; it’s likely on the floor(?) but might stick to vertical surfaces? (AD&D has it dropping on foes.) Adjudicate the situation accordingly. Stepped on with a boot? Simply sticks to boot. Hand attempts to take slime off boot? The fun begins.

[cometaryorbit]

Jan 15, 2022 22:29:14 GMT -6 Mordorandor said:

Jan 15, 2022 15:13:04 GMT -6 delta said:

A slime-monster with metal-corrosion power (e.g., black pudding, gray ooze, green slime) goes after a fighter in metal armor. To trigger the corrosion power, does the slime need to roll to hit vs. normal AC, reduced AC, or something else? And why?

(Related to prior discussion here.)

Ochre Jelly, Black Pudding, and Gray Ooze have MV, AC, and HD. Green Slime has no MV nor AC but has HD.

Slime/ooze/puddings with all three stats fight as any other monster would when in melee. A hit vs AC 9 would normally hit an unarmored foe, so a result that hits AC 9 hits the armor, while a result that hits the foe’s AC hits exposed flesh.

Green Slime sticks to whatever touches it. It’s non-mobile; it’s likely on the floor(?) but might stick to vertical surfaces? (AD&D has it dropping on foes.) Adjudicate the situation accordingly. Stepped on with a boot? Simply sticks to boot. Hand attempts to take slime off boot? The fun begins.

I agree Ochre Jelly/Black Pudding/Gray Ooze work like normal monsters, Green Slime less so, Yellow Mold even less so (it doesn't even have HD).

I am not sure if a normal hit from a Black Pudding is meant to destroy armor or not.

"Black Puddings dissolve wood, corrode metal at a reasonably fast rate, have no effect on stone, and cause three dice of damage to exposed flesh. If an armored character runs through a Black Pudding the monster’s corrosive power will eat away the foot and leg protection of the armor so that it will fall-away next turn."

I can see two ways to read this:

- it takes some time to dissolve metal ("reasonably fast" but not instant), so running through it (totally immersing the armor boot in the Pudding) will work, but simply a brief strike against a shield or metal armor would not meaningfully damage the armor. (Perhaps this would just act as a normal hit .... one die of damage, not three dice since it's not "exposed flesh"?)

- a hit from a Pudding will damage the armor for a metal-armored character (possibly with no hit point damage to the character) or deal three dice of damage to an unarmored character (not clear what happens if the character is in leather armor...)

It doesn't say anything about destroying weapons that hit it, so maybe that leans toward the first?

[Desparil]

Jan 16, 2022 15:08:00 GMT -6 cometaryorbit said:

- a hit from a Pudding will damage the armor for a metal-armored character (possibly with no hit point damage to the character) or deal three dice of damage to an unarmored character (not clear what happens if the character is in leather armor...)

I would presume that since it dissolves flesh, it will dissolve leather. Wouldn't be a very good scavenger if it couldn't consume anything with a thick hide.

[cometaryorbit]

Jan 16, 2022 15:14:44 GMT -6 Desparil said:

Jan 16, 2022 15:08:00 GMT -6 cometaryorbit said:

- a hit from a Pudding will damage the armor for a metal-armored character (possibly with no hit point damage to the character) or deal three dice of damage to an unarmored character (not clear what happens if the character is in leather armor...)

I would presume that since it dissolves flesh, it will dissolve leather. Wouldn't be a very good scavenger if it couldn't consume anything with a thick hide.

I agree it would destroy the leather; IMO the question is more (under this interpretation) does it do...

- no damage on the first hit (but the leather armor will be destroyed by the next round so next hit will be three dice as against "exposed flesh");

- one die of damage (since it's neither metal nor exposed flesh, so default to the basic one die), then three dice on later hits since the armor will be gone;

- three dice of damage from the first hit?

[Desparil]

Jan 16, 2022 15:18:29 GMT -6 cometaryorbit said:

Jan 16, 2022 15:14:44 GMT -6 Desparil said:

I would presume that since it dissolves flesh, it will dissolve leather. Wouldn't be a very good scavenger if it couldn't consume anything with a thick hide.

I agree it would destroy the leather; IMO the question is more (under this interpretation) does it do...

- no damage on the first hit (but the leather armor will be destroyed by the next round so next hit will be three dice as against "exposed flesh");

- one die of damage (since it's neither metal nor exposed flesh, so default to the basic one die), then three dice on later hits since the armor will be gone;

- three dice of damage from the first hit?

My thinking was that leather armor and clothing are eaten through more or less instantly - it can consume a horse in a single round, so I just don't see leather armor being any kind of barrier to it. I would say full damage.

[cometaryorbit]

I can totally see that.

I do kind of feel like "exposed flesh" means no armor, though. And killing a horse in one round (three dice of damage vs. 2 to 3 HD) doesn't necessarily mean the horse is completely dissolved/consumed, just that it's suffered lethal damage.

[Mordorandor]

Jan 16, 2022 15:08:00 GMT -6 cometaryorbit said:

I can see two ways to read this: it takes some time to dissolve metal ("reasonably fast" but not instant), so running through it (totally immersing the armor boot in the Pudding) will work, but simply a brief strike against a shield or metal armor would not meaningfully damage the armor. (Perhaps this would just act as a normal hit .... one die of damage, not three dice since it's not "exposed flesh"?)

The way I’d adjudicate this is…

(a) running through a black pudding is auto-hit in melee. With armored leggings on, the armored leggings dissolve next turn, so let’s say end of next turn. So on turn 1, character runs through pudding; on turn 2, character benefits from armored leggings; on turn 3, character no longer has benefit of armored leggings.

(b) With shields and armor, a hit against AC 9 or better hits the shield or armor that turn. The shield or armor functions for the next turn and is nonfunctional/gone the 3rd turn.

I suspect Gary created these to meaningfully damage the armor. 🙂

[cometaryorbit]

Jan 16, 2022 19:18:48 GMT -6 Mordorandor said:

I suspect Gary created these to meaningfully damage the armor. 🙂

Hmm, certainly possible. I had kind of seen that as being why Rust Monsters were invented (later); I saw these as being more scavengers that can destroy treasure/useful items if left unattended. But I really don't have anything to base that on (except the term "cleanup crew", I guess).

[howandwhy99]

To start, it really depends for each monster.

Only creatures which can take actions can engage with initiative, i.e. initiate action. (This is regardless of whether the action is opposed to or not. If so, initiative is rolled).

Any combat attack, a strike, requires a To Hit roll. Short of very powerful magic (true strike, magic missile, etc)

Acid depends on its acidity level. But it can etch metal and destroy leather or human tissues.

Green slime, for me, is reactive. Not an attacker but an effect save.

A black pudding acid operates kinda similarly, but will now also roll To Hit on its initiative as an attacker. No save is made except by defending / worn items affected. Normal melee defending is your reacting against.

But it's still a bad idea to fall into black pudding too. Save to avoid.

[dicebro]

Green slime encounters are more like traps than anything else. “Traps are usually sprung by a roll of a 1 or a 2 when any character passes over or by them.” Contact is made on a 1 or a 2. There is no attack roll.

[retrorob]

I've always normally rolled to-hit vs non-modified AC. You were hit by green slime - remove your armor. You don't have armor - sorry, but you're turning into slime, unless you burn it out quickly enough (getting some damage in the process).

But I like dicebro's idea of trap-like monster

[Quantomoo2]

I have started treating slimes and such more like amoebas and it seems to work pretty well.

The slime makes an attack and if it hits (ignoring armor but not dexterity) it gloms onto the character.

Then it progressively begins to suck in and work through the characters defences. First hit damages armor (-1 AC), second turn it automatically destroys the armor, third and onward it deals automatic damage to the character's flesh. All this assuming the characters dont separate the two somehow.

I do, however, like the idea that it can hit flesh immediately with a good enough attack roll.

[delta]

Feb 10, 2022 12:03:35 GMT -6 Quantomoo2 said:

I have started treating slimes and such more like amoebas and it seems to work pretty well.

The slime makes an attack and if it hits (ignoring armor but not dexterity) it gloms onto the character.

Then it progressively begins to suck in and work through the characters defences. First hit damages armor (-1 AC), second turn it automatically destroys the armor, third and onward it deals automatic damage to the character's flesh. All this assuming the characters dont separate the two somehow.

I do, however, like the idea that it can hit flesh immediately with a good enough attack roll.

That was pretty much exactly what I was doing until I asked around and found how uncommon an interpretation it was. Admittedly it's kind of off-book by RAW.