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Post by geoffrey on Oct 13, 2008 11:02:58 GMT -6
I should add that my Carcosa players tend to be about (using AD&D terms) 70% lawful evil and 30% lawful neutral. They are an amoral lot who do not hesitate to sacrifice humans in order to acquire sorcerous power.
That said, there is nothing preventing a good and noble man from being a sorcerer (though it is rare). Such a sorcerer would generally limit himself to rituals of banishing, which do not require human sacrifice (and which are the only rituals that are not dangerous to the sorcerer). Further, in rare and peculiar circumstances, a man justly condemned to death might be an acceptable sacrifice for one of the other sorts of rituals.
In short, most Carcosan sorcerers are evil and inhuman. That is intentional. It gives the setting more of a Lovecraftian and R. E. Howard vibe. In the stories of both those authors most sorcerers are wicked.
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tank
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 58
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Post by tank on Oct 14, 2008 6:21:56 GMT -6
Like Cadriel, I just received my Carcosa booklet as well. I haven't read through the entire thing yet, but I've scanned most of it. My first impression upon opening the package was "wow, this is really thick." There's a lot of material in there; ninety pages is more than you think. The whole booklet looks good too - the fonts, the spacing, the descriptions. My wife -- who doesn't play D&D and thinks it a little strange that grown men do -- even looked over my shoulder and said "wow, you even got a hex map."
With that hex map and lots of keyed descriptions - like the Fane of the Weird God, the world is pretty much all set up to go. Carcosa is ready for adventuring essentially straight out of the box.
I think my favorite part that I've read through so far is the Sorceries. Each is distinct, extremely well detailed, and has its own purpose and flavor. I found myself reading down the list and enjoying each one. I can see what Geof was saying when most of his adventures focus on traveling the map in search of components for these rituals.
Another really cool part is a set of tables for designing Space Alien ray guns, including a table listing 94 elements (from H to Pu), each of which may deal different damage to certain types of men. And the very idea of a Barium Ray Gun is appealing.
Well done, Geof!
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korgoth
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 323
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Post by korgoth on Oct 14, 2008 10:48:15 GMT -6
I'm really looking forward to this. Hurry up, vile postal service!  |
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Post by coffee on Oct 14, 2008 10:50:57 GMT -6
I got mine today, too. I'm at work, so I've barely scratched the surface. But I have to say, it really looks right. And that's important.
It's spell-checked better than the originals, too. (There's verisimilitude, and then there's just sloppy work -- this is well done.)
I'm curious: What font did you use for the text? Because it looks to me to be spot on for the original books.
All in all, a very impressive book. I can't wait to read it in detail!
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Post by blackbarn on Oct 14, 2008 13:43:41 GMT -6
Just sent my payment. Can't wait to see the book!
Geoffrey, out of curiosity, how compatible are the contents of this supplement with Holmes D&D, particularly your "Holmes as a complete game" concept? Have you run Carcosa that way?
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 14, 2008 17:29:21 GMT -6
I got mine today, too. I'm at work, so I've barely scratched the surface. But I have to say, it really looks right. And that's important. It's spell-checked better than the originals, too. (There's verisimilitude, and then there's just sloppy work -- this is well done.) I'm curious: What font did you use for the text? Because it looks to me to be spot on for the original books. Thank you! I tried to make it look like it was printed in 1974-75. I used 9-point Arial font for the text. I compared various fonts closely with the font used in the 1974 LBBs, and 9-point Arial was the closest. |
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 14, 2008 17:36:13 GMT -6
Geoffrey, out of curiosity, how compatible are the contents of this supplement with Holmes D&D, particularly your "Holmes as a complete game" concept? Have you run Carcosa that way? While Supplement V: CARCOSA is specifically designed to be used with the 1974 rules, it can be used quite easily with any pre-3rd edition version of A/D&D, as well as with Castles & Crusades and Hackmaster. CARCOSA would therefore work well with the Holmes rulebook. That said, a 3rd-level cap for all PCs and NPCs (as in a pure Holmes campaign) would not be my first choice for a Carcosa campaign. I've ran my Carcosa campaign under three rule sets: 1. I started with a hybrid of AD&D and Gamma World (1st edition of both), as detailed in the "Mutants & Magic" section of the DMG. 2. I then switched to the C&C rules for awhile. 3. Now I've been using the OD&D rules (without the first four supplements) for my campaign. The OD&D rules have been the best fit with Carcosa, and the most fun. |
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Post by grodog on Oct 15, 2008 22:38:54 GMT -6
Still waiting on the postman  |
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 16, 2008 8:42:10 GMT -6
Still waiting on the postman It was on Tueday that I mailed your package, and the postman said it would take 5-9 business days. That means you'll probably get your package next week. |
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Post by driver on Oct 16, 2008 10:22:55 GMT -6
I'm not really active in gaming these days because of other demands, but rest assured I'll be ordering this the next time I have some discretionary funds lying around. I believe we share a lot of the same influences and predilections, so it should be right in my wheelhouse.
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korgoth
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 323
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Post by korgoth on Oct 16, 2008 15:06:41 GMT -6
Still waiting on the postman I've been hovering around my postbox as well. Today, a single lousy piece of junk mail. Vile postperson! |
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Post by harami2000 on Oct 18, 2008 9:24:03 GMT -6
geoffrey: Quick couple of 02c questions/points, aside, which I was going to post on DF once the furore died down there. (Elsewhere, I personally discuss w/people causing issues on threads rather than locking those when there's clearly benefit to additional discussion but that's up to their admins, I guess).1. How much of that negative reaction d'you think might've been avoided by the simple expediency of not "claiming" (perceived) common heritage by the addition "Supplement V" to the title? Doubly so, since you're rather stomping on Rob Kuntz's toes by accident or design. 2. As an adjunct, appealing to The Book of Ebon Bindings doesn't work in that context since that's not a TSR product and "forcing" common heritage on controversial matters which people do not wish probably didn't "help" in that case. Thoughts? Regards & Best wishes, David. p.s./aside: The "Remember, D&D is not designed to be played by evil characters" DMG ref. on DF got a smile from me with regards to possible sales/PR-speak vs. the original Greyhawk campaign. 
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Post by badger2305 on Oct 18, 2008 12:31:53 GMT -6
For what it's worth, and having known Prof. Barker for nearly thirty years, I doubt very much that he would object to Carcosa's sorcery rituals. If anything, he might say they were potentially a bit derivative - but he wouldn't object to the content.
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 18, 2008 14:10:06 GMT -6
geoffrey: Quick couple of 02c questions/points, aside, which I was going to post on DF once the furore died down there. (Elsewhere, I personally discuss w/people causing issues on threads rather than locking those when there's clearly benefit to additional discussion but that's up to their admins, I guess).1. How much of that negative reaction d'you think might've been avoided by the simple expediency of not "claiming" (perceived) common heritage by the addition "Supplement V" to the title? Doubly so, since you're rather stomping on Rob Kuntz's toes by accident or design. 2. As an adjunct, appealing to The Book of Ebon Bindings doesn't work in that context since that's not a TSR product and "forcing" common heritage on controversial matters which people do not wish probably didn't "help" in that case. Thoughts? Regards & Best wishes, David. p.s./aside: The "Remember, D&D is not designed to be played by evil characters" DMG ref. on DF got a smile from me with regards to possible sales/PR-speak vs. the original Greyhawk campaign. I never knew about a possible Rob Kuntz Supplement V until right now. What a cool thing that would be! I greatly admire Rob's work, both old and new. (I love his Bottle City module. It's one of the best of all time.) I honestly don't know how much controversy could have been avoided by not calling my book Supplement V. In any case, the title is all in fun. Further than that, I hope and trust that no rancor regarding my little book will find its way onto these boards. I want everyone who buys my book to like it. If anyone is disappointed with it, just return it to me in new condition and I'll refund your money. I welcome comments both negative and positive regarding CARCOSA. I'd love to hear what people think about, for example, the psioncs system, the Space Alien technology, the monsters, the hex descriptions ,etc. |
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 18, 2008 14:12:48 GMT -6
For what it's worth, and having known Prof. Barker for nearly thirty years, I doubt very much that he would object to Carcosa's sorcery rituals. If anything, he might say they were potentially a bit derivative - but he wouldn't object to the content. Thank you. Prof. Barker's The Book of Ebon Bindings is such a major influence on me that I noticed phrases from his book unconsciously reproduced in mine. I hope and trust he would take any such similarities as a compliment. |
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Post by harami2000 on Oct 18, 2008 15:08:21 GMT -6
Further than that, I hope and trust that no rancor regarding my little book will find its way onto these boards. *nods* Agreed. Asked here regarding that background and your p.o.v. simply because "elsewhere" was mostly either getting carried away and/or locked. Possibly the best board on which to enquire, anyhow. I honestly don't know how much controversy could have been avoided by not calling my book Supplement V. In any case, the title is all in fun. Heh, heh... Would be interesting to rewind time to see whether that might've played out differently, otherwise. Staking a "claim", inadvertently or otherwise, on an old-time gamers' heritage through that title usage certainly reads as a possible aggravating factor on what's already blue touchpaper content to a good number of people (regardless of the actual intention underlying its inclusion). I do know some of those who've "battled" the media tide back in the day and since telling people that RPing with D&D (their p.o.v.) doesn't contain/revolve around (delete as applicable) "that sort of thing" and are thus somewhat aversive to any such "implications": probably even more so with such a direct one implied in your title. Will be sure to bring that up for discussion. ^^ All of which is probably unfairly over-focused on the part rather than the whole of your work, Geoffrey. Thank you for the clarification. I never knew about a possible Rob Kuntz Supplement V until right now. What a cool thing that would be! I greatly admire Rob's work, both old and new. Agreed to all that. [briefly OT/apologies] The 1975 "Supplement V" typescript is somewhat barebones but there's sufficient other early content around which could've helped that grow in other directions if that "original" wasn't deemed enough on which to build a "rules supplement" in its own right. In particular the old maps and detailed background; the former of which don't exist to that extent for Greyhawk (afaik) and probably not for Blackmoor either, for a pre-D&D publication date (*flags as possible question for Dave*). I got as far as asking Rob about cover artwork and various high-level questions then started to delve for further background material but that didn't get any further at the time. (I was unaware Kynan had snagged the original ms. at that point, so that might've been a factor since I was probing in that direction). Anyhow; </OT> d. |
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Post by greyharp on Oct 18, 2008 15:22:42 GMT -6
Carcosa has had a positive influence on me and I haven't even received my copy yet. Doing some research into the name, I discovered the original reference in Ambrose Bierce's writings. Now it just happens that I have a copy of The Collected Writings of Ambrose Bierce, but had never cracked the cover. So to read the original short story was like an archaeologist discovering an artifact from the past.
This lead me down the path of researching the roots of fantasy writing and following that track along, seeing who influenced who. Of some authors I already had some of their books, others have been added to my hugely growing wish list. Thanks to the wonderful resource of Project Gutenberg, I was able to gain access to many early writings that had a direct influence on the authors, who in turn influenced Gary Gygax and crew - and who in turn influenced me.
This has been an exciting and wonderful journey, touched off by Geoffrey and his passion for the past and the roots of our hobby. Even though I can only go by the excerpts I have read so far, I am quite certain the distinguished authors on which Carcosa is based, would truly be impressed at Geoffrey's achievement of successfully recreating the atmosphere of the worlds they wrote about.
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 18, 2008 15:55:53 GMT -6
Greyharp, thank you for your kind words. A fascinating book is the short story collection entitled The Hastur Cycle, edited by Robert M. Price and published by Chaosium. In his introduction, Price recounts the Carcosan literary trajectory of Ambrose Bierce --> Robert Chambers --> H. P. Lovecraft --> August Derleth. The stories in the collection seek to follow that trajectory. The very last story in the book is a mere 3-pages written by Lin Carter (whose Cthulhu Mythos stories are, IMO, much under-rated) entitled "Carcosa Story about Hali". It reads like a translation of an ancient and alien text. It nails the type of feel I'm trying for in my own Carcosa. Thus, the Geoffrey McKinney Carcosa is a descendant of the Lin Carter Carcosa and the AD&D Deities & Demigods Carcosa. |
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Post by greyharp on Oct 18, 2008 16:16:14 GMT -6
Thanks for the tip Geoffrey, I'll see if I can track down a copy. |
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Post by grodog on Oct 18, 2008 23:12:24 GMT -6
Carcosa arrived in Wichita today Geoff. Hopefully I'll have some time to read them this upcoming week. I'm somewhat leery given the reactions thus far, but I am also happy to form my own conclusions about the book directly. It's good of you to offer refunds if the book's not one I'll be willing to use; thank you I wouldn't worry about your calling the book Supplement V: Rob certainly wouldn't care about that, IMO, and other while some other old TSR folks seem to be a bit testy about that title (as well as Rob's "claim" to it), I don't think you should really see any negative fallout from that aspect of the book. |
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 18, 2008 23:42:12 GMT -6
Carcosa arrived in Wichita today Geoff. Hopefully I'll have some time to read them this upcoming week. I'm somewhat leery given the reactions thus far, but I am also happy to form my own conclusions about the book directly. It's good of you to offer refunds if the book's not one I'll be willing to use; thank you I'm glad your books arrived! I'm optimistic that you'll decide the books are worth the money. The parts that have caused some controversy are a mere fraction of the content. I never expected any referee to use everything in the book. Instead, I expect each referee to pick and choose what he likes. I think and hope you'll find a lot to like in my Carcosa book. That said, I will certainly refund the money of any disappointed buyer. I want ALL my buyers to be satisfied, hopefully with the book, and if not with the fact that they got their money back. |
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Post by Random on Oct 19, 2008 7:48:10 GMT -6
That said, I will certainly refund the money of any disappointed buyer. I want ALL my buyers to be satisfied, hopefully with the book, and if not with the fact that they got their money back. By the way, props to you for thinking to release hard copies the way you're doing. It allows for you to refund people without getting ripped off by a few (like someone demanding a refund and keeping the pdf anyways). My main complaint is that a thorough review should have come before the orders, since there are many who don't like to get hit with certain things while they page through a new rpg supplement. (Not trying to stir things here, I'm just stating my opinion, which isn't really an attack.) |
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 19, 2008 8:16:50 GMT -6
My main complaint is that a thorough review should have come before the orders, since there are many who don't like to get hit with certain things while they page through a new rpg supplement. Hi, Random! My book was released on Oct. 8th. On Sept. 29th I posted the following both in this thread and in my announcement thread on dragonsfoot: "The human sacrifice aspect of sorcery makes sorcery a very grisly thing. It's as horrific as the magic system in M. A. R. Barker's Book of Ebon Bindings. If any one is put-off by this sort of amoral cruelty and cold-bloodedness, Supplement V: CARCOSA probably won't be to your liking." On Oct. 10th on my blog I posted comparative quotes from my book and from Prof. Barker's The Book of Ebon Bindings ( carcosa-geoffrey.blogspot.com/2008/10/sorcery-in-carcosa-part-ii-or-who.html ). Also on my blog, right above the ordering information, is a bolded warning regarding the content of the book. I, too, don't want anyone who buys Supplement V: CARCOSA to get something significantly different than what he expects. To properly underscore my debt to the great M. A. R. Barker, I'd like to direct everyone's attention to my paean of praise I wrote in his honor: www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27929I'd also like to encourage everyone to buy Barker's stuff from Tita's House of Games: www.tekumel.com/tita/ Great products and great service. Lastly, I'd like to encourage everyone to buy Barker's The Book of Ebon Bindings, which is so influential on Carcosa's sorcery. The book is a bargain at $9.95 here: www.tekumel.com/tita/pricelist.html |
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Post by Random on Oct 19, 2008 10:38:02 GMT -6
Maybe I'm just blind and missed the comparisons to the Book of Ebon Bindings, which I had never heard of anyways.
Anyways, cheers!
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Post by badger2305 on Oct 19, 2008 11:06:40 GMT -6
The Book of Ebon Bindings is written as a translation of an actual text, and contains no game mechanics. That having been said, it contains details on dozens of interplanar beings that would likely be thought of as "demons" in a D&D sense. It is very particular to Tekumel as a world, and therefore can be seen as a treatise on demonology - along with innumerable stories about what happens to summoners who lose control of what they have summoned (e.g. one poor fellow who ends up in a small completely enclosed box with no access to the outside world, forever, as an escape from another demon out to get him - and that by far is not the worst).
Frankly, in nearly thirty years of playing Tekumel (and more than twenty with Prof. Barker), I can't recall a single ritual done in exact detail at the gaming table. The book exists as a "cautionary tale," so to speak.
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Post by blackbarn on Oct 19, 2008 12:28:03 GMT -6
With all due respect to Rob, if he had wanted to create a Supplement V of his own he has had many, many years in which to do so. Geoffrey has proven it's possible... all it takes is the will to work and complete it. I also don't see Carcossa's use of that title as being a challenge, or precluding someone else from making a Supplement V if they so choose. It's not like it's official.
Still waiting for my copy, with no regrets about purchasing it (before the DF incident, I might add.) I want to have a copy because I think Geoffrey has done something neat, and would like to see it for myself, all gathered in one book. I may use some of it, or I may use none of it, but I'm certainly not going to complain about what's in it.
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 19, 2008 14:45:58 GMT -6
Frankly, in nearly thirty years of playing Tekumel (and more than twenty with Prof. Barker), I can't recall a single ritual done in exact detail at the gaming table. My group in 28 years of gaming (with almost 3 years of gaming on Carcosa) has also never done a ritual in detail at the gaming table. The performance of any given ritual (regardless of its casting time) takes mere seconds of real time. |
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 19, 2008 14:47:50 GMT -6
I also don't see Carcossa's use of that title as being a challenge, or precluding someone else from making a Supplement V if they so choose. It's not like it's official. Exactly. The title is all in fun and to help identify itself an OD&D supplement. |
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Post by driver on Oct 19, 2008 17:16:13 GMT -6
I don't have a dog in the fight one way or another as far as "Supplement V" and inspirational debts to other authors. I do find it funny that there's so much of a tempest in a teapot, given that Gygax et al made their fortunes playing fast and loose with other people's IP -- to the point that you can open any of the D&D books to just about any page and find something lifted blatantly from some S&S potboiler or another. Homages are firmly within the OD&D and RPG tradition, and the sacred Old School Guys certainly never had any compunctions about it.
I also had the (possibly incorrect) impression that RJK doesn't have any more of a legal claim to the OD&D license than anyone else.
As for graphic depictions of rituals, both the source literature and on occasion the game itself are hardly bare of this sort of thing -- rot grubs, ear seekers, squidmen who yank the brains out of living things -- not to mention the cover of Eldritch Wizardry. It wasn't until Moldvay that the hobby started getting sanitized.
I'm admittedly biased because I enjoy more sinister S&S-themed material, and because I consider many of the sacred authorial cows of old school gaming to have frequently operated on the wrong side of the "talented syncretist"/"shameless plagiarist" line.
(Note: *NOT* including M.A.R. Barker in that evaluation.)
Just my .02c.
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Post by blackbarn on Oct 20, 2008 12:32:46 GMT -6
I just got my copy in the mail and had a look through it. Wow, talk about a lot of controversy over nothing... the ritual details are a very minor part of the overall book, which holds a wide variety of other great material. I doubt I would have even given the ritual descriptions a second thought if I hadn't seen the arguments online before reading them, except to think that the inhumanness of them adds to the mood of the setting.
Geoffrey, you've made something pretty cool here. I hope most people will be able to see that and give it a chance despite the negative spin some want to put on the work.
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