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Post by Otto Harkaman on Oct 20, 2021 18:39:52 GMT -6
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Post by Desparil on Oct 21, 2021 0:00:07 GMT -6
Changing jihad to crusade alters the particular flavor of the Fremen that Frank Herbert built into the story. That change is reflective of the general vilification of Christianity and hand-waving of the atrocities of that other religion that has been happening culturally in the West, and it is disappointing - even alarming - to say the least. I didn't see it as a vilification of Christianity - quite the opposite. I saw it as shying away from the negative connotations that jihad carries, because in the context of Dune jihad is shown in a positive light - both the ancient Butlerian Jihad to save mankind from destruction by artificial intelligence, and also Paul Muad'Dib's jihad against House Harkonnen (and later against House Corrino when the emperor chose to support the Harkonnens) which is presented as righteous and justified given their atrocities against both House Atreides and the Fremen populace. Crusade is more palatable to the moviegoing public as a word for what the protagonist is doing; jihad is for bad guys. |
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aramis
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Post by aramis on Oct 21, 2021 3:33:29 GMT -6
Changing jihad to crusade alters the particular flavor of the Fremen that Frank Herbert built into the story. That change is reflective of the general vilification of Christianity and hand-waving of the atrocities of that other religion that has been happening culturally in the West, and it is disappointing - even alarming - to say the least. I didn't see it as a vilification of Christianity - quite the opposite. I saw it as shying away from the negative connotations that jihad carries, because in the context of Dune jihad is shown in a positive light - both the ancient Butlerian Jihad to save mankind from destruction by artificial intelligence, and also Paul Muad'Dib's jihad against House Harkonnen (and later against House Corrino when the emperor chose to support the Harkonnens) which is presented as righteous and justified given their atrocities against both House Atreides and the Fremen populace. Crusade is more palatable to the moviegoing public as a word for what the protagonist is doing; jihad is for bad guys. Interesting but problematic take... Dune as a whole is seriously cynical about religion... religions of the Dune universe are, largelyt, syncretic hybrids created by various groups for political purposes... The OC Bible itself is a compromise work designed to appease as many as possible, while instilling the values of the Butlerian Jihad and the nascent Empire. It seems to have worked rather well in setting for about 10200 years.... The quotes from it are twists of extant modern scriptures from various faiths. And by labelling it "Catholic," it's making a serious dig. The Catholic Canon was dogmatically declared closed in 1563 (Trent); the OC portion is an interesting reference... "Orange Catholic" can have several meanings current meanings... none of them exactly pleasant. It's rarely a reference to the Utrech union, it's often a derogatory term for Catholics of North Ireland who don't want reunification, it's a dubious use by the Diocese of Orange (Orange County, CA, USA)... And the OCB is explained as syncretism in the first book's glossary, it's a statement that it's a heresy from the Catholic (be they Roman or Eastern) churches... It's a metaphor, in a way, for the kind of syncretism in certain restorationist sects... New books added to teach the new interpretations... As a Ruthenian Catholic, I'm not offended, per se, by it, but I do see it as a a dig at my church via its union with Rome... No proper Catholic would accept new books. All the religions mentioned in the books are syncretic, and that's done to make it not a direct dig at the members of those faiths.... but it also can lampoon them... (There's no doubt that Waff is some form of Muslim, for example.) |
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Post by Desparil on Oct 21, 2021 14:49:56 GMT -6
I didn't see it as a vilification of Christianity - quite the opposite. I saw it as shying away from the negative connotations that jihad carries, because in the context of Dune jihad is shown in a positive light - both the ancient Butlerian Jihad to save mankind from destruction by artificial intelligence, and also Paul Muad'Dib's jihad against House Harkonnen (and later against House Corrino when the emperor chose to support the Harkonnens) which is presented as righteous and justified given their atrocities against both House Atreides and the Fremen populace. Crusade is more palatable to the moviegoing public as a word for what the protagonist is doing; jihad is for bad guys. Interesting but problematic take... Dune as a whole is seriously cynical about religion... religions of the Dune universe are, largelyt, syncretic hybrids created by various groups for political purposes... The OC Bible itself is a compromise work designed to appease as many as possible, while instilling the values of the Butlerian Jihad and the nascent Empire. It seems to have worked rather well in setting for about 10200 years.... The quotes from it are twists of extant modern scriptures from various faiths. And by labelling it "Catholic," it's making a serious dig. The Catholic Canon was dogmatically declared closed in 1563 (Trent); the OC portion is an interesting reference... "Orange Catholic" can have several meanings current meanings... none of them exactly pleasant. It's rarely a reference to the Utrech union, it's often a derogatory term for Catholics of North Ireland who don't want reunification, it's a dubious use by the Diocese of Orange (Orange County, CA, USA)... And the OCB is explained as syncretism in the first book's glossary, it's a statement that it's a heresy from the Catholic (be they Roman or Eastern) churches... It's a metaphor, in a way, for the kind of syncretism in certain restorationist sects... New books added to teach the new interpretations... As a Ruthenian Catholic, I'm not offended, per se, by it, but I do see it as a a dig at my church via its union with Rome... No proper Catholic would accept new books. All the religions mentioned in the books are syncretic, and that's done to make it not a direct dig at the members of those faiths.... but it also can lampoon them... (There's no doubt that Waff is some form of Muslim, for example.) I'm aware of the background of the fictional religion in Dune. I'm talking about specifically the word jihad, which is used in reference to two particular wars, and in both cases it involves causes that a reader would be expected to sympathize with - the cause of saving humanity from machines 10,000 years before the story takes place and the cause that is taken up by the hero of the main story. My point was that, being published in 1965, not even the Iranian Revolution had occurred yet, let alone 9/11 or other modern events that have pulled the term "jihad" out of obscurity and into the mainstream - and not in a good way. So "crusade" is a natural substitute to appease American public, since in contemporary English it's pretty much shed all sense of value judgment; whether a crusade is for a good or bad cause is context-dependent. |
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Post by ahabicher on Oct 22, 2021 2:14:54 GMT -6
I have all the books, and I am done with movie versions of it -- especially if those movie versions bend to audience sensibilities. Softened movie versions is what Leto II would give the masses, like he shows "museum fremen" for tourists on Arrakis.
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Post by tdenmark on Oct 22, 2021 2:33:40 GMT -6
Changing jihad to crusade alters the particular flavor of the Fremen that Frank Herbert built into the story. That change is reflective of the general vilification of Christianity and hand-waving of the atrocities of that other religion that has been happening culturally in the West, and it is disappointing - even alarming - to say the least. I didn't see it as a vilification of Christianity - quite the opposite. I saw it as shying away from the negative connotations that jihad carries, because in the context of Dune jihad is shown in a positive light - both the ancient Butlerian Jihad to save mankind from destruction by artificial intelligence, and also Paul Muad'Dib's jihad against House Harkonnen (and later against House Corrino when the emperor chose to support the Harkonnens) which is presented as righteous and justified given their atrocities against both House Atreides and the Fremen populace. Crusade is more palatable to the moviegoing public as a word for what the protagonist is doing; jihad is for bad guys. That isn't why they changed jihad to crusade. |
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aramis
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Post by aramis on Oct 22, 2021 2:34:41 GMT -6
Saw the movie. It's JUST Part 1 of the novel. And not even all of that. It ends before Jamis' funeral. It's good looking. The Atreidies are in black, but the banners are green and red...
A minor change in the end of Liet. Yeah, Liet's a woman... but she has the needed body language and gravitas.
Far more text faithful than de Laurentis, far more visually and scenically accurate than SyFyChannel.
Doesn't feel rushed, doesn't feel padded.
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Post by Otto Harkaman on Oct 22, 2021 4:20:08 GMT -6
Saw the movie. It's JUST Part 1 of the novel. And not even all of that. It ends before Jamis' funeral. It's good looking. The Atreidies are in black, but the banners are green and red... A minor change in the end of Liet. Yeah, Liet's a woman... but she has the needed body language and gravitas. Far more text faithful than de Laurentis, far more visually and scenically accurate than SyFyChannel. Doesn't feel rushed, doesn't feel padded. Don't you feel like you still need to have read the books? I think it would be hard to know what is going on at times if you didn't have a little background. |
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aramis
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Post by aramis on Oct 22, 2021 15:56:35 GMT -6
Saw the movie. It's JUST Part 1 of the novel. And not even all of that. It ends before Jamis' funeral. It's good looking. The Atreidies are in black, but the banners are green and red... A minor change in the end of Liet. Yeah, Liet's a woman... but she has the needed body language and gravitas. Far more text faithful than de Laurentis, far more visually and scenically accurate than SyFyChannel. Doesn't feel rushed, doesn't feel padded. Don't you feel like you still need to have read the books? I think it would be hard to know what is going on at times if you didn't have a little background. Knowing the books merely shows me what it left out. My youngest had no experience with Dune, and loved it. As did one of her friends. It doesn't require a background in the book to make sense. (Neither did the 1984 de Laurentis production.) |
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Post by Desparil on Oct 22, 2021 21:30:15 GMT -6
I didn't see it as a vilification of Christianity - quite the opposite. I saw it as shying away from the negative connotations that jihad carries, because in the context of Dune jihad is shown in a positive light - both the ancient Butlerian Jihad to save mankind from destruction by artificial intelligence, and also Paul Muad'Dib's jihad against House Harkonnen (and later against House Corrino when the emperor chose to support the Harkonnens) which is presented as righteous and justified given their atrocities against both House Atreides and the Fremen populace. Crusade is more palatable to the moviegoing public as a word for what the protagonist is doing; jihad is for bad guys. That isn't why they changed jihad to crusade. Do you know someone involved in the production who has told you the reason? If not, then your conjecture has no more authority than mine, and you have offered nothing of substance to support it whereas I have actually explained my reasoning. I'm inviting you - please explain your belief that using the term "crusade" to refer to a righteous and justified war against the evil Harkonnens is anti-Christian. |
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Post by tdenmark on Oct 23, 2021 1:43:13 GMT -6
Do you know someone involved in the production who has told you the reason? If not, then your conjecture has no more authority than mine, and you have offered nothing of substance to support it whereas I have actually explained my reasoning. I'm inviting you - please explain your belief that using the term "crusade" to refer to a righteous and justified war against the evil Harkonnens is anti-Christian. Yes. I've worked in and around the film industry since the late 90's when I did work for LucasFilm. I keep in touch with many of my colleagues, including artists who worked on the Dune film. The decision to change jihad to crusade was political. Frank Herbert does equate jihad to crusade, on I think a couple occasions but he did that in order to explain to an audience who may not have been familiar with jihad. So his reason for doing that was very different. |
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Post by Desparil on Oct 23, 2021 2:26:30 GMT -6
Do you know someone involved in the production who has told you the reason? If not, then your conjecture has no more authority than mine, and you have offered nothing of substance to support it whereas I have actually explained my reasoning. I'm inviting you - please explain your belief that using the term "crusade" to refer to a righteous and justified war against the evil Harkonnens is anti-Christian. Yes. I've worked in and around the film industry since the late 90's when I did work for LucasFilm. I keep in touch with many of my colleagues, including artists who worked on the Dune film. The decision to change jihad to crusade was political. Frank Herbert does equate jihad to crusade, on I think a couple occasions but he did that in order to explain to an audience who may not have been familiar with jihad. So his reason for doing that was very different. I assumed Frank Herbert equated the two; I even mentioned that at the time he was writing, jihad was a rarely-used word that had little of its modern connotation. My comment was not directed at his intent. In any case, unless you have something more than "the decision was political" that really doesn't rule out my supposition - "they changed it because jihad has too much negative baggage" is nothing if not a political decision. Quite frankly, even if industry hearsay from the techs and artists was that someone up high is anti-Christian, this person is apparently doing such a piss-poor job of vilifying Christianity that they're actually accomplishing the opposite by calling Paul's war against the monstrously evil Harkonnens and the corrupt, decadent Corrinos a crusade. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2021 18:11:14 GMT -6
What do you not like about this? Granted the sandworm is much smaller than I pictured when reading it, but aside from that it look OK to me. That has nothing to do with the "official" movie coming out. Its some sort of ripoff parody. I wonder if they won't be sued by whoever owns the movie rites to Frank Herbert's stories?  I did not even look at it that close, they got me!  |
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Post by Otto Harkaman on Oct 23, 2021 18:24:35 GMT -6
I did not even look at it that close, they got me! - another bogus Dune - Dune World (2021) Trailer  |
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Post by tdenmark on Oct 24, 2021 22:42:36 GMT -6
Just back from Dune. What an adventure getting there.
I bought Imax tickets, but they conflicted with my daughter's rescheduled soccer game so I cancelled them & got new ones for Sunday.
It has been raining cats and dogs here, on our way to the theater 2 semi-trucks got blown over blocking all but one lane so it took an hour and a half to get to the theater. We only left an hour before the movie started...so ended up being 1/2 hour late.
Fortunately the theater refunded our tix, gave us new ones for the next not-Imax show.
The first half of the movie was excellent. The entire movie was beautifully shot, the actors were fantastic, the pacing a bit on the slow side but enjoyable. Then my bladder started calling.
So the last half I was squirming but still enjoying the movie. I was struck by how little dialogue it really had, a lot of long dreamy shots with music and sound. So the exposition was kept to a minimum.
Afterwords I asked my daughters what they thought, they said it was really good, they liked it, and said the story wasn't that complicated.
My wife on the other hand had a LOT of questions. Things that should have been answered that weren't. What the spice really did, why Paul was special, who and what the Bene Gesserit were, and so on. So I felt like the director didn't connect enough dots for a non-book read audience.
I strongly liked it, but short of loving it.
I will say though, this is how the new Star Wars movies SHOULD have been done. It was a gorgeous film, the acting was excellent, the worlds and tech well visualized, the score was strong and original. I suspect Part 2 - which WILL be filmed - might be much better.
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Post by Finarvyn on Oct 25, 2021 3:39:05 GMT -6
Yeah, I saw it on Saturday with the family and my daughter had questions similar to those of your wife. I think she was the only one in our group who hadn't seen Dune movies before or read the book. My brain skipped over that stuff because I was familiar with the source material, but then when she asked I thought, "I guess they really didn't explain that stuff, did they?"
My daughter was also bummed that Zendaya had so few on-screen minutes. Her comment was that Zendaya was all over the trailers and she expected to see more of the character. I told her that Zendaya would be in part 2 a lot more.
Overall, the family was quite pleased. Other than the fact that the story wasn't really concluded, they liked it.
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Post by thegreyelf on Oct 25, 2021 5:41:02 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2021 7:23:10 GMT -6
Saw the film yesterday. Enjoyable as above but I miss the original and still enjoy watching that one when I can; stage 3 Navigator and help, e.g.
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Post by tdenmark on Oct 25, 2021 8:21:19 GMT -6
I almost stopped reading your review when you said you've never been able to get all the way through the book, but I powered through anyways. Seriously? It is one of the greatest books ever written, sci-fi or otherwise. Get the audiobook for goodness sake!  I agree with your review for the most part, in particular: "You feel every minute of the 2.5 hours. I was, I admit, bored at some points of the film. It could have been much more tightly paced." It really could have been tightened up, though I admit I have no idea what to cut except just a bunch of little bits here and there where scenes went unnecessarily long, you could probably find a half hour worth of time to remove. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Oct 25, 2021 9:59:48 GMT -6
I almost stopped reading your review when you said you've never been able to get all the way through the book, but I powered through anyways. Seriously? It is one of the greatest books ever written, sci-fi or otherwise. Get the audiobook for goodness sake! I agree with your review for the most part, in particular: "You feel every minute of the 2.5 hours. I was, I admit, bored at some points of the film. It could have been much more tightly paced." It really could have been tightened up, though I admit I have no idea what to cut except just a bunch of little bits here and there where scenes went unnecessarily long, you could probably find a half hour worth of time to remove. I can't get through audiobooks, period. I've tried hundreds of times and I utterly tune them out. I've read much of the book, yeah, but I don't agree that it's one of the greatest ever. It's very dry, dense, and reads like a history book. But I am not a big fan of the writing styles in MANY so-called "classic" sci-fi and fantasy works. I get WHY they are popular; they just don't appeal to me, personally. That said, I am pretty intimately familiar with the entirety of the story as I have friends with whom I've talked about it exhaustively. But yeah, I think that's the key. A LOT of scenes just drag on unnecessarily long and when you add them all together it creates an uneven, slow pacing. One or two fewer sweeping shots of the desert or sequences showing the full ignition sequence of the flyers. A few less lines of posturing among characters here and there. Just little tiny cuts that wouldn't have subtracted from the story but could've tightened it up greatly. And had they done that, they could've gotten it, perhaps, to the LOGICAL break point where the book has a 4-year time jump. |
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Post by tdenmark on Oct 25, 2021 11:33:13 GMT -6
I can't get through audiobooks, period. That is unfortunate. One of the wonders of modern technology is how good audiobooks have gotten. I rely on them daily, but then my job as an artist allows me to listen while I work. There was one thing in your review I disagreed with. Villeneuve's Dune is better then 3.5 out of 5. It is at least a 4. That level of artistry from one of the finest living directors deserves a higher rating. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Oct 25, 2021 14:34:07 GMT -6
I can't get through audiobooks, period. That is unfortunate. One of the wonders of modern technology is how good audiobooks have gotten. I rely on them daily, but then my job as an artist allows me to listen while I work. There was one thing in your review I disagreed with. Villeneuve's Dune is better then 3.5 out of 5. It is at least a 4. That level of artistry from one of the finest living directors deserves a higher rating. That's fair. In the end it's all subjective. The fact that I actually got bored at times (and never should have, with a film that gorgeous and engaging) is why I downgraded it. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Oct 25, 2021 15:37:46 GMT -6
I can't do audiobooks either. I tried laying back in bed and listening, but I fell asleep. I tried listening while driving but apparently I can only focus on the book or the road but not both simultaneously. Just doesn't work for me, which is a bummer because there are some that I have heard great things about, such as Zelazny's Amber. Maybe someday.
I wasn't at all bored by the Dune movie, but if I watch it several more times there may be spots where I might get bored. Hard to say. It's not quite up there with the original Star Wars or the original Pirates of the Caribbean (the two movies that I use to compare all others) but it's certainly a lot better than the first (1984) one and I liked that one quite a bit. Better also than the syfy miniseries, which was also decent. Better than I thought it would be, actually, as I found the trailers to be somewhat disjointed and I was nervous about the movie because of that.
Dune is a fantastic book, not so much because of the writing but more because of the scope of the thing. It's one of those books that I dust off and re-read every few years. I find that reading Lord of the Rings is tough, too, because of Tolkien's use of older words. Dune is sort of like that. Not at all light at fluffy, but there is so much in there. I find that the sequels aren't as awesome, and the ones written by KJA and Herbert's son are even less awesome, but that's because the writing of those guys isn't awesome.
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Post by Desparil on Oct 25, 2021 18:46:03 GMT -6
I saw it last night, the two friends I went with and I (and another who saw it with his fiancée earlier in the week) were all extremely happy with it. We had some little nitpicks here or there - mine personally was that we barely get to know Piter de Vries, I don't think his name is even mentioned outside the credits. When the poison gas kills him, the camera lingers on his face, but without having learned about his sadistic experiments his death isn't all that meaningful. He also never uses Mentat abilities on screen, so other than the little black square beneath his lower lip there's no real indication that his death means Baron Harkonnen needs a new Mentat to replace him, which is of course a major upcoming plot point. Also that the Sardaukar seemed a bit reckless the couple of times lasguns were used. All in all, though, any issues we had were like that - ultimately minor, and thoroughly outweighed by all the good.
My one technical complaint was that during some of Paul's visions, the music swelled quite loud and drowned out the voices, and since there were no subtitles I missed some of what they were saying. Not a big deal for those of us who'd read the book, but it could deprive an unfamiliar person of a bit of context. As for the point where the movie ended, I was very satisfied with the cut point. I wouldn't have wanted another 10 to 15 minutes of wrap-up after the climactic duel.
Personally I'd probably give it 4.5 out of 5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2021 20:38:36 GMT -6
How about that Paul didn't comment on the overwhelming presence of spice when the worm paused from attacking Paul and Lady Jessica on the rocks, facing them real still like?
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 26, 2021 10:01:09 GMT -6
My one technical complaint was that during some of Paul's visions, the music swelled quite loud and drowned out the voices, and since there were no subtitles I missed some of what they were saying. I've often said that sound mixers are the most evil men in Hollywood. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Oct 26, 2021 14:52:06 GMT -6
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 26, 2021 17:12:25 GMT -6
My daughter and I saw the movie today. We cannot praise it highly enough. I sat in awed silence during the entire film.
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Post by Mushgnome on Oct 26, 2021 20:46:18 GMT -6
Rainy day in Miskatonic valley. A good day for a movie about a dry desert planet.
I'd give Dune a strong B+. Better fleshed-out supporting characters could have pushed it into A- territory, for my vote. I don't want to spoiler any spoilers, but there were a few secondary characters I wish had gotten more screen time.
I struggled with the sound design. There were times I couldn't quite understand the dialogue, or that the sound effects were overwhelming. But I really enjoyed the long periods of silence. The use of sign language with subtitles was brilliant. More movies should do this kind of thing!
Breaking news, this just in: my Hollywood sources are reporting that Dune 2 has been green-lit for tentative 2023 release!
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Post by howandwhy99 on Oct 26, 2021 22:03:25 GMT -6
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I did not even look at it that close, they got me! 
