How much Investment do you have in today's OSR scene?

[Starbeard]

Oct 19, 2021 16:58:39 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

I suspect the "evolution" of 5e will probably temporarily stimulate and swell it again, since such spaces and movements do have a reactionary element to them at all times. I think it'll continue to be a thing to some degree for as long as people play tabletop games, because people will always explore the margins of their hobbies or areas of interests to find what lies beyond the mainstream.

It also helps that tabletop games, like video games and science fiction, is the sort of leisure that encourages an archival approach and so will always bring with it a subset of hobbyists who are interested in history and collecting and such. No matter how many online Star Trek games they make, there will always be that 2% of players who insist on using only TOS everything just because.

[Desparil]

Oct 19, 2021 16:58:39 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

Apropos of nothing at all, but there was a thread at the RPG subreddit a month ago where almost everyone was talking about the OSR in the past tense, as if it's completely over and done with forever. I guess since Google + went away? I don't really know what the thought process or rationale is there. I would argue it's changed and probably diminished quite a bit over the past few years, or rather it's going through a waning phase currently, but it's pretty obvious it's not completely burned out yet. I live in a rural, out of the way area in Tennessee and the local game shop hosts Dungeon Crawl Classics games more than once monthly. That's one small anecdote but I think it indicates that there's still some kind of old school renaissance going on. I suspect the "evolution" of 5e will probably temporarily stimulate and swell it again, since such spaces and movements do have a reactionary element to them at all times. I think it'll continue to be a thing to some degree for as long as people play tabletop games, because people will always explore the margins of their hobbies or areas of interests to find what lies beyond the mainstream.

I don't know if the OSR is done or not, personally I don't know enough to weigh in, but I would say that the OSR and old-school play - including playing old-school style products spawned by the OSR - are two separate things. So I wouldn't say that a game store hosting DCC games is proof that the OSR is still going on, any more than an artist today painting in a 15th century style would be proof that the Italian Renaissance is still going on. The 19th century resurgence in popularity of Renaissance architectural styles was called the Neo-Renaissance specifically to distinguish it as a revival rather than a continuation of the original or a new and different sort of Renaissance, and even aside from all that, it, too, ended after a time. Cutoff points are always a tricky thing; certainly the artistic and cultural innovation that marked the Italian Renaissance didn't just stop overnight, but at some point you have to look at a cultural movement's level of vitality and admit that it ain't what it used to be a decade ago.

[waysoftheearth]

Oct 19, 2021 17:43:35 GMT -6 Desparil said:

I would say that the OSR and old-school play - including playing old-school style products spawned by the OSR - are two separate things.

I concur doctor.

[Starbeard]

Oct 19, 2021 17:43:35 GMT -6 Desparil said:

I don't know if the OSR is done or not, personally I don't know enough to weigh in, but I would say that the OSR and old-school play - including playing old-school style products spawned by the OSR - are two separate things. So I wouldn't say that a game store hosting DCC games is proof that the OSR is still going on, any more than an artist today painting in a 15th century style would be proof that the Italian Renaissance is still going on. The 19th century resurgence in popularity of Renaissance architectural styles was called the Neo-Renaissance specifically to distinguish it as a revival rather than a continuation of the original or a new and different sort of Renaissance, and even aside from all that, it, too, ended after a time. Cutoff points are always a tricky thing; certainly the artistic and cultural innovation that marked the Italian Renaissance didn't just stop overnight, but at some point you have to look at a cultural movement's level of vitality and admit that it ain't what it used to be a decade ago.

Desparil, I agree with that. The only thing I would contend — and this doesn't diminish your point, I think it's just a worthwhile contrast to discuss in its own right — is that art and architecture enjoys a permanence even after the style fades for new creations. So Renaissance buildings and artwork were still very much a part of communal life long before the neo-revivals, and are still today. Nobody writes like Cervantes anymore, but his writing is still here and appreciated by many. Hobbies by contrast are ephemera: regardless of whether or not their material remains carry on, if no one plays AD&D then it no longer exists. Its legacy and interaction with the community is solely as an historical abstraction, like the cotton gin or belief in the celestial harmony of the spheres.

[Deleted]

Oct 19, 2021 19:56:29 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

Oct 19, 2021 17:43:35 GMT -6 Desparil said:

 Its legacy and interaction with the community is solely as an historical abstraction, like the cotton gin or belief in the celestial harmony of the spheres.

Lovely!

[captainjapan]

a podcast from around a year ago that I landed on while searching for Ben Milton's Principia Apocrypha:




Fair. 

[waysoftheearth]

Interesting to hear some views from the real world. A friendly dialogue accompanied by the clinking of ice cubes in drinks. A few comments that resonate with me (along with some that don't). Pretty sure their OSR is way beyond the concerns of something so microscopic as OD&D, but anyways my favourite endorsement: "You'll not be taken to D&D court for playing the game wrong". Which kinda implies, somehow, that this might be happening elsewhere in D&D-land? A fun listen for noobs like myself.

[tkdco2]

Is there a "wrong way" to play D&D? I know all about the mindset, but I'm opposed to it. I much prefer the "make the game yours" approach. Your way may not be the same as my way, but that's okay! Sad to see how many folks reject that kind of thinking.

[Finarvyn]

Nov 13, 2021 14:30:15 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

Is there a "wrong way" to play D&D? I know all about the mindset, but I'm opposed to it. I much prefer the "make the game yours" approach. Your way may not be the same as my way, but that's okay! Sad to see how many folks reject that kind of thinking.

I get that, but at the same time I know my own home group has internal conflicts on this same issue. I like old school rules, my kids like new school rules. Old school is more GM friendly, new school is more player friendly. Easy to say "my way or the highway" if you don't mind breaking up the game group.

That's a microcosm of the gaming world at large. There isn't a "wrong" way to play, as evidenced by the fact that all of the editions of D&D sold a lot of copies, but more than one "right" way may be a problem, too. On a message board I might state a preference, but at the table it's all about compromise and sometimes it's hard to blend two differing styles of play. (My solution is to "play 5E" and then hand-wave a lot of the rules away during play.)

[jeffb]

Absolutely the group as a whole has to be taken into account. I've often run games that were not my thing because the majority/all of the players wanted to play that game. 5E (in recent years) and 3.0/3.5 (bitd) for example.

And sometimes I've dropped a game I loved, that the players felt were fun for 1/2 shots but not fun to play as a main squeeze (Runequest, CoC, and T&T)

[waysoftheearth]

I think there's a genuine and acknowledged dichotomy between the earliest model (each game should somehow be unique, make it our own, etc) and the shortly-and-forever-after model (there is a more-or-less complete rule book and everyone should, more-or-less, follow the same basic game structure). I guess, at the crux of it, "OSR" (if I can use this label in the loosest sense) places more emphasis on the earlier, DIY-style sensibility, whereas nu-school places more emphasis on games X, Y, and Z sharing more assumptions (particularly re: combat and skills, which the earliest editions are looser on than later editions).

The odd thing about the old-school vs nu-school argument, as presented in the above discussion, is that ultimately they result in very similar games. So it's not a discussion about what the game is, but how it is delivered, experienced, achieved.

When I think back to my high school games, I don't remember the rules in detail. I don't even remember clearly which rules edition we were playing when (I've caught myself out a few times misremembering these details). What I do remember is the stuff we collectively achieved in the game world. In other words, I remember the what, not the how.

[tombowings]

Nov 13, 2021 14:30:15 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

Is there a "wrong way" to play D&D? I know all about the mindset, but I'm opposed to it. I much prefer the "make the game yours" approach. Your way may not be the same as my way, but that's okay! Sad to see how many folks reject that kind of thinking.

Indeed. At the same time, knowing the split exists makes it easier for me to find players (and friends). Anyone who expects me to conform his/her way of thinking can isn't worth my time. Then again, I also love disagreement and arguing. My mode of gaming-existence certainly isn't low conflict. It's always a wondered day when, after a long discussion, someone can change my mind about something.

[tdenmark]

Nov 13, 2021 14:30:15 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

Is there a "wrong way" to play D&D? I know all about the mindset, but I'm opposed to it. I much prefer the "make the game yours" approach. Your way may not be the same as my way, but that's okay! Sad to see how many folks reject that kind of thinking.

Yes, there is only one true way to play D&D. Unfortunately no one can figure out exactly what that is, and we spend endless hours of speculation and debate trying to figure it out.

That's what makes it fun.

[tombowings]

Nov 14, 2021 1:12:40 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Yes, there is only one true way to play D&D. Unfortunately no one can figure out exactly what that is, and we spend endless hours of speculation and debate trying to figure it out.

That's what makes it fun.

D&D + New Platonism = ? ? ?

[derv]

Oh come on guys, rule arguments aka rules lawyering is as old as time. It's as old school as it can get.

My son and I are the worst offenders when we play together no matter what the game is. Typically I'm more about play, but my son has a competitive nature that brings out the rules bickering side of me. We accuse and holler. References of cheating, ignorance, and manipulation are thrown. Then we work it out and move on with the game. It is an expected spectacle for my wife and girls to behold. It's not for the faint of heart. Ha-ha-ha!

[Starbeard]

Instances where we have to pause the game and consult a rulebook to settle a bet have made up both the best and worst of my gaming experiences. It really all depends on your relationship and camaraderie with the other players, and exactly where you all stand philosophically on the rules.

The bad experiences have pretty much always been because the consultation itself wasn't just to settle a question or dispute, it was the symptom of two people already realizing that their goals in playing the game (and playing with each other) were incompatible and antagonistic: that sort of antagonism very often gets fought out in the rules arguments because it's the easiest battlefield to have it on.

The good experiences are much, much more varied, but generally they come about because, in one way or another, the players had already all achieved an understanding that we would continue to have fun no matter what happens, and adopted a "we're in this game together" mindset.

[tedopon]

Yeah with Rule Lawyering, 99% of the time in an rpg it drives me up a wall and I want it over as soon as possible so we can get back to the fun. In a board or war game, it's part of the fun of the game to Rule Lawyer. I can't stand it in an rpg session, but every intense boardgame or wargame session needs at least one heated debate or outright salacious argument for it to feel like magic.
EDIT: This is how I tell the difference between Gamers and Everyone Else regarding games. Playing a boardgame or wargame with regular folks there is always a moment where at least one person thinks there is some real world stakes to the argument. Playing the same game with gamers and having the exact same argument, in nearly every case just ends with one side getting the victory in the argument and then the regular conversation starts back in with no fallout.
My wife hates playing boardgames with me because of this. Adds a wrinkle of weirdness on holidays when me and my sister get together and will enforce rules with an Iron Fist and argue violently about disagreements regarding rules interpretations. My wife will say something like "calm down guys, this is supposed to be fun," and my mom will say "this is how they have had fun since they were able to talk." 

[DungeonDevil]

Nov 13, 2021 14:30:15 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

Is there a "wrong way" to play D&D?

All abooooaaarrddd! CHOOOO-CHOOOO!

[ty]

I voted "no real investment"--I don't purchase any products, do not listen to any podcasts or follow other sorts of social media, nor do I game really at all at the moment--the next gaming adventure will be working with some middle school age kids on 5e since that is what they seem familiar with; I plan to bring their game to them, use my older editions loosely as inspiration--still have my b/x, BECMI/RC, AD&D 1e hardcopies, lost my very beat up LBBs long ago (but have PDF back-ups). In terms of being part of the "scene" I suppose I am all about rulings vs rules, but perhaps that is not old school as much as it is style. I do know this--I'm jazzed to have some fun again with the game, and maybe, just maybe I can run some side games from LBB-ish rules, if anything it will indulge some nostalgia. I'm pretty remote these days, so I gotta take what I can get as far as D&D goes.

[stonetoflesh]

"Just a bit" for me. I'm a Patreon subscriber for Necrotic Gnome's Dolmenwood books, lurk in a few Discord servers (Necrotic Gnome, FKR, & NSR), and occasionally poke my head into one forum or another.

[Deleted]

Been running a young co-worker through a solo Old School Essentials adventure. He wanted to try D&D, and I explained to him that there's many different levels of complexity and styles of D&D to choose from, but that I personally grew up with Basic D&D and feel like it's best for beginners, and he agreed after I explained the differences, and he's playing as an Elf who is searching for a life partner, which is an interesting character motivation. I'm going a little easy on him since he's solo and doing a more RP oriented thing, but he's had some close scrapes with guard dogs and an ogre, and now he's trapped in a snow globe by a lecherous old witch, so that should be interesting. I would consider this an intimate engagement with the modern OSR for me, presently, even if I haven't called it that and it's just a little one on one game of "D&D".

Now, my upcoming games of the current edition of Runequest probably don't count as OSR, because many people are of the opinion that Runequest has changed a lot, but I have to say, I am in love with this Starter Set and I think this game shares many of the aesthetics and trappings of what we call Old School around here. If nothing else, I'll be engaging in and promoting a form of fantasy gaming that runs parallel to current D&D, and I am satisfied with that. It doesn't need to be called OSR or anything in particular. What's important is people realize 5e ain't the be all, end all of tabletop fantasy RP.

[tkdco2]

I heard that Old School Essentials is easy to teach, especially kids. Basic Fantasy RPG is my go-to game these days, but both are pretty close to B/X.

Even before 5e came around I was trying to show people that there's more to the RPG scene than just D&D. Since I'm generally stuck in the DM role, I just run whatever game I feel like running. I have run MERP and Rolemaster in recent years, but I tend to prefer rules-light games. So I've done Classic Traveller and GURPS Lite as well as Stormbringer, d6 Fantasy, and Castle Falkenstein.

[tdenmark]

Nov 21, 2021 17:19:25 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

I heard that Old School Essentials is easy to teach, especially kids. Basic Fantasy RPG is my go-to game these days, but both are pretty close to B/X.

Even before 5e came around I was trying to show people that there's more to the RPG scene than just D&D. Since I'm generally stuck in the DM role, I just run whatever game I feel like running. I have run MERP and Rolemaster in recent years, but I tend to prefer rules-light games. So I've done Classic Traveller and GURPS Lite as well as Stormbringer, d6 Fantasy, and Castle Falkenstein.

One of the impressive things about OSE is its singular focus on making the game playable. The GM screen is one of the best organizations of quick reference D&D rules I've ever seen. The books are layed out in such a way as to be instantly useful at the game table in the heat of the game. Nothing important is buried in a paragraph, what you need is clear and legible. Really, it is what the 1983 Frank Mentzer edition should have been.

It is very vanilla Basic D&D.

I just don't like the size. I like digest size for smaller books, but thicker books should be made Letter size (or A4 I guess since it is a UK production).

[Deleted]

I have some investment in today's OSR scene, whereas before the rise and fall of G+ I was 'all about the OSR', did the forums, had a blog etc. I have no desire to ferret out any discussion that is shut away on discord, facebook and mewe so I'm not 'in' with the various scenes. I've been turned off by the minimalism I once embraced and have no need or appreciation of cutting-edge layout.

..but I still dabble and check out DTRPG

[Deleted]

Jan 1, 2022 1:16:24 GMT -6 @geordieracer said:

I have some investment in today's OSR scene, whereas before the rise and fall of G+ I was 'all about the OSR', did the forums, had a blog etc. I have no desire to ferret out any discussion that is shut away on discord, facebook and mewe so I'm not 'in' with the various scenes. I've been turned off by the minimalism I once embraced and have no need or appreciation of cutting-edge layout.

..but I still dabble and check out DTRPG

Where do you currently sit as far as preferred rules? Something more akin to OD&D or AD&D and less B/X derived? I know like 98% of the OSR currently seems to be hacks or clones of B/X. At least from what I can tell on the subreddit and discords. 

[Deleted]

I prefer OD&D for encouraging archetypes rather than focussing on ability scores/modifiers, having levels grouped as tiers, and d6 damage. All the clones I've played over the last decade are around the power level of OD&D.

[scottenkainen]

Jan 1, 2022 9:30:33 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

..but I still dabble and check out DTRPG

Where do you currently sit as far as preferred rules? Something more akin to OD&D or AD&D and less B/X derived? I know like 98% of the OSR currently seems to be hacks or clones of B/X. At least from what I can tell on the subreddit and discords. [/quote]

Obnoxiously vocal Old School Essential fans may make it seem that way, but I don't think that would bear out to be true if we did an inventory.

Actually, maybe we should! Which OSR systems put out fresh material in 2021? Does anyone know, or can point to a research to find out?

[Deleted]

Jan 1, 2022 10:50:57 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

Jan 1, 2022 9:30:33 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

..but I still dabble and check out DTRPG

Where do you currently sit as far as preferred rules? Something more akin to OD&D or AD&D and less B/X derived? I know like 98% of the OSR currently seems to be hacks or clones of B/X. At least from what I can tell on the subreddit and discords. 

Obnoxiously vocal Old School Essential fans may make it seem that way, but I don't think that would bear out to be true if we did an inventory.

Actually, maybe we should! Which OSR systems put out fresh material in 2021? Does anyone know, or can point to a research to find out?
[/quote]

I honestly don't follow much of it. I know there was a new edition of Astonishing Sorcerers and a Swords & Wizardry box set. To be honest, I still use the first handful of OSR systems that came out over a decade ago. I don't see newer stuff as a marked improvement. Basic Fantasy and Swords & Wizardry still serve my needs well enough.

[Starbeard]

Same. I wouldn't be opposed to picking up a hard copy of OSE because I like the return to principles of table practicality over innovation that were set by the earliest clones. If I play B/X then I'm playing B/X, any house rules are there because I want them there; so a handy reference is best for me and my players, not a reinterpretation or a 'hack'.

Other than that, so far all of the clones I still reference are the ones that have already been around for quite some time, at least 10 years, and typically it's the foundational clone for its parent system. Like, I still pull out some of my Labyrinth Lord stuff even though I doubt anyone's actually played that game since 2015.

Also, I think records of games played is a better gauge for where the OSR sits, rather than products published. These days anyone can publish anything and DTRPG algorithms will spotlight whatever, but if there are 50 calls for B/X based games on the various VTTs and 5 for AD&D or OD&D based games, then that says a lot.

[The Wanderer]

There is the Orr report for Roll20. Scroll down and click the PDF link for details.  Looks like AD&D was .19%. OD&D was .05%. Then they have some clones listed like Basic Fantasy RPG and Old School Essentials at .06% and Labyrinth Lord at .01%.

I'm wondering if they combine OD&D and B/X as Original D&D (any edition)?


blog.roll20.net/posts/the-orr-report-q3-2021/