What is a "dungeon", anyway?

[captainjapan]

I was watching a lecture, recently, online. The topic was the ruin of the palace of king Minos of Crete, otherwise known as "the labyrinth" of Greek mythology. The floorplan is elaborate; and the site was accessible to the public for hundreds of years after Knossis was sacked by the Mycenaeans. The palace has many narrow corridors connecting small rooms, kind of like a large office complex. The walls were decorated with frescos. Two prominent themes of which were the bull and the double-bladed axe. The word, labyrinth, may derive from an older word meaning either narrow passage or double-bladed axe, depending on who you talk to. Perhaps, some ancient greek teenagers went urban spelunking in the steam tunnels of their day, the palace ruin. They got lost in the passages, made up stories about the weird paintings, and now, 2000 years later, we have the story of the minotaur. This all got me to thinking...

Where, exactly does the D&D dungeon come from? It is fairly odd compared to other, real-world, underground topographies. I know the alliterative origin of the name of the commercial product, Dungeons & Dragons. I know that the first such maze was explored under Blackmoor castle; so calling the place a "dungeon" makes practical sense. I know how hot everyone was on Lord of the Rings with it's great undermountain cities. This is as good an origin as I can figure. Yet, I still wonder at the confluence of features particular to D&D such as the multiple levels down or the hidden doors (although, presumably, the whole dungeon is a secret location), or to the incredible diversity of creatures living in rooms right next door to one another waiting their turns to be encountered by a party of surface dwellers. Or maybe I'm overthinking this.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not well read. I wonder, can anyone cite a literary influence for the D&D dungeon that resembles an aspect of actual gameplay? Bonus points if you know where your chosen author got the original idea of a "dungeon" for their works. 

[DungeonDevil]

Where, exactly does the D&D dungeon come from?

Khazad-Dum?

[captainjapan]

Feb 16, 2021 9:05:54 GMT -6 DungeonDevil said:

Where, exactly does the D&D dungeon come from?

Khazad-Dum?

see Lydney Park, Gloucestershire and the temple of Noden.

[rredmond]

Quarmall is a good one.

I think the dungeon is just a great fantasy game setting. Sorta like the deep sea, or outer space. I think it allows for exploring, and for encountering things that the PCs can't on the surface. Secondarily (or actually primarily) it also adds in the disadvantages of resource management and the monsters/bad guys being in their comfortable, and well-known surroundings. Meeting a bunch of kobolds on the surface, in the midday sun, a party would have a field day. Meeting a bunch of kobolds in their labyrintine mess of passages, with murder holes throughout (see Yrchyn the Tyrant for inspiration ) is a whole other story! Especially if you are running low on healing, food, torches, etc.

[dicebro]

Howard’s Conan Stories and 50s horror B-movies according to Dave Arneson.

[Finarvyn]

Burroughs' Barsoom stories have a number of cases where John Carter (or other heroes) wander in underground tunnels for extended periods of time, too.

[mgtremaine]

Feb 16, 2021 10:17:21 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

Feb 16, 2021 9:05:54 GMT -6 DungeonDevil said:

Khazad-Dum?

see Lydney Park, Gloucestershire and the temple of Noden.

Toliken is filled with examples of these underworld complexes. In the Hobbit Gandalf refers to entering the Dungeons of Dol Guldur, and finding Thráin there. So right there we have Dungeons, explorations, treasure maps and escape.

-Mike

[Deleted]

Right there indeed. And, it's what Tolkien doesn't say that's best of all. Enter MERP!

[Deleted]

I feel like Conan must have been a big influence. He got thrown into dungeons a lot and had to grope through monster infested tunnels. The Dungeon as we know it doesn't originate in any one such source, though. It's the result of a bunch of media and wargaming ideas gelling together to make something new.

[Zenopus]

[Source] mgtremaine said:

Tolkien is filled with examples of these underworld complexes. In the Hobbit Gandalf refers to entering the Dungeons of Dol Guldur, and finding Thráin there. So right there we have Dungeons, explorations, treasure maps and escape.

-Mike

Yes, in addition to Moria and Dol Guldur, there are also the vast goblin tunnels under the Misty Mountains where Bilbo finds the ring, the Dwarven halls of the Lonely Mountain, and Shelob's lair. When you've got a world with tunneling folk like goblins and dwarves, there are going to be lots of underground complexes.

[dicebro]

Feb 16, 2021 11:11:20 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Howard’s Conan Stories and 50s horror B-movies according to Dave Arneson.

According to primary sources, Dave Arneson introduced Gary Gygax to to dungeon crawl concept before they co-authored Dungeons & Dragons.  There is speculation that Dave Arneson was influenced, in part, by a movie called “The Strangler of Blackmoor Castle.”  Here is part of a plot review published on the IMDb: “The story is relatively straightforward: a masked killer prowls the corridors of Blackmoor Castle, searching for a stash of hidden diamonds and ready to strangle anyone who gets in his way. Veteran director Harald Reinl uses the opportunity to deliver a film that's loaded with atmosphere, murder and action. The killer, who has a penchant for beheading his victims, is truly a sinister creation and the scenes of him prowling through dimly-lit corridors are hugely atmosphere.”

[Otto Harkaman]

[Deleted]

So what I'm taking from this is that when a Swashbuckler appears in the dungeon tables, it's gonna be this guy instead.

[Porphyre]

Appendix N cites Margaret St. Clair: The Shadow People (1969); and Sign of the Labrys (1963), in which the hero explores subterranean complexes.

Also HP Lovecraft. Just on the top of my head : The Nameless City, Rats in the Walls, The Case of Charles Dexter Ward.

[Porphyre]

Feb 16, 2021 11:11:20 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Howard’s Conan Stories and 50s horror B-movies according to Dave Arneson.

Red Nails. 


www.gutenberg.org/files/32759/32759-h/32759-h.htm

[Deleted]

Mar 5, 2021 17:36:19 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Feb 16, 2021 11:11:20 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Howard’s Conan Stories and 50s horror B-movies according to Dave Arneson.

Red Nails. 


www.gutenberg.org/files/32759/32759-h/32759-h.htm

That title would make a fantastic title for a sword & sorcery roleplay campaign, wouldn't it? 

[Otto Harkaman]

Conan in the dungeon of the wizard Tsotha in the story "THE SCARLET CITADEL"

[yesmar]

Let’s not forget Clark Ashton Smith. Although many of his stories feature dungeon-like environments, there are two which spring immediately to mind:

The Tale of Satampra Zeiros — Ruined cities and crumbling fanes, anyone?

The Weaver in the Vault — More ruined cities… and unspeakable horror.

[howandwhy99]

Honestly I don't think it has anything to do with literary inspiration at all. This is a wargame, and a dungeon beneath a castle was the next logical step to expanding the wargaming concept to even more exotic environments than had already been tried. The world itself becomes the foe; dangerous and confusing.

In D&D there are few broadly-defined game elements which comprise its design. A Monster is any challenge-appropriate creature whether in combat or otherwise. Treasure is any game valuable item or resource. And Dungeon means any game challenging environment a la geometric gameboard of game symbols. Be it an outdoor map, a town map, or even aquatic: it is all dungeon.

The Arnesonian / Gygaxian dungeon In particular is like all the strange and crazy challenges the game can hold were put into one area of reified symbolic manifestations. It instantly shows to the players they must game the very environment to survive and thrive. That the whole multiverse is itself a veritable maze ordered by unknown rules. And a mad creators playground is perhaps such a world's best proving ground.

[captainjapan]

howandwhy99 ,

I hope you don't mind, I'm going to push back on some of what you've posted.

...I don't think it has anything to do with literary inspiration at all. This is a wargame, and a dungeon beneath a castle was the next logical step to expanding the wargaming concept to even more exotic environments than had already been tried...

but, besides that is this semi-famous response by Dave Arneson in a 1981 Pegasus Magazine interview about eating popcorn and reading Conan:




With this thread, I was hoping to get more insight into the genesis of some of the stereotypical "dungeon" features such as the doors that must be forced (and held ajar), the corridors connecting rooms(I would think having all rooms directly adjacent each other would be more realistic), the rooms each containing a distinct type of monster(a veritable menagerie), and the nominal setting itself(why should the evil arch mage make his last stand under the castle instead of fleeing into the wilderness). That sort of thing.

[howandwhy99]

Mar 6, 2021 10:14:05 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

With this thread, I was hoping to get more insight into the genesis of some of the stereotypical "dungeon" features such as the doors that must be forced (and held ajar), the corridors connecting rooms(I would think having all rooms directly adjacent each other would be more realistic), the rooms each containing a distinct type of monster(a veritable menagerie), and the nominal setting itself(why should the evil arch mage make his last stand under the castle instead of fleeing into the wilderness). That sort of thing.

I really do think this is seeing the game from a completely different perspective than from which it was conceived and played. Look at RoboRally. No one asks why an industrial engineer would have built such a place. That it is unrealistic. And what narrative purpose could those teleporter tropes serve?
--EDIT: Not trying to be snarky. I'm only saying that from first to last D&D is all about mechanical design.--

In '81 no one thought of playing D&D as the act of telling a story. It was a game. Even if stories might inspire its design gaming was the actual end.

[captainjapan]

In '81 no one thought of playing D&D as the act of telling a story. It was a game. Even if stories might inspire its design gaming was the actual end.

howandwhy99,

If the features of a dungeon served as nothing more than mechanical obstacles to challenge the players, then I could be satisfied. However, I do believe that "the dungeon" is probably a derivative work. In the case that literary and/or pop culture sources exist as the inspiration of the original D&D game, I would like to know them. And, if the dungeon is mostly the product of the imaginations of it's first referees then we should still be able to tease out the kernels of inspiration from the fiction of the day. 

I would be more inclined to agree with you about the ultimate purpose of all these fantastic trappings (the end, as you say), except that recreational wargaming has such a colorful history of editorializing it's conflicts. From Robert Louis Stevenson to Tony Bath to Gygax, himself; there appears such a strong inclination to turn battle reports into creative writing exercises. 

But, maybe I am putting the cart before the horse here. If I am, I'd like to know what to make of this recollection from Rob Kuntz, recalling Gary's first rpg experience, where he describes the concept as a way to generate "stories"?! I doubt anyone ever sat down to play either chess or Stalingrad or Warhammer with the expectation of inspiring prose.

[Porphyre]

I forgot about The Lords of Quarmall by Fritz Leiber & Harry Fisher.

[howandwhy99]

I still hold my answer as legitimate. When I read the rules, even the three hardcover book AD&D rules, I find absolutely nothing referring to narrative play. It's a strategy game.

If you want to find some narrative inspiration, fine. I don't want to derail or drag discussion about Rob into this. Maybe he believes D&D isn't about attempting to attain objectives and score points to go up in level, but rather to create a more interesting story. I still doubt that was how any of the millions of original players played the game.

[rredmond]

Mar 6, 2021 14:57:17 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

I forgot about The Lords of Quarmall by Fritz Leiber & Harry Fisher.

One of my favorites!

[yesmar]

The beautiful thing about this game of ours is that it is bigger than any of us and bigger than any limitations we might attempt to place on it. We were definitely creating stories in 1981. They weren’t preordained, but rather emergent from play, from minds coming together. That’s what D&D is for me: a shared creation where anything is possible.

[captainjapan]

howandwhy99,

I'm sure we're just arguing past each other. I agree with you whole-heartedly that narrativist, railroad-y, boxed-text story-games didn't occur to the members of the Castles and Crusades Society. That came later. 

I'm only looking for simple answers in the same vein as 'Comicbook heroes have superpowers because the gods of ancient myth have superpowers. They dress in tights because carnival performers dressed in tights when they performed amazing feats.' Or 'The Starship Enterprise treks through the final frontier like cowboys travelled around the American frontier in sixties television westerns because the Star Trek format is intentionally modelled on those same westerns which Roddenberry also wrote.' Or, 'Dungeons and Dragons has maps, and dungeons, and dragons, and secret doors because all those things are in The Hobbit; and those are the things that Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson would have to include in their wargame to keep their local players, who were becoming Tolkien super-fans, happy.' 

Hmm, I may have just answered my own question, there

At any rate, I find your position to be a perfectly valid one, howandwhy99. I will take it under advisement.

[jeffb]

"John Carter groping through black pits.............."

At the Mountains of Madness....

The Howling Tower...

[Deleted]

I think there is also a lot of Haunted House influence as well. Not just the Disney haunted house ride but all of the other lesser ones as well. Back in the '60s there was an annual carnival that had a hunted house ride with plenty of spooky scenes and jump scares.

And the haunted house rides derived from Gothic Fiction. In the Castle of Otranto there was a catacomb underneath the castle, secret doors, concealed doors, etc.

I do think that the dungeon as defined by 0D&D is original but there are clearly a number of antecedants (Gothic literature, Haunted House rides, Mines of Moria, etc.).

[geoffrey]

Mar 5, 2021 17:50:10 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

Mar 5, 2021 17:36:19 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Red Nails. 


www.gutenberg.org/files/32759/32759-h/32759-h.htm

That title would make a fantastic title for a sword & sorcery roleplay campaign, wouldn't it? 

That is my second favorite Conan story ("Beyond the Black River" beating it by a nose). That said, I'm afraid that a lot of people when hearing the title "Red Nails" think of something like this: