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Post by tdenmark on Dec 2, 2020 1:09:09 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 3:08:08 GMT -6
Nah, seems like nonsense. That "opinion piece" that postulates the sale to be likely, that author should probably not be writing about anything related to economics.
Check Yahoo Finance and other sources for better and more thorough analysis of Hasbro's situation:
Basically, took a drop like all big companies this year, but the core brands are going strong, and part of Hasbro's recuperating market value lies with the WotC brands.
In principle, this is a stock people are buying, not a company in whatever kind of supposed crisis.
If the idiocies continue, I can see Hasbro outright neutering WotC as a subsidiary, and probably splitting that company into several entities. We might be seeing stuff like that happening already, given that Hasbro is clearly mostly interested in expanding an licensing their IPs over the next few years. Baldur's Gate III, the Dragonlance remake that might still happen, those are mothership enterprises on their own that are bound to make some serious cash. Hasbro is not going to pass on those opportunities because some staffers at WotC are bad at interpersonal management. |
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Post by linebeck on Dec 2, 2020 14:46:22 GMT -6
Nah, seems like nonsense. I agree, in a world where JJ Abrams is making a "Dr. Seuss expanded cinematic universe" (see io9.gizmodo.com/j-j-abrams-will-produce-oh-the-places-you-ll-go-as-p-1845241981) there is so much untapped value in the intellectual property WOTC owns that a sale is very, very unlikely. It's sort of like the situation with Marvel comics and Disney -- the sale of the actual comic books is a losing proposition for Disney, but the intellectual property is tremendously valuable. Same with D&D if someone can figure out how to utilize it. Bigby could be the next Tony Stark for all we know. |
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Post by tdenmark on Dec 2, 2020 17:32:26 GMT -6
in a world where they JJ Abrams is making a "Dr. Seuss expanded cinematic universe" At first I shuddered in revulsion, then when I thought about it a bit, all of Dr. Seuss' work did feel like they took place in the same weird world. It kinda makes sense. When you say Disney bought up Marvel, though the comics division makes no money, kinda proves that some big corp out there would be interested in paying serious money for something like WotC to mine for IP. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2020 2:38:59 GMT -6
Sorry if it seems like I'm giving you crap here, my friend - thing is, In all likelihood, I think we're not seeing a sale, we're seeing a "company restructuring".
But WotC is bad at virtually everything that touches interpersonal management, from letting Erik Mona go and work for the competition, to the current lawsuit. It's not "a series of unfortunate events"; it's "their style of doing things", and it's a style that people generally don't like.
So, what any conventional manager is going to do after witnessing a trend for these things to happen is that they are going to cut the company into pieces. Board games go to the parent, as happened a few years ago. Fiction goes to a third party publishing house - Penguin, as mentioned in the DL lawsuit. Staff is shrunk at every occasion. - That's what's been Hasbro's general policy concerning WotC, since the problems during the developmental phase of 5e: Strip away responsibilities, take off people, limit the field of decisionmaking.
I very, very strongly doubt that WotC is going to see a sale, unless there are specific indicators in that direction that can be backed up by the numbers. WotC brands are still netting 0.5 Bio. in revenue, and probably more through licensing. That's pretty good for nostalgia brands like MtG and D&D. Unless that changes, I'm pretty sure we will see 6e done by WotC - but all additional responsibilites and projects beyond the actual game design will be done by externalized entities. - As I said in the lawsuit thread: What talent do you think WotC can attract with their "scorched earth" policy? The long-term damage of this is incredible; but employees who flunk projects of these rather biblical proportions usually don't get fired - they tend to get a new, better boss.
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Post by rsdean on Dec 3, 2020 4:29:17 GMT -6
I’m curious as to whether anyone thinks that actually selling off D&D would have any effect on “us”. I suppose a hypothetical new owner might decide to remove the back catalog in .pdf from sale (again), or start going after online fan presence. I’m not sure how much efect that would have on recruiting for OD&D...
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Post by Piper on Dec 3, 2020 7:08:33 GMT -6
I’m curious as to whether anyone thinks that actually selling off D&D would have any effect on “us”. I suppose a hypothetical new owner might decide to remove the back catalog in .pdf from sale (again), or start going after online fan presence. I’m not sure how much efect that would have on recruiting for OD&D... I don't see it making a big difference in our present day. I thought it might contribute to the obscurity of older D&D editions down the road, but to be frank I believe that's likely no matter what WizBro does. Pre-1983 editions of D&D will always have a place with those of us who played them BitD but the further in time you get from us? The less popular they are. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Dec 3, 2020 7:18:37 GMT -6
Sorry if it seems like I'm giving you crap here, my friend - thing is, In all likelihood, I think we're not seeing a sale, we're seeing a "company restructuring".
But WotC is bad at virtually everything that touches interpersonal management, from letting Erik Mona go and work for the competition, to the current lawsuit. It's not "a series of unfortunate events"; it's "their style of doing things", and it's a style that people generally don't like.
So, what any conventional manager is going to do after witnessing a trend for these things to happen is that they are going to cut the company into pieces. Board games go to the parent, as happened a few years ago. Fiction goes to a third party publishing house - Penguin, as mentioned in the DL lawsuit. Staff is shrunk at every occasion. - That's what's been Hasbro's general policy concerning WotC, since the problems during the developmental phase of 5e: Strip away responsibilities, take off people, limit the field of decisionmaking.
I very, very strongly doubt that WotC is going to see a sale, unless there are specific indicators in that direction that can be backed up by the numbers. WotC brands are still netting 0.5 Bio. in revenue, and probably more through licensing. That's pretty good for nostalgia brands like MtG and D&D. Unless that changes, I'm pretty sure we will see 6e done by WotC - but all additional responsibilites and projects beyond the actual game design will be done by externalized entities. - As I said in the lawsuit thread: What talent do you think WotC can attract with their "scorched earth" policy? The long-term damage of this is incredible; but employees who flunk projects of these rather biblical proportions usually don't get fired - they tend to get a new, better boss.
Given the legal troubles that WotC has had lately combined with the serious damage to their reputation after being called out on their racist and sexist operations and hiring practices, I actually think it's more than likely that we'll see the company go away. If Hasbro doesn't sell them, they'll tear WotC apart and absorb the IP under the overarching Hasbro umbrella. This will be damaging to D&D, as Hasbro does not know how to handle a tabletop RPG, which can't be treated like a board game or a card game. I expect we'll see a heavily sanitized and stripped down version of D&D which "makes sense" to Hasbro corporate and marketing executives. It will fail in the marketplace and be pulled. Hasbro will sit on the IP for a few years, doing nothing with it save maybe licensing some Funko Pops, dolls, and maybe action figures. Eventually, they'll put it up for sale for an exorbitant price that only someone like Modiphius can afford to pay. Suddenly we'll see a version of D&D that uses their 2d20 house system and no longer looks anything like D&D at all. But Modiphius fans will eat it up, and it'll make enough money for them to justify its continuance. D&D will no longer be the dominant force in the market. Other, smaller companies will benefit from the 5% or so D&D players who are willing to look for new alternatives. But the market will fracture. I wrote a blog about this back in 2011, when 4e was tanking, and it started to actually bear out before 5e came along. The writing has been on the wall for D&D ever since it was bought out by a huge corporation; its success with 5e was a smart move and bought it some time, but its business practices since then have been questionable at best. I'm speaking from a strictly business standpoint here; it's important to remember our bias as gamers, and not to put more value on D&D than it actually holds. The brand at this point is worth more than the game, but the brand is tied to the game, and Hasbro doesn't know how to handle it. It's too different than their other brands, and the economics of the TTRPG market are too different than those of other games. wastedlandsfantasy.blogspot.com/2011/01/d-demise-would-be-good-for-industry.html |
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Post by tdenmark on Dec 3, 2020 7:34:42 GMT -6
Sorry if it seems like I'm giving you crap here, my friend - thing is, In all likelihood, I think we're not seeing a sale, we're seeing a "company restructuring". You are? I didn't notice. I don't really think they are selling, but it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility and any objective observer has to notice the many odd decisions of late that certainly don't bode well for the future of the company. Restructuring or absorption into Hasbro are the most likely. Which is weirdly timed as D&D might be even more popular right now than at its heights in the 80's. |
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Post by tdenmark on Dec 3, 2020 7:36:37 GMT -6
I’m curious as to whether anyone thinks that actually selling off D&D would have any effect on “us”. No. The OGL means D&D belongs to the fans. Forever. We'll just continue picking up the mantle and perpetually making cool new stuff for it and playing the game with our family and friends. Though the nice thing about a wealthy company owning it is they can raise wider awareness of the game so there is a large pool of new players. |
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Post by tdenmark on Dec 3, 2020 7:42:45 GMT -6
Eventually, they'll put it up for sale for an exorbitant price that only someone like Modiphius can afford to pay. Suddenly we'll see a version of D&D that uses their 2d20 house system and no longer looks anything like D&D at all. But Modiphius fans will eat it up, and it'll make enough money for them to justify its continuance. D&D will no longer be the dominant force in the market. Other, smaller companies will benefit from the 5% or so D&D players who are willing to look for new alternatives. But the market will fracture. I wrote a blog about this back in 2011, when 4e was tanking, and it started to actually bear out before 5e came along. The writing has been on the wall for D&D ever since it was bought out by a huge corporation; its success with 5e was a smart move and bought it some time, but its business practices since then have been questionable at best. What a bleak and depressing picture. I got the Modiphius John Carter game, the miniatures were fine, but the 2d20 game was awful. And the art was terrible - just a bunch of badly photo-bashed cg. The wall map of Barsoom was beautiful, but illegible and wildly inaccurate (to be fair, I don't think it is possible to reconcile a map with the text of the ERB novels). |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2020 11:07:53 GMT -6
I'll buy WotC from Hasbro for $100. And then sell it for its market value: $1000Billion gp.
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Post by jeffb on Dec 3, 2020 11:32:16 GMT -6
Eventually, they'll put it up for sale for an exorbitant price that only someone like Modiphius can afford to pay. Suddenly we'll see a version of D&D that uses their 2d20 house system and no longer looks anything like D&D at all. But Modiphius fans will eat it up, and it'll make enough money for them to justify its continuance. D&D will no longer be the dominant force in the market. Other, smaller companies will benefit from the 5% or so D&D players who are willing to look for new alternatives. But the market will fracture. I wrote a blog about this back in 2011, when 4e was tanking, and it started to actually bear out before 5e came along. The writing has been on the wall for D&D ever since it was bought out by a huge corporation; its success with 5e was a smart move and bought it some time, but its business practices since then have been questionable at best. What a bleak and depressing picture. I got the Modiphius John Carter game, the miniatures were fine, but the 2d20 game was awful. And the art was terrible - just a bunch of badly photo-bashed cg. The wall map of Barsoom was beautiful, but illegible and wildly inaccurate (to be fair, I don't think it is possible to reconcile a map with the text of the ERB novels). I absolutely love/adore/enjoy Jay Little's Star Wars system for FFG. It's one of my absolute fave systems to play. Modiphius essentially asked Jay to design their "house system" around that but using "normal dice", and it's just comes off clunky and forced and ups the "things to track" and meta currency from a bare minimum and clever (in Star Wars), to over the top and ridiculous. It's my understanding they have tried to tone the 2D20 system down with Star Trek and John Carter, but after using Conan a few times, I walked away from that for good. As to the OP- I don't see Hasbro getting rid of D&D. The name is worth too much to them as a lifestyle brand these days (which was the intent) The RPG might be reduced to a bare minimum, but hell- They still own the rights to Dragonquest and have been sitting on it (having got it from the WOTC purchase-them having got it from TSR's purchase of SPI). As WOTC marketing has said a million times, anything with the word "Dragon" in it, sells extremely well compared to other titles. I don't really like the guy, but I thank Ryan Dancey every chance I get for giving D&D gamers the OGL/SRD. |
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Post by tombowings on Dec 3, 2020 12:50:04 GMT -6
As to the OP- I don't see Hasbro getting rid of D&D. The name is worth too much to them as a lifestyle brand these days (which was the intent) The RPG might be reduced to a bare minimum, but hell- They still own the rights to Dragonquest and have been sitting on it (having got it from the WOTC purchase-them having got it from TSR's purchase of SPI). As WOTC marketing has said a million times, anything with the word "Dragon" in it, sells extremely well compared to other titles. Which still saddens me. DragonQuest is a gem. |
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Post by linebeck on Dec 3, 2020 14:12:59 GMT -6
I'll buy WotC from Hasbro for $100. And then sell it for its market value: $1000Billion gp. I will buy it for $110, and payment will be all in magic the gathering cards.  |
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Post by DungeonDevil on Dec 3, 2020 14:21:03 GMT -6
What Hasbro does with WotC and D&D doesn't have a single grain of impact upon me, my friends, family, fellow OSR enthusiasts, etc. Can they bungle the name and IP further? Yes, and probably will, but that won't prevent me from playing older ediitons which I have now. I've been watching the sickening abuse of D&D ever since the TSR buyout.
In time, Disney will buy Hasbro, turn D&D into a kiddified property, bowdlerise, purge, cleanse, sterilise it until it has not one single thing remotely non-SJW-friendly about it and ram it down the public's gullet and tell them to like it. Weapons? Nope. Spells? Heaven forbid! Monsters, demons, devils? Nevermore! Conflict of any kind is solved by time-outs, hugs and long discussions about feelings, and most importantly, EVERYONE IS A WINNER!
*eyeroll*
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2020 14:40:47 GMT -6
At least you have eyes to roll. Mine were left at the next to last post. Now wait a minute...
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Post by asaki on Dec 3, 2020 14:54:44 GMT -6
The RPG might be reduced to a bare minimum, but hell- They still own the rights to Dragonquest and have been sitting on it (having got it from the WOTC purchase-them having got it from TSR's purchase of SPI). So how does that work? They own the rights to the game itself, but the trademark on the name expired? Because Enix stopped calling their games "Dragon Warrior" quite some time ago. |
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Post by jeffb on Dec 3, 2020 15:02:40 GMT -6
The RPG might be reduced to a bare minimum, but hell- They still own the rights to Dragonquest and have been sitting on it (having got it from the WOTC purchase-them having got it from TSR's purchase of SPI). So how does that work? They own the rights to the game itself, but the trademark on the name expired? Because Enix stopped calling their games "Dragon Warrior" quite some time ago. IANAL I just know, that DQ is tied up by WOTC, and this is why you have not seen it since TSRs 3rd edition. |
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Post by tdenmark on Dec 3, 2020 16:59:59 GMT -6
What Hasbro does with WotC and D&D doesn't have a single grain of impact upon me, my friends, family, fellow OSR enthusiasts, etc. Can they bungle the name and IP further? Yes, and probably will, but that won't prevent me from playing older ediitons which I have now. I've been watching the sickening abuse of D&D ever since the TSR buyout. In time, Disney will buy Hasbro, turn D&D into a kiddified property, bowdlerise, purge, cleanse, sterilise it until it has not one single thing remotely non-SJW-friendly about it and ram it down the public's gullet and tell them to like it. Weapons? Nope. Spells? Heaven forbid! Monsters, demons, devils? Nevermore! Conflict of any kind is solved by time-outs, hugs and long discussions about feelings, and most importantly, EVERYONE IS A WINNER! *eyeroll* *eyeroll* |
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Post by tdenmark on Dec 3, 2020 17:05:02 GMT -6
Which still saddens me. DragonQuest is a gem. After reading through DragonQuest I never got what's so great about it. Maybe I need to see it in action. |
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Post by jeffb on Dec 3, 2020 18:02:11 GMT -6
Which still saddens me. DragonQuest is a gem. After reading through DragonQuest I never got what's so great about it. Maybe I need to see it in action. 1st edition was pretty rough. 2nd fixed the main rules issues. |
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Post by Desparil on Dec 3, 2020 19:20:25 GMT -6
The RPG might be reduced to a bare minimum, but hell- They still own the rights to Dragonquest and have been sitting on it (having got it from the WOTC purchase-them having got it from TSR's purchase of SPI). So how does that work? They own the rights to the game itself, but the trademark on the name expired? Because Enix stopped calling their games "Dragon Warrior" quite some time ago. The Square Enix game is two words, Dragon Quest, and has a very different logo and is in a different business sector. Clearly lawyers decided that's enough to differentiate the two brands despite the similar names, at least to such a point that there's an unacceptable risk of losing if they brought an infringement suit. Consider the case last year brought by McDonald's against an Irish fast food chain called Supermacs that ended in a costly and embarrassing defeat for McD's. |
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Post by tdenmark on Dec 3, 2020 20:47:59 GMT -6
I absolutely love/adore/enjoy Jay Little's Star Wars system for FFG. Jay is a pretty fantastic designer. I worked with him on a prototype many years ago that was never published, but he put a ton of great ideas in it. The way these things go at a big company, the designer rarely gets full freedom or final say. Many hands get involved along the way. Which, interestingly enough, is why Apple uses very small teams to incubate products. |
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Post by tombowings on Dec 3, 2020 22:55:50 GMT -6
After reading through DragonQuest I never got what's so great about it. Maybe I need to see it in action. 1st edition was pretty rough. 2nd fixed the main rules issues. To be fair, the 2nd edition could also use some cleaning up, but the core ideas of DQ Colleges of Magic and classes as skills (thief, ranger, astronomer, etc.) are excellent. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2020 23:53:44 GMT -6
What a bleak and depressing picture. ...And what an oddly specific one! Honestly, the article in question on ICV2 is an exercise in theoretical reaching. First, the numbers WotC is netting are looking good; second, the license is future passive income: As long as third parties are staging musicals and radioplays, as long as writers of calibre, like MW/TH, are approaching Hasbro about licensing their properties, D&D or MtG are not changing hands. If Hasbro doesn't sell them, they'll tear WotC apart and absorb the IP under the overarching Hasbro umbrella. We are seeing that, right now, if conventional wisdom applies. Especially the interpersonal antics - these people could all be idiots, sure. Or they could be guys who know that the ship is sinking, and are trying to buy their tickets back to shore in their own way. its success with 5e was a smart move and bought it some time, but its business practices since then have been questionable at best. That's the underlying logical fallacy you're committing, I think: 5e's success was not "a smart move"; it was the result of good work. WotC keep putting out good work, with better interpersonal management, they can still be quite successful with D&D beyond 5e. - Now, the problem D&D is facing right now is a lack of modern profile. 5e is basically "Saltmarsh" and "Ravenloft", not much more, and the nostalgic incentive to purchase will go away eventually. I think the eventual 6e is going to see a renewed focus on fiction, so D&D keeps a distinguishable profile compared to other games. How that works out, too early to call, but if the video games are an indicator, an FR Reboot might be at the core of the operation. Ed Greenwood and R. A. Salvatore are two of the youngest - and arguably the only two remaining - successful "Golden Age" writers, and they have both been concluding product circles in 2019 and 2020. What do you think they are working on, right now?  What Hasbro does with WotC and D&D doesn't have a single grain of impact upon me, my friends, family, fellow OSR enthusiasts, etc. Can they bungle the name and IP further? Yes, and probably will, but that won't prevent me from playing older ediitons which I have now. I've been watching the sickening abuse of D&D ever since the TSR buyout. Key sentence here. The brand and the culture are separated, at this point. Whatever Wizbro decides to do with the brand, eventually - it will not rattle many gaming tables. The "new, better D&D" doesn't have to carry the brand name to please the fans of gaming culture. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 4, 2020 6:01:54 GMT -6
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Post by thegreyelf on Dec 4, 2020 11:54:33 GMT -6
[That's the underlying logical fallacy you're committing, I think: 5e's success was not "a smart move"; it was the result of good work. WotC keep putting out good work, with better interpersonal management, they can still be quite successful with D&D beyond 5e. - Now, the problem D&D is facing right now is a lack of modern profile. 5e is basically "Saltmarsh" and "Ravenloft", not much more, and the nostalgic incentive to purchase will go away eventually. I think the eventual 6e is going to see a renewed focus on fiction, so D&D keeps a distinguishable profile compared to other games. How that works out, too early to call, but if the video games are an indicator, an FR Reboot might be at the core of the operation. Ed Greenwood and R. A. Salvatore are two of the youngest - and arguably the only two remaining - successful "Golden Age" writers, and they have both been concluding product circles in 2019 and 2020. What do you think they are working on, right now? In the end, this is as much opinion as what I posted--you don't know at all what went on behind the scenes at WotC, and I'd say a smart move requires good work. I feel like you're trying to make my statement something other than it was. 5th Edition D&D, and the way it was handled, was a smart business move on WotC's part. Period. Certainly it was hard work that made it happen, and the wisdom to go back to OD&D and see what the roots of D&D were--what made D&D into D&D. I VEHEMENTLY disagree about your statement regarding "Saltmarsh" and "Ravenloft." It's success thus far has been ENTIRELY predicated on Forgotten Realms, not Greyhawk nor Ravenloft. Those two setting books were an aberration that appealed to old school fans, but old school fans have NOT been the success of 5e. In fact, we're not even on their radar. The new generation of gamers are their bread and butter. Unfortunately, their racist and sexist hiring practices and sudden spate of contract violations have seriously damaged their credibility with a lot of their core audience. THIS, in the end, will be what causes Hasbro to break up WotC and absorb the property. Then we're back to "Hasbro has no idea how to handle a tabletop RPG." I stand by my statement, Rafe, and I feel like you cited in on one single word in it to accuse me of a logical fallacy where none exists. Smart move and hard work are in no way mutually exclusive, and 5e DID, in fact, buy D&D time where during the end of 4e that game was in serious trouble. My statement isn't a logical fallacy; it's a prediction of what is going to happen when 5e runs its course, and I think the writing is on the wall. In the end, however, both of us are speculating and we'll have to wait and see what happens. |
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Post by jeffb on Dec 4, 2020 16:39:46 GMT -6
1st edition was pretty rough. 2nd fixed the main rules issues. To be fair, the 2nd edition could also use some cleaning up, but the core ideas of DQ Colleges of Magic and classes as skills (thief, ranger, astronomer, etc.) are excellent. Quite true. I'm guessing I should have inserted "several of" in front of "the main rules issues". Also agreed I love the "skills", which to me seem to be a precursor to career "package deals" in HERO system games ala Espionage! and Justice, Inc. It also had some excellent adventure material in Frontiers of Alusia and The Enchanted Wood (Jacquays!) |
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Post by jeffb on Dec 4, 2020 16:43:47 GMT -6
I absolutely love/adore/enjoy Jay Little's Star Wars system for FFG. Jay is a pretty fantastic designer. I worked with him on a prototype many years ago that was never published, but he put a ton of great ideas in it. The way these things go at a big company, the designer rarely gets full freedom or final say. Many hands get involved along the way. Which, interestingly enough, is why Apple uses very small teams to incubate products. That's awesome. He seems like a cool dood! I do not believe in any way that this is a major "fault" of Jay's. Rather that Modiphius had their "many hands" in it, as you say. |
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