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Post by Punkrabbitt on Apr 27, 2020 17:31:50 GMT -6
Hi there!
Which of the various retro-clones comes closest to the original OD&D using Chainmail in a single set of rules?
Thank you!
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muddy
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 159 
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Post by muddy on Apr 27, 2020 19:18:54 GMT -6
This board filled with people more qualified than me to answer, but that won't stop me!
I think one question would be which of the combat systems you are going to use. If it is the Chainmail based one, then I can't help.
If it is using the "alternative" system that as far as I know almost everyone used, then maybe Blueholme but don't allow thieves? It feels like OD&D to me when I run it.
Honestly though, there are many people who know the ins and outs of the various clones much better than I do.
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 28, 2020 4:48:54 GMT -6
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Post by Vile Traveller on Apr 28, 2020 5:22:49 GMT -6
Delving Deeper digs into Chainmail to supplement its OD&D rules.
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Post by jeffb on Apr 28, 2020 5:30:52 GMT -6
Another vote for Delving Deeper.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Apr 28, 2020 23:47:10 GMT -6
Thanks guys!
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 29, 2020 1:10:48 GMT -6
Delving Deeper digs into Chainmail to supplement its OD&D rules. Really? What am I missing? I have Delving Deeper and read through it, though I haven't played it the system appears very much just OD&D with the alternative combat system. I'm not seeing the Chainmail stuff. Forbidden Lore is very much just Chainmail as D&D. Compleat Chainmail even more so. |
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Apr 29, 2020 1:14:27 GMT -6
Delving Deeper digs into Chainmail to supplement its OD&D rules. Really? What am I missing? I have Delving Deeper and read through it, though I haven't played it the system appears very much just OD&D with the alternative combat system. I'm not seeing the Chainmail stuff. Forbidden Lore is very much just Chainmail as D&D. Compleat Chainmail even more so. What or where is Compleat Chainmail? Thank you |
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Post by thegreyelf on Apr 29, 2020 4:45:48 GMT -6
Spellcraft & Swordplay was built from the GROUND UP to be OD&D using Chainmail as a mechanical system. You won't find closer. www.elflair.com/products.html |
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Post by Piper on Apr 29, 2020 6:57:36 GMT -6
I have Delving Deeper and read through it, though I haven't played it the system appears very much just OD&D with the alternative combat system. I'm not seeing the Chainmail stuff. You may have an earlier version of DD. The latest version, Fourth edition, I believe may be more to your liking. |
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 29, 2020 10:53:31 GMT -6
Spellcraft & Swordplay was built from the GROUND UP to be OD&D using Chainmail as a mechanical system. You won't find closer. www.elflair.com/products.htmlYes, this is a very good one. Two thumbs up. |
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Post by aldarron on Apr 29, 2020 11:00:35 GMT -6
So this is easy. While Champions of ZED isn't precisely a retro-clone, it is the only game that was designed from the start as a 3lbb + CHAINMAIL combat system. Referees can use either a mass combat or man to man derived method.
I basically took the "OD&D with CHAINMAIL" pamplet and built the ZED system off of that. That was meant to be part of the charm.
The rest of the rules, as you probably know, are 3lbb/BTPBD derived along with "best of" Gygax/Arneson houserules from over the years.
Just FYI, an edition of ZED will be coming out with the Tonisborg book that drops the CM combat methods in favor of the simple historical d20 method that led to the "alternate" tables.
There's also Jason's Spellcraft and Swordplay, which uses the CM man to man system very well. It is a bit more generic in terms of the rule systems it is built off of - not specifically OD&D.
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Post by thegreyelf on Apr 29, 2020 11:14:06 GMT -6
Actually, Spellcraft & Swordplay was built specifically off of OD&D. Like ZED, it's not strictly a retroclone, but the entire design from top to bottom was to examine where OD&D would've gone had Chainmail been the default instead of the d20 "alternate" combat system. ZED is an outstanding option as well, though.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Apr 29, 2020 20:00:25 GMT -6
What I am really trying to do is wrap my head around using Chainmail and D&D together. And everyone is getting me a lot of help in that department. Which I really, really appreciate.
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Post by Red Baron on Apr 29, 2020 20:17:15 GMT -6
Delving Deeper digs into Chainmail to supplement its OD&D rules. Really? What am I missing? I have Delving Deeper and read through it, though I haven't played it the system appears very much just OD&D with the alternative combat system. I'm not seeing the Chainmail stuff. DD doesn't use the chainmail combat resolution mechanics, but it does really dig heavily into chainmail rules. |
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 30, 2020 1:25:43 GMT -6
Original Edition Delta had a book called OED 0DD Encounters that was a supplement for the Book of War. It could be seen as a primitive step from Chainmail towards OD&D. But I don't see it available on the website anymore.
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Post by Hans E Magnusson on Apr 30, 2020 4:27:11 GMT -6
Original Edition Delta had a book called OED 0DD Encounters that was a supplement for the Book of War. It could be seen as a primitive step from Chainmail towards OD&D. But I don't see it available on the website anymore. |
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 30, 2020 5:57:44 GMT -6
cool, thanks Hans. I wonder why I couldn't find it.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 30, 2020 6:38:04 GMT -6
Delving Deeper digs into Chainmail to supplement its OD&D rules. Really? What am I missing? I have Delving Deeper and read through it, though I haven't played it the system appears very much just OD&D with the alternative combat system. I'm not seeing the Chainmail stuff. I'm reluctant to proclaim anything as "the one". IMHO the best experience can be had by combining the various parts of different sources that suit you best. Are you are after a wargame with RPG elements, or an RPG with wargame elements? Or something else? DD is an RPG with wargamey sensibilities, with the "Chainmail stuff" more prominent with each subsequent version. In V5 (albeit still in alpha, download here) it's pretty hard to miss. It has 2d6 and d20 combat matrices--the latter built around normal, heroic, superheroic FCs--and a detailed CM-based combat turn sequence (which will likely end up as an appendix). From the normal/heroic combat split, magic weapons adding dice in normal combat, heroes unaffected by fewer than four normal hits, elves as combination figures, moving and firing and 18" shooting range, and shooting magical bows as heroes, to dwarves mining twice as quickly, morale, and thru to the Phatasamal Host spell, CM details are baked into DD5 from front to back. If you're interested, there are a handful of excerpts from the annotated DD5 on these boards here: odd74.proboards.com/thread/12916/annotated-dd-v5odd74.proboards.com/thread/13370/annotated-ddThe full annotated book one (alpha) is at the download link above. Enjoy  |
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Post by thegreyelf on Apr 30, 2020 6:47:57 GMT -6
What I am really trying to do is wrap my head around using Chainmail and D&D together. And everyone is getting me a lot of help in that department. Which I really, really appreciate. If that's all you need, check this out: www.grey-elf.com/compleat-chainmail.pdf |
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Post by countingwizard on Apr 30, 2020 8:58:53 GMT -6
What I am really trying to do is wrap my head around using Chainmail and D&D together. And everyone is getting me a lot of help in that department. Which I really, really appreciate. There are a lot of ways to do this. I recommend just using the LBB's as written and a copy of the Chainmail rules. The best approach is to run a battle of armies with fantastic figures and normal figures, and then run a battle of man-to-man combat using fantastic figures and normal figures. Takes about an hour each. Once you do that, you get a better understanding of how the changes from D&D fit in (d6 damage and d6 hitpoints, and maybe the alternate combat tables if you don't want to use the chainmail tables). Chainmail is waaaaay more open to interpretation than the LBB's so every referee seems to run it differently. The issue with OSR is that retroclones are usually first and foremost a set of house rules, and second an interpretation of the rules as written; probably to circumvent copyright infringement. The issue with OD&D is that even without dozens of possible interpretations of the rules from the LBB, you also have to deal with whether or not an author chooses to include rules/content from the first three supplements, and if they interpret OD&D as using Chainmail that exponentially increases the number of interpretations. |
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Apr 30, 2020 10:07:35 GMT -6
See, here's what happened. I bought the new D&D Starter Set a couple of weeks ago, after having pretty much exclusively reading 0e and retroclones for the last four years or so. And I hated it. So, I really want to get back to the original basics. Forbidden Lore and Compleat Chainmail have really bridged the gap in my mind. And every time I look at Delving Deeper, I am amazed at how cool it is. countingwizard, playing a few games of Chainmail with increasing complexity is exactly the plan I stumbled upon myself a few days ago. Yesterday I finished up one side with papercraft standees:  |
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Post by countingwizard on Apr 30, 2020 10:25:52 GMT -6
It's important to mix in some fantasy figures too in both scenarios since figuring out how to integrate them is the basis for D&D.
And believe it or not the base shape and size of each figure plays a huge part. The originals were irregular shaped.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Apr 30, 2020 15:22:07 GMT -6
There is an ogre in the orc forces, no worries. And a spellcaster. But I am starting simple.
EDIT: did I say ogre? I meant hill giant. BONK!
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Post by tdenmark on May 1, 2020 7:26:22 GMT -6
I'm impressed at how much love Chainmail gets on this forum.
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Post by ishmann on May 7, 2020 17:25:40 GMT -6
Where did Delving Deeper go? It in my library on Drive Thru RPG but when I click to download it says its not available.
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Post by hamurai on May 8, 2020 23:09:59 GMT -6
My downloads are working. Maybe it's an issue with their download server? Have you checked again?
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Post by ishmann on May 9, 2020 16:38:58 GMT -6
My downloads are working. Maybe it's an issue with their download server? Have you checked again? I’ll be darned. I tried again after reading your post and it working! Thanks 😁 |
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Post by hamurai on May 10, 2020 6:25:45 GMT -6
No problem, glad you've got access to your books again |
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