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Post by thomden on Jun 7, 2021 18:20:52 GMT -6
Funny how that non-existent source material started trickling in piecemeal after a while, though. A little Thrawn here. A little Palpatine cloning here, etc. Yeah, funny isn't it now that some filmmakers who are actually familiar with Star Wars are getting involved we are seeing, you know, Star Wars, or at least something that resembles it. (Rogue One is the exception, that was pretty close to being Star Wars) JJ acted like he was a fan, but I suspect at most he only saw the original trilogy. As for the others involved with the sequels? It felt like they maybe saw the original once, didn't really like it, and somehow found themselves in charge of the franchise. I would have been happy just to have seen Luke Skywalker, because that wasn't Luke on the screen, and I'd argue that wasn't Han or Leia either, just the same actors. People age and grow of course, but they didn't even resemble those characters personality wise or in the way they were written and directed. And would it have killed them to have at least one scene with the trio in it together? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 18:49:20 GMT -6
Edit: For some reason quoting isn't working, I've quoted: "I would have been happy just to have seen Luke Skywalker, because that wasn't Luke on the screen, and I'd argue that wasn't Han or Leia either, just the same actors. People age and grow of course, but they didn't even resemble those characters personality wise or in the way they were written and directed."--- I suspect that's a script quality issue. Really, I wouldn't be surprised if Harrison Ford just said "ok, I can show up but kill me so I don't have to be in the next movies". I'm not a Scriptwriter or a professional in Cinema or something, but I think that it's the Scriptwriter and Director job to excite not only the viewers (with the final result) but also the actors. It's just like in our RPG games (theater), no way you can have a nice roleplay (movie) if you don't like your character (script) or the game/adventure (script again) at all. There is also the fact that in the first trilogy they were protagonists. I'm not saying that they should have been protagonists again, but I would not mind if it was the case.  Being protagonists the scripts would have been stronger towards them and they would certainly be able to, or have to, act accordingly.
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 7, 2021 19:31:24 GMT -6
In hindsight, how I would have done the Sequel Trilogy:
1. The time: 100 years after the end of Return of the Jedi. Luke, Leia, Han, and Lando are all safely dead and buried.
2. What's been going on: Chewbacca (who lives hundreds of years) and C-3PO and R2-D2 (who are effectively immortal) are still zooming around the galaxy in the Millennium Falcon.
3. Then what? Chewbacca and the two droids meet Rey, Finn, and Poe. The six together then zoom around the galaxy in the Falcon, having pulpy adventures.
4. Rey finds Luke's lightsabre. She starts practicing with it.
5. In the third and final movie, she hears Luke's disembodied voice (as Luke heard Ben's disembodied voice over the Death Star).
6. End credits, John Williams music triumphantly playing.
Sheer boyhood fun, zero angst.
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Post by thomden on Jun 7, 2021 21:59:13 GMT -6
They needed Luke, Han, and Leia for marketing, so they were always going to be in there.
I don't think there was any way they were going to make all the fans happy, but it is like they deliberately set on a course to piss half the fans off. As for that other half who do like them, good for you. I wish I could enjoy them too. I'd much rather be able to pop them in the player and watch them over and over with my kids.
Instead I find myself here complaining about them. And I don't even mean too. At this point as much as Star Wars gave me joy from the time I was 8, it has more than made up for that in annoyance since then.
I should just be glad we got Luke in his full jedi glory in the last episode of Mandalorian.
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Post by thomden on Jun 7, 2021 22:01:02 GMT -6
haha, so I just learned if you use the word b followed by itch it comes out "pregnant dog". So my post above said "I find myself here pregnant..."
Very funny.
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 7, 2021 22:06:09 GMT -6
...it is like they deliberately set on a course to piss half the fans off. Episode VII: Han Solo Dies! Episode VIII: Luke Skywalker Dies! Episode IX: Princess Leia Dies! It's preposterous. It's as though they were checking-off boxes. |
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Post by Falconer on Jun 8, 2021 1:53:02 GMT -6
What I would have done with the SW franchise if I were Disney in 2012:
1. Elevate The Thrawn Trilogy (the novels as novels) all the way up to the very top canon level. It’s a beloved trilogy which nails the universe, the characters, the story, the feel, and the Force. There was no reason to ever tread on it. It was not only the foundation for the EU, but also the PT, TCW, games, guides, etc. all uncritically accepted it as gospel and incorporated its ideas and lore liberally. Be coy at this point about whether they are considered Episodes VII, VIII, and IX.
2. I like how TFA came out, I think it’s fun and gorgeous and iconic in its own right, so that’s still the first movie I make. There are tweaks I would make, but I don’t want to dwell on it. The biggest tweak is I would not call it an Episode, and I wouldn’t call it Star Wars: The Force Awakens, I would rather call it Han Solo and the Stolen Star Map or something pulpy and unpretentious like that.
3. Make as many Episodes about Luke Skywalker as possible, basically as many as Mark Hamill is willing and able to make. Start the first one with an episode number such as, like, XVIII or something like that—totally random and just harking back to that original “serial” conceit and suggesting that you just missed a few. The whole SW franchise leads to this: the tale of a wise and powerful Jedi Knight, having endless adventures bringing vigilante justice to the far corners of the galaxy.
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Post by thomden on Jun 8, 2021 4:20:11 GMT -6
What I would have done with the SW franchise if I were Disney in 2012: 1. Elevate The Thrawn Trilogy (the novels as novels) all the way up to the very top canon level. 3. Make as many Episodes about Luke Skywalker as possible, basically as many as Mark Hamill is willing and able to make. 1. It is pretty clear when Disney got the IP and starting sorting through it and trying to figure out the whole canon thing just threw their hands up and said we don't understand any of this, screw it, it's all voided now. If you've ever been in software development its like when a new engineer gets on the team and is assigned a task, instead of trying to figure out the code that is already there he/she says screw it and writes it from scratch. Almost always making it worse and breaks things because he/she didn't understand how it worked. (clue from a long term fan: the canon wasn't all that hard to figure out, in fact it was quite clever and orderly and allowed for constant new content. It's all busted now, a total mess.) 3. Yep. What the did instead was like MCU without Robert Downey jr as Tony Stark. Which will be interesting to see how well that does moving forward. At least they have a few other beloved characters to work with. |
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Post by acodispo on Jun 8, 2021 12:18:01 GMT -6
That article is baffling. It isn't baffling. Kathleen Kennedy claimed there was no source material to work from to make Star Wars movies. You can imagine that didn't go over well with fans who have supported the Expanded Universe for over 40 years. Tiny quibble, but I think we're in danger of misreading Kennedy's statement here. She said: "Every one of these movies is a particularly hard nut to crack. There’s no source material." Emphasis added.
I'm reading that to mean that for these new movies that are being invented out of whole cloth instead of drawing from existing material, there is (of course) no source material to draw from. It is a tautology, but it's not a denial that the EU material exists. It's just a re-statement of the facts: "Because we decided not to use the existing source material, we've had to create our own material." Well of course they did!
This isn't in any way a defense of the resulting content -- I am a big EU fan and by-and-large horribly disappointed in the Disney Star Wars stuff.  |
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Post by thomden on Jun 8, 2021 15:20:06 GMT -6
Yeah, you could split hairs with her statement. Unfortunately it was already clear she had no interest in the established canon, so that comment hit a real sore spot with long time fans.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Jun 8, 2021 21:58:02 GMT -6
My ranking of every Star Wars movie, from best to worst:
A New Hope
Return Of The Jedi
Empire Strikes Back
As far as I'm concerned, that's all there is.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2021 5:46:47 GMT -6
2. I like how TFA came out, I think it’s fun and gorgeous and iconic in its own right, so that’s still the first movie I make. There are tweaks I would make, but I don’t want to dwell on it. The biggest tweak is I would not call it an Episode, and I wouldn’t call it Star Wars: The Force Awakens, I would rather call it Han Solo and the Stolen Star Map or something pulpy and unpretentious like that. Eh...respectfully disagree. I enjoyed it when I first watched it, but it's become increasingly obvious that TFA is where the very many foundational problems of the sequel timeline began. The most glaring one of all is the entire status quo of Resistance vs First Order is never explained in any fashion. It's like they completely undermined the ending of ROTJ and reset the galactic situation to the way it was when Star Wars '77 began. I guess. I mean, it's never really shown to be a galactic scale conflict, and the Republic doesn't seem to be involved at all? Again, this is going just by TFA. I suppose maybe novels or something explain more, but the other two movies really don't, and we're not counting them here anyway. Also, why would Han and Chewie go back to just being smugglers again after all they've been through? They had an entire character arc in the OT. Maybe I expected too much because they continued to evolve along those lines in the EU books I enjoyed growing up. I just can't accept that Han gives up everything he fought for, including Leia. I don't like it one bit and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Also, Luke would never abandon his sister, I don't care what anyone says. As for Leia, why wouldn't she be high up in the New Republic at this point? I don't get the whole dynamic at all or what her role in the galaxy is. What even is the "Resistance"? If the New Republic is in charge, why aren't they fighting the edgy neo-Nazi cosplayers pretending to be the Empire? As for the new characters in this, they were fun. Rey was bubbly and quirky, but a little too perfect and good at everything she tried. Finn is good comic relief and had potential as an ex-Stormtrooper who might possibly one day free his comrades down the line. Poe as the crack pilot combines elements of Wedge Antilles and Han Solo of old and that's a welcome dynamic. They're not fleshed out a whole bunch here. In TFA, Snoke seems mysterious, and the dynamic of Hux and Kylo battling for his attention is interesting, but Kylo is more funny than threatening to me. He's like a whiny emo loser who wants to be a cool, edgy Sith but he's just not. I dunno. It feels more like a Guardians of the Galaxy movie than a Star Wars movie to me. The humor and characterization are "off" for the brand. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2021 9:35:36 GMT -6
The humor touch is a problem in my humble opinion.
They want to repeat it in every movie nowadays because Marvel did and succeed, everyone think that they should do it as well and want to drink from this fountain.
I don't think that Star Wars have much space for humor except regarding smart lines and creative situations, but not really "funny lines".
Look at those last Warner/DC movies, they're horrible because of this same problem. Batman don't joke. At least not those ones they wrote.
They should ask Christopher Nolan to write and direct any other future DC movies IMO.
People don't like The Dark Knight Rises but it is the best movie for me.
Bane is a nice antagonist, and he DEFEATS Batman!
Talia also, she managed to manipulate Batman (and probably spectators) just nice.
When they throw Batman in The Pit, the sensation is that he will fail. Batman was really defeated, even though you know it's a Batman movie and he will succeed in the end, the feeling during all the movie is that he will fail. He suffered. He gave up. And he keep failing again and again.
Let's compare this to the last trilogy.
Snoke had a lot of potential, he was really mysterious and looked like he was very strong, but they just trashed it incredibly fast.
Captain Phasma was also a very nice antagonist, I thought she would be the new "Fett", she was badass. But they did it again...
Rey doesn't seems to fail, she basically defeated a Sith Master without knowing how to use a Lightsaber, she never trained, but just managed to defeat Kylo Ren in the forest scene. That's ridiculous.
They also should never had leave that room when they killed Snoke, those Elite Guards they fought are incredibly powerful, no way they would make their way out of it.
Those supposed antagonists never represented a threat really, Snoke was mysterious in the beginning but only that. Phasma ended was being pathetic.
Bane was a threat, he had presence, he was brutal, and to succeed defeating Batman, he trained, suffered. A lot.
Even Bane made kind of a "Villain's Journey" to be able to defeat Batman, or at least this is the tale told by the movie.
The problem with those movies today is that it lacks this same "Hero's Journey".
In our society nowadays no one is allowed to suffer, everything needs to be easy and good, there's no struggle. Society is weak and sensitive, everything offends, and our movies are reflecting that.
I would say that they made this trilogy for kids, but looking back there is a lot of kid's movie where the hero suffers and made the Hero's Journey as well.
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Post by Falconer on Jun 10, 2021 10:05:23 GMT -6
I really do see your points, and I don’t wish to disagree too vigorously. I did even say I would make tweaks. So take this, my headcanon, with more than a grain of salt. I do want to get into it just because it’s kind of fun.
If The Adventures of Luke Skywalker are a classic pulp serial of never-ending adventure, rather than a Wagnerian Saga, then you are going to see constant setbacks and comebacks. It’s sometimes corny, but that’s alright. TFA is not a completely coherent continuation of the EU, but it is the same sort of stuff they did in the EU.
The First Order
In the EU, you constantly saw Imperial remnants invading the New Republic from the outside. There are also suggestions of terrible threats and awesome mysteries awaiting in the Unknown Regions (Zahn’s creation, by the way), not to mention the biggest Imperial remnant of all.
The Resistance
In Dark Empire the New Republic removed their headquarters to Pinnacle Base and was effectively a Rebellion again. The post-RotJ status quo is maintained before and after. Also, in The Bacta War and various points in the X-Wing novels, Wedge and/or Corran went black ops or even fully rogue, setting up their own bases and building their own fleets to more effectively counter some threat. At the end of the day, our heroes always return to Coruscant and the bosom of the New Republic, peace restored to the Galaxy. Remember, the TFA opening crawl states, “With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE.” After watching TFA, I thought, and still feel, the First Order invasion was thwarted and the New Republic remained intact—the status quo is restored. Luke and Rey literally and figuratively stand on the precipice of endless adventure in the Unknown Regions, which is exactly where Vision of the Future poises Luke and Mara.
Luke
Rejecting, of course, the sour turn of events in TLJ, the handling of Luke in TFA was brilliant, even perfect, to me. Jedi are ascetics, and the ascetic tradition is all about withdrawing from the world to fight a solitary spiritual struggle, only to return to the world full of grace and wisdom, prepared to lead the flock. It’s all over the lives of the saints, and perhaps best summed up in Seraphim of Sarov’s famous quote, “Acquire the Spirit of Peace and a thousand souls around you will be saved.” The mystique and excitement around the quest for Luke builds the whole movie, from the opening crawl and the first lines of dialogue about the map, to Han’s solemn “It’s true” scene, to the R2 hibernation bits, to the INCREDIBLE finale with the sublime music (The Trip / The Jedi Steps) and shots of the island, and the reveal of Luke’s beatific face. Our hero is back!
Han
I think he has a bit of a fun arc in SW, but it’s immediately rebooted in the beginning of ESB when he decides to go back “solo” to go pay Jabba. He’s sucked back in by events outside of his control (just like in SW), but basically it is contrived to keep him functioning as the Falcon’s captain in the movie. In RotJ he seems resigned to being a good member of the cause, but frankly, he is completely neutered in RotJ and never gets to do anything cool. So I honestly think TFA handled him perfectly. He’s in his element, he’s captaining the Falcon, he’s sucked back into the cause and of course immediately welcomed back with open arms. And Harrison Ford put in a surprisingly charming and energetic performance here (surprisingly because he had seemed so tired and cranky in the terrible IJ4). I would have liked for him not to die, but that was supposedly Ford’s condition.
* * *
So again, I have reservations about this movie, but it definitely is more good than bad, for me. As you say, Rey and Finn are likable characters, there’s lots of great chases and escapes, compelling mysteries, stark vistas, it really hit a lot of great notes. And speaking of notes, I am *obsessed* with the score (albeit not the OST as released, but rather the “For Your Consideration” album and the many orchestral suites which have been released).
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Post by thomden on Jun 10, 2021 15:52:10 GMT -6
Yeah, I kind of liked TFA the first time I watched it, but as with a lot of JJ Abram's movies it's like cotton candy. The joy disappears quickly.
I think some of the visuals were fantastic.
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 10, 2021 17:21:27 GMT -6
In terms of visuals, my favorite part of the Sequel Trilogy was the Falcon flying through the crystalline caverns in The Last Jedi (followed by the red explosions on the white salt planet in the same film).
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Post by tkdco2 on Jun 15, 2021 22:40:26 GMT -6
...it is like they deliberately set on a course to piss half the fans off. Episode VII: Han Solo Dies! Episode VIII: Luke Skywalker Dies! Episode IX: Princess Leia Dies! It's preposterous. It's as though they were checking-off boxes. Han Solo dying: Harrison Ford wanted to kill off Han Solo since Return of the Jedi. Letting him do that may have been the only way to get him to do another Star Wars movie. Luke Skywalker dying: Maybe that could have been avoided. I knew he would return as a Force ghost anyway. Like Obi Wan and Yoda, he's dead, but not quite. Princess Leia dying: Unfortunately, Carrie Fisher died before Episode 9 started filming. I can't blame Disney, or anyone else, for that one. |
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Post by howandwhy99 on Jun 15, 2021 23:38:36 GMT -6
Star Wars 77
Empire & Jedi - it's a 2-parter
Both are awesome. I don't consider branding purchases as legitimately the same author. (Even when the same author screws it all up later).
I feel it's better to not accept clear discrepancies from even the same author in the work than to demand their inclusion as the same identity. Like Godfather III or the Godfather TV show.
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Post by plethon on Jun 17, 2021 14:41:52 GMT -6
I loved the Prequel trilogy, and there were a bunch of great novels that went along with it: Plagueis, Cloak of Deception are two of my favorites. It was peak Star Wars for me. I see the Sequel trilogy as divine punishment for the irrational hatred of the Prequels, as if to show us what 'bad' really is. The Prequels are visual epics, and the subtle political machinations going on in the background are ingenious. It expanded the aesthetic of the universe immensely without losing the feel of the originals, and gave us tons of iconic new designs. I place it firmly next to the originals |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2021 17:01:06 GMT -6
James Luceno wrote both Plagueis and Cloak of Deception and I enjoy both immensely. Two very different Palpatine stories, one focusing more on his identity as Senator from Naboo and the other as his alter ego Darth Sidious, navigating the intricacies of the Dark Side, but the two stories interweave around one another and make a really interesting and compelling single story. I can easily see this character being a younger version of Emperor Palpatine from the OT, but what I can't envision is him being the same character from Rise of Skywalker. There's just a huge disconnect with the original mastermind character when he cheats death and gets a thousand Death Star super lasers, and then announces his master plan over the galactic holonet ahead of time, giving the good guys ample time to retaliate. That's not the Palpatine that engineered the downfall of the Republic. That's some Saturday morning cartoon villain level of stupidity.
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Post by doublejig2 on Jun 17, 2021 17:13:33 GMT -6
That's some Saturday morning cartoon villain level of stupidity. The reviled Scrappy doo! |
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Post by thomden on Jun 17, 2021 22:19:36 GMT -6
I loved the Prequel trilogy, and there were a bunch of great novels that went along with it: Plagueis, Cloak of Deception are two of my favorites. It was peak Star Wars for me. I see the Sequel trilogy as divine punishment for the irrational hatred of the Prequels, as if to show us what 'bad' really is. The Prequels are visual epics, and the subtle political machinations going on in the background are ingenious. It expanded the aesthetic of the universe immensely without losing the feel of the originals, and gave us tons of iconic new designs. I place it firmly next to the originals One year I was at San Diego Comic Con and there was a HUGE Star Wars booth in the center of the convention. They played montages from the prequels the whole time, you couldn't hear anything and they looked like amazing movies up there on the giant screens. It has a bad reputation for too much "bad" CGI. But most of the movie was practical miniatures and FX. I went to a show of the props from the movie and was surprised at how many real models there were. The problem is the worst CGI was in your face so much (Jar Jar I'm looking at you). |
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Post by aramis on Jun 18, 2021 1:27:47 GMT -6
aramisBold choices, placing TFA and Mandalorian below the Holiday Special!  I gave Mandalorian 6 episodes. I didn't like it. I found it mostly boring. TFA, like all of JJ-Trek, was a fun ride, but didn't feel like the source material. Fun, but not feeling like it belongs in canon. I enjoyed the Holiday special back when it first aired, and again when I found it pirated on line. And each time I've watched it. It's campy, but it's fun. And remember, when I first saw it, it was the second installment of live action Star Wars... Christmastime of 1978. ESB was in the works. Eveeryone knew the movie was a hit... but would lightning strike twice? Also, keep in mind: several variety shows were on air... Muppet Show, Sha Na Na, Hee Haw, Carol Burnett... and still selling commercials. It was a star studded cast. Sure, it's a hollywood produced bollywood-style essentially fan-work... but for a 9 year old wanting new Star Wars content? It was awesome! |
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Post by aramis on Jun 18, 2021 1:31:32 GMT -6
If you're going to go that far might as well add in the Ewok movies (Caravan of Courage and The Battle for Endor). Also, seems like you'd include The Clone Wars and Resistance. All of which I'd rank higher than The Last Jedi. But man, placing The Mandalorian last? That's harsh. I thought it was exactly the direction the Sequels should have gone. I've never seen the Ewok movies. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Jun 18, 2021 2:04:23 GMT -6
If you're going to go that far might as well add in the Ewok movies (Caravan of Courage and The Battle for Endor). Also, seems like you'd include The Clone Wars and Resistance. All of which I'd rank higher than The Last Jedi. But man, placing The Mandalorian last? That's harsh. I thought it was exactly the direction the Sequels should have gone. I've never seen the Ewok movies. They weren't all that good. There were two made for TV movies about the Ewoks helping a human girl. As far as the prequels are concerned, I don't have too much of a problem with the movies, although I found the acting a bit wooden. I did get bored watching Phantom Menace, when Qui Gon was explaining Midichlorians. But the fight with Darth Maul was the best part of the movie. I didn't hate The Force Awakens, but I was disappointed that much of it was just a rehash of A New Hope. The Last Jedi, however, bored me to tears. I didn't even bother watching The Rise of Skywalker as a result. I liked Rogue One, but I haven't seen Solo. I only saw the pilot of The Mandalorian. What do you guys think of Star Wars Rebels? |
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Post by tkdco2 on Oct 12, 2021 15:18:23 GMT -6
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Post by thomden on Oct 12, 2021 18:04:36 GMT -6
It only takes a few very vocal outspoken people to stir stuff up. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2021 6:06:55 GMT -6
The prequels had excellent world building at least. Visually and lore wise, they added depth to the saga. The politics, the layout of Coruscant, the Senate and Jedi Temple, Kamino, the civil war, Palpatine and his machinations. These are standout elements for me. They could have been tied together into a more coherent and better written story, but they show George's unbounded creativity and passion for that universe.
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Post by thomden on Nov 27, 2022 3:41:49 GMT -6
I don't understand why The Last Jedi wasn't the Knights of Ren relentlessly hunting down Rey to bring her back alive to Kylo, and she takes them down one by one, each is stronger and more powerful than the previous, and she grows in strength with each one she kills not realizing it is the dark side taking her over. At the end we are left with a cliffhanger as Kylo congratulates her on becoming a Sith. That would've been a kick ass Star Wars movie.
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