Questioning Chirine ba Kal on the Original Game(s)

[Deleted]

Thank you all for your kind words! I'm sorry to be getting back to everyone so late; Third Daughter is getting married Sunday, and we had to pick up Fourth and Fifth Daughters after they flew in from Switzerland for the festivities.

Gentlemen, I do agree with you; I also much prefer the printed word, in a book that I can hold in my hands. We have looked very hard at both print-on-demand and a service like Lulu, and while I have no issues with using either of them, there are some problems with both due to my rather unique situation and status.

First and foremost, my wife is disabled and more or less an invalid. The last project that she was able to do for me - and for Phil and Tekumel, for that matter - was the slide show using Phil's own slides that she and Third Daughter did at Prof. Barker's widow's request for the memorial event that did for him. She is the Internet / computer literate one in the house, and I simply don't have the skills needed to get a print version of "To Serve The Petal Throne" by myself. And, while my health insurance pays for the bulk of her health care, the co-pays on her care take up pretty much all of our available resources - my miniatures purchases are funded through the generosity of The Missus, who manages a little saving account (like those Christmas funds one can use) for me and gives me an annual budget to spend on my hobby. Extraordinary (i. e., out of budget purchases) are paid for on an 'investment over time' (usually five to ten years) basis. I have to present a 'business case' for things like the 42" LCD screen I bought for the Gary-Con Tekumel room that the Tekumel Foundation prevented from happening. (Anyone need a nice big LCD TV? Buyer collects from our basement...) So, from a personal financial standpoint, simply setting up a web site and giving the book away is the most economical and efficient way for us to proceed. And, it should be remembered, that my goal in giving people the thing is to tell them about our adventures in Tekumel with it's creator - not to make money off the thing. I want to let people know that Tekumel can be played by anyone, not just an elite group.

Additionally, there are the publication policies of the Tekumel Foundation; I would suggest that people go to their website and have a look at them.

Bottom line, I can't receive any compensation at all for the book, under their policies, even on 'at cost' terms. Period. That's fine with me, as I'm more then happy to give it away for free to people; my lawyer agrees, so I'm afraid you'll probably have to print the thing out and put in a three-ring binder to get a hard copy....

Sorry - I don't make the rules; I just have to play by them...

[Deleted]

I won't try to dissuade you, even though they can not legally stop you from writing a memoir of your personal activities, as I understand what I have read, but I of course am not giving you legal advice. It is a terrible shame that the people running the foundation are dishonoring your friend in such a horrendous way.

My wife went on dialysis in Feb and was diagnosed with ovarian cancer two weeks ago and will be starting chemo soon since they don't think she could stand the surgery, so I am very in touch with not wanting any extra hassle or drama in your life. I just spend time on here and on my own forum to blow off a little steam, mostly peacefully.

I am sure that a number of people on here would be happy to help you format your book for the pdf.

[Deleted]

Jun 29, 2017 20:40:51 GMT -6 @theperilousdreamer said:

I won't try to dissuade you, even though they can not legally stop you from writing a memoir of your personal activities, as I understand what I have read, but I of course am not giving you legal advice. It is a terrible shame that the people running the foundation are dishonoring your friend in such a horrendous way.

My wife went on dialysis in Feb and was diagnosed with ovarian cancer two weeks ago and will be starting chemo soon since they don't think she could stand the surgery, so I am very in touch with not wanting any extra hassle or drama in your life. I just spend time on here and on my own forum to blow off a little steam, mostly peacefully.

I am sure that a number of people on here would be happy to help you format your book for the pdf.

They are convinced that they can, and litigation is expensive; keeping my lawyer on 'speed-dial' is a line item in our budget.

And they do baffle me, but then these are the people who told me that they killed a proposed Tekumel convention here in the Twin Cities in the middle 1990's because they were - quote- "afraid you'd show up with all tour cool miniatures and costumes and stuff and steal the limelight from us" as apparently - again quoting them - "because you do everything you do so well, you make us look bad." I refused to renew my contract with them after they floated their theory to me that Gygax and Arneson had stolen the idea for RPGs from Prof. Barker; I demurred, pointing out that all the historical evidence contradicts this, and was told that - quote - "If you were really loyal to us and Tekumel, you'd come up with the information to prove this!". I gave my thirty-day notice right after this statement was made to me.

Understood; we're in the same boat, here. The Missus was clear on her last mammogram last week, so we know what you're going through. All our best, from the both of us!!!

If somebody wanted to deal with this, more power to them. we'll have to see what transpires.

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2017 16:09:59 GMT -6 chirinebakal said:

They are convinced that they can, and litigation is expensive; keeping my lawyer on 'speed-dial' is a line item in our budget.

And they do baffle me, but then these are the people who told me that they killed a proposed Tekumel convention here in the Twin Cities in the middle 1990's because they were - quote- "afraid you'd show up with all your cool miniatures and costumes and stuff and steal the limelight from us" as apparently - again quoting them - "because you do everything you do so well, you make us look bad." I refused to renew my contract with them after they floated their theory to me that Gygax and Arneson had stolen the idea for RPGs from Prof. Barker; I demurred, pointing out that all the historical evidence contradicts this, and was told that - quote - "If you were really loyal to us and Tekumel, you'd come up with the information to prove this!". I gave my thirty-day notice right after this statement was made to me.

Understood; we're in the same boat, here. The Missus was clear on her last mammogram last week, so we know what you're going through. All our best, from the both of us!!!

If somebody wanted to deal with this, more power to them. we'll have to see what transpires.

Apparently you do stuff so well and since they realized that they were incapable of learning and that the possibility that your excellence might rub off was not possible for them they decided to cheat the fans who could have benefited. I am so sorry that Phil ever got mixed up with these yo-yo's.


Thank you and happy to hear that your Missus was clear and hope that continues.

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2017 18:32:53 GMT -6 @theperilousdreamer said:

Jun 30, 2017 16:09:59 GMT -6 chirinebakal said:

They are convinced that they can, and litigation is expensive; keeping my lawyer on 'speed-dial' is a line item in our budget.

And they do baffle me, but then these are the people who told me that they killed a proposed Tekumel convention here in the Twin Cities in the middle 1990's because they were - quote- "afraid you'd show up with all your cool miniatures and costumes and stuff and steal the limelight from us" as apparently - again quoting them - "because you do everything you do so well, you make us look bad." I refused to renew my contract with them after they floated their theory to me that Gygax and Arneson had stolen the idea for RPGs from Prof. Barker; I demurred, pointing out that all the historical evidence contradicts this, and was told that - quote - "If you were really loyal to us and Tekumel, you'd come up with the information to prove this!". I gave my thirty-day notice right after this statement was made to me.

Understood; we're in the same boat, here. The Missus was clear on her last mammogram last week, so we know what you're going through. All our best, from the both of us!!!

If somebody wanted to deal with this, more power to them. we'll have to see what transpires.

Apparently you do stuff so well and since they realized that they were incapable of learning and that the possibility that your excellence might rub off was not possible for them they decided to cheat the fans who could have benefited. I am so sorry that Phil ever got mixed up with these yo-yo's.


Thank you and happy to hear that your Missus was clear and hope that continues.

Agreed; I'm still baffled by them, after some thirty years, but then these are the people who ruined my relationship with Phil back in the late 1980s; the politics of fandom were, to them, far more important then Phil and his creation. They also can't keep their mouths shut, either.

As for my ability to do things well, I can only point to the photos up on my Photobucket page and the videos on my You Tube channel, and let people make their own decision about that.

Thank you! I'll pass that along to her.

[foxroe]

Jul 1, 2017 5:58:43 GMT -6 chirinebakal said:

I'm still baffled by them, after some thirty years, but then these are the people who ruined my relationship with Phil back in the late 1980s...

Wow. The depths some folks will sink to - which is crazy considering that Tekumel is a niche within a niche within a niche in our hobby... there's little if any money in it (I'm assuming greed is the primary impetus in this situation). Would you care to elaborate (or vent ) on this? I would understand if you don't want to of course. I know such things can be a very sore subject.

On a lighter note, I have a more positive question for you Uncle*: What's your favorite wargame, and why?

*(I hope you don't mind the "clan-speak"; sometimes I can't help but be a geek... not that I'll be reciting Shakespeare in its original Klingon or anything.)

[greentongue]

Jul 3, 2017 1:12:54 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Would you care to elaborate (or vent ) on this? I would understand if you don't want to of course. I know such things can be a very sore subject.

I believe that he has gone into some of the sordid details on the other site (at the top of this thread).
If once was enough for him, you may want to look there.
=

[Deleted]

Jul 3, 2017 1:12:54 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Jul 1, 2017 5:58:43 GMT -6 chirinebakal said:

I'm still baffled by them, after some thirty years, but then these are the people who ruined my relationship with Phil back in the late 1980s...

Wow. The depths some folks will sink to - which is crazy considering that Tekumel is a niche within a niche within a niche in our hobby... there's little if any money in it (I'm assuming greed is the primary impetus in this situation). Would you care to elaborate (or vent ) on this? I would understand if you don't want to of course. I know such things can be a very sore subject.

On a lighter note, I have a more positive question for you Uncle*: What's your favorite wargame, and why?

*(I hope you don't mind the "clan-speak"; sometimes I can't help but be a geek... not that I'll be reciting Shakespeare in its original Klingon or anything.)

It's not about greed; it's all about insecurity and ego issues that some people have had with me since my 25th birthday, when Phil described me as - quote - "The son I never had." I've had all manner of grief ever since. And no, I would prefer not to; all it does is get my blood pressure up, and we know where that lead to a few years ago, As Greentongue says, you can read all about it in Part I of the Giant Thread.

'Uncle Chirine' has been my nickname in local fannish circles for decades, so do feel free to use it.

I don't think I have any 'favorite wargames'; I still play "Chainmail" and "Complete Brigadier", as well as my own little effort for Tekumel ("Qadardalikoi"). I fool around with "Naumachae" (spelling?) and "Bireme and Galley" when I'm in a nautical mood. I really don't play sets of rules; I play settings, and find a set of rule that feels right for the setting. Doing Barsoom, at the moment, as well as XVIII Dynasty Egypt, and doing some experimentation with various rules sets that have been suggested to be by people.

And I will freely admit that the kind of rules that I like are not the kind of thing that people today like. Different play styles for different people, of course.

[Deleted]

Jul 3, 2017 15:54:21 GMT -6 greentongue said:

Jul 3, 2017 1:12:54 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Would you care to elaborate (or vent ) on this? I would understand if you don't want to of course. I know such things can be a very sore subject.

I believe that he has gone into some of the sordid details on the other site (at the top of this thread).
If once was enough for him, you may want to look there.
=

Agreed, and thank you for this. It was bad enough having to live through it, and having now been interviewed a few times by people about it hasn't made it any more fun the second, third, and fourth times around. I did discuss it in the 'Questioning' thread because I promised, as I have done here, to answer all questions as honestly and as accurately as I can; I may not like the questions, and you folks may not like the answers, so I'll try to indicate the 'hot button' issues' when they come up.

[MormonYoYoMan]

As the painful questions are, by nature, rather painful, let me pose you a different question:

If a chicken and a half could lay an egg and a half every 90 minutes while traveling on an eastbound train from Myrtle Beach at a speed matching that of an unladen African Hooey Hound, how many ice cubes would fill a doghouse?

[foxroe]

Jul 3, 2017 17:56:26 GMT -6 MormonYoYoMan said:

As the painful questions are, by nature, rather painful, let me pose you a different question:

If a chicken and a half could lay an egg and a half every 90 minutes while traveling on an eastbound train from Myrtle Beach at a speed matching that of an unladen African Hooey Hound, how many ice cubes would fill a doghouse?

That's easy! Purple! 'Cause aliens don't wear hats!

chirinebakal - My apologies for touching on the subject. I've read the other thread and I am aware of the horror stories. I was just shocked to hear that someone would deliberately attempt to undermine the relationship you shared with the Professor. It wasn't my place to ask, so again, I am sorry.

[Deleted]

Jul 3, 2017 17:56:26 GMT -6 MormonYoYoMan said:

As the painful questions are, by nature, rather painful, let me pose you a different question:

If a chicken and a half could lay an egg and a half every 90 minutes while traveling on an eastbound train from Myrtle Beach at a speed matching that of an unladen African Hooey Hound, how many ice cubes would fill a doghouse?

This is a very simple problem in quantum mechanics, and was extensively dealt with in Schrodinger's paper on the subject. As he pointed out in the footnotes, one must provide the breed of the dog inhabiting the dog house in order for the answer to have relevance to the singular point in space-time when the ice cubes are in existence.

Metric or Imperial ice cubes, by the way?

[Deleted]

Jul 3, 2017 18:41:27 GMT -6 foxroe said:

chirinebakal - My apologies for touching on the subject. I've read the other thread and I am aware of the horror stories. I was just shocked to hear that someone would deliberately attempt to undermine the relationship you shared with the Professor. It wasn't my place to ask, so again, I am sorry.

No problem; no need to apologize.

I've tried to downplay and minimize the local in-fighting and fannish politics that have plagued Tekumel and Tekumel publishing here in the Twin Cities since the late 1970s - yes, this crap got started that early - as it does nothing for either Tekumel or Phil. I've had to live with this for literally decades; we used to have to waste a good part of game sessions with in the middle to late 1980s defending what we were doing as his publishers, and we all pretty much gave up as while Tekumel is very, very wonderful the utter crap we were having to take personally was simply too much. As my back pocket was paying for most of the publishing efforts - AGI didn't do a lot of support for the product line when they had it - it was a lot of 'biting the hand that feeds you' on their part. They wanted to be in control, as they could do a much better job then we could; now, they are in control, and finding it just a little more difficult then they had expected. Their issues are their issues; I did not renew my contract with them in 2012, and I have nothing to do with them - they are, if I may be blunt, on the far edges of gaming and likely to stay there due to their very limited viewpoints and horizons. 

Back in 1976, I promised Phil that I would be his archivist, and tell people about his amazing creation. I've done that for some forty years now, and I'll still tell people about the times we had with an astonishing man and his equally astonishing creation. If you want to come along for the ride, I'll be happy to be your local guide. If Tekumel doesn't interest you, I have no problem with that; if you can take away anything from my ramblings to use in your games, please feel free to do so and have fun!

[MormonYoYoMan]

To respond to several posts at once, in the least serious manner:

Imperial. As in "Imperial Stormtroopers and Marguerite."

Some aliens do wear hats, because footballs don't have feathers.

Even before RPGs, small fish in small ponds thought they were bigger.

[18 Spears]

former tsr srtist Jeff DEe is active in tekumel
ahve you tried workin with him for publishing your works

[Deleted]

Jul 4, 2017 8:31:00 GMT -6 MormonYoYoMan said:

To respond to several posts at once, in the least serious manner:

Imperial. As in "Imperial Stormtroopers and Marguerite."

Some aliens do wear hats, because footballs don't have feathers.

Even before RPGs, small fish in small ponds thought they were bigger.

That all made sense, should I be worried?

[MormonYoYoMan]

Jul 4, 2017 11:55:50 GMT -6 @theperilousdreamer said:

That all made sense, should I be worried?

Always and forever.

[Deleted]

Jul 4, 2017 8:31:00 GMT -6 MormonYoYoMan said:

To respond to several posts at once, in the least serious manner:

Imperial. As in "Imperial Stormtroopers and Marguerite."

Some aliens do wear hats, because footballs don't have feathers.

Even before RPGs, small fish in small ponds thought they were bigger.

Agreed; there are some minnows who want to be sharks.

[MormonYoYoMan]

Minnows who think they are sharks can only nibble. They hunger for attention and "the praise of (hu)men." Only if we deign to notice their existence, can we be nibbled to death by ducks.

When better metaphors are mixed, it'll be Grandpa Chet who mixes them.

[Deleted]

Jul 4, 2017 9:11:07 GMT -6 18 Spears said:

former tsr srtist Jeff DEe is active in tekumel
ahve you tried workin with him for publishing your works

We have helped him in the past, when his server crashed and they lost their wonderful sets of Tekumel 'cardboard miniatures'. We were able to replace the files for them, from our archives.

Currently, his company - Uni Games - is an Officially Licensed And Approved Producer of Tekumel products, and I don't want to cause them any problems; the Foundation has told at least one other Officially Licensed And Approved Producer that if they talk to me or work with me, they will loose their license to produce Tekumel materials. Another company was told (at Gary Con, last year) that they would only get a license if they - quote - "silence Chirine" by getting me under exclusive contract so that they could edit and redact my posts on my blog and my posts on a forum like this one. (I receive the most amazing and indiscreet e-mails. Which I save, of course.) Effectively, the TF has cut off their own licensees from what I've been told - by the TF itself, no less! - is the very best archive and storehouse of Tekumel materials and information in existence. (The TF called me - quote - "the greatest living authority on Tekumel", back when I was working for them.)

I happen to like and respect Jeff and Amanda, and I think they produce some very good products for Tekumel - heck, I get them and use them myself!. I don't want to get them involved in the TF's feud with me and my family. The people who run the TF have hurt enough people over the years; we've lost some very good - some have said truly great - people due to them and their antics, and we don't need to lose any more. Tekumel is in bad enough shape already, largely thanks to their doings in the 1990s.

[Deleted]

Jul 4, 2017 18:07:18 GMT -6 MormonYoYoMan said:

Minnows who think they are sharks can only nibble. They hunger for attention and "the praise of (hu)men." Only if we deign to notice their existence, can we be nibbled to death by ducks.

When better metaphors are mixed, it'll be Grandpa Chet who mixes them.

Agreed; I like my metaphors over ice and with those little paper parasols in on the rim of the glass.

(In the interests of transparency, no, I am not the Jeff Berry who wrote the book on Tiki drinks. Great book, though!)

[MormonYoYoMan]

Jul 4, 2017 18:18:40 GMT -6 chirinebakal said:

Jul 4, 2017 18:07:18 GMT -6 MormonYoYoMan said:

Minnows who think they are sharks can only nibble. They hunger for attention and "the praise of (hu)men." Only if we deign to notice their existence, can we be nibbled to death by ducks.

When better metaphors are mixed, it'll be Grandpa Chet who mixes them.

Agreed; I like my metaphors over ice and with those little paper parasols in on the rim of the glass.

(In the interests of transparency, no, I am not the Jeff Berry who wrote the book on Tiki drinks. Great book, though!)

Very few people are the Jeff Berry who wrote the book on Tiki drinks. Me, I'm the Franken Berry who wrote the book on 20 bond paper.

I never metaphor I didn't like.

[foxroe]

I'm a bit of an archery nut, so forgive these specialty-oriented questions. Did Phil ever describe (or have in mind) what the bows were like in the Five Empires? I picture Tsolyani bows to be very ornate, something like the bows produced by the Ottoman Empire, but that's just me. Is Chlen hide considered "springy" enough to make decent bows, or was there a particular wood species or creature/animal horn native to Tekumel that was preferred?

EDIT: Actually, digging through the Sourcebook, it looks like Seresh wood is the preferred bow wood; however, my other inquiries still stand (decoration, shape, type of horn used in composites, is chlen hide viable, etc.)

[Deleted]

Jul 6, 2017 9:57:34 GMT -6 foxroe said:

I'm a bit of an archery nut, so forgive these specialty-oriented questions. Did Phil ever describe (or have in mind) what the bows were like in the Five Empires? I picture Tsolyani bows to be very ornate, something like the bows produced by the Ottoman Empire, but that's just me. Is Chlen hide considered "springy" enough to make decent bows, or was there a particular wood species or creature/animal horn native to Tekumel that was preferred?

EDIT: Actually, digging through the Sourcebook, it looks like Seresh wood is the preferred bow wood; however, my other inquiries still stand (decoration, shape, type of horn used in composites, is chlen hide viable, etc.)

Yes, Phil did have this in mind and was very explicit about this. May I suggest reading the book he used as his guide to this subject?

www.amazon.com/Book-Crossbow-Additional-Catapults-Military/dp/0486287203

This book has all sorts of useful information, both about crossbows and bows, as well as about siege engines. Phil used the experimental data that the good Baronet generated for his missile weapons in his world. Phil was also right up front that his Tekumelyani archers had weapons that were as richly decorated and embellished as anything the Ottomans or Mughals had used, and he drew them that way. Phil highly commended this book, and I am the proud owner of a facsimile copy of the original edition.

Chlen hide is not used for bows, at least not that we saw, but does see use as the fittings and embellishments. (Bow cases, too.)  Too brittle, Phil said. Specific horns are used by various bowyers, but he didn't go into detail on that with us.

As an aside, one gamer told me that my miniatures rules were very badly written because the ranges and rates of fire I gave for the longbow were in excess of the stock-and-standard D&D longbow, which is based on the stock-and-standard wargamer's medieval English / Welsh longbow. I pointed out that the Tekumelyani longbow, specifically the longbow used by the famous Mu'uglavyani legion of archers, is a composite longbow, and taken specifically from the composite longbows seen and tested by Sir Ralph in Istanbul in the archery yard of the Topkapi Palace armory. Phil used Sir Ralph's rates of fire and ranges, and so did I. I suggested that the critic might want to look at the book, but I never did hear from him again.

Does this help, at all?

[Deleted]

Beautiful, just beautiful!

[Deleted]

It's definitely a "Must Read." The Lake Geneva Public Library had a copy and I read it in 1971 or 1972.

[geoffrey]

Jun 29, 2017 17:04:14 GMT -6 chirinebakal said:

I'm afraid you'll probably have to print the thing out and put in a three-ring binder to get a hard copy....

Fortunately, it's not quite as bad as all that.

If someone could put the book into PDF format, we'd be halfway there. The PDF would need only two requirements: All the pages would have to be the same size, and all the fonts would have to be embedded.

That done, anyone could use lulu to print his own bound copy of the book. A man could get, for example, an 8.5" by 11" perfect bound paperback book with 100 pages for a measly $2.75 (and that's without any of lulu's frequent discounts). Try printing-out 100 pages at your local library for such a paltry sum. (It would cost $10 at my local library, and then there's the cost of the 3-ring binder...)

[foxroe]

Excellent! Thank you, chirinebakal! I'll have to try and read that at some point.

[Deleted]

Jul 7, 2017 9:11:14 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Jun 29, 2017 17:04:14 GMT -6 chirinebakal said:

I'm afraid you'll probably have to print the thing out and put in a three-ring binder to get a hard copy....

Fortunately, it's not quite as bad as all that.

If someone could put the book into PDF format, we'd be halfway there. The PDF would need only two requirements: All the pages would have to be the same size, and all the fonts would have to be embedded.

That done, anyone could use lulu to print his own bound copy of the book. A man could get, for example, an 8.5" by 11" perfect bound paperback book with 100 pages for a measly $2.75 (and that's without any of lulu's frequent discounts). Try printing-out 100 pages at your local library for such a paltry sum. (It would cost $10 at my local library, and then there's the cost of the 3-ring binder...)

This all makes sense. I'm guessing that we'll upload the thing as a PDF, so most of your specs will be met. There are going to be six volumes, otherwise you'd have a great doorstop...

[geoffrey]

Awesome. Please be sure to embed all the fonts in the PDFs, otherwise lulu can't print them. Embedding fonts is as easy as...doing nothing. On my Open Office program, when I turn a document into a PDF, the little box for "embed fonts" is automatically checked. I'd have to go out of my way to uncheck it. "Let's see. I'm NOT going to embed those fonts because... because... Oh, just to be ornery. There's really no other reason!"

Alas, I have some beautiful and interesting PDFs sitting on my computer, basically unread because of their unembedded fonts. Reading a whole book on the computer would burn my eyes out, and I would not even consider paying $25 to print-out a 250-page PDF, then 3-hole punch all of that, and then purchase a 3-ring binder all so as to have a cruddy $30 book-in-a-binder on my shelf, when I could have had a nicely printed book from lulu for $5.15 (or less).

Sorry if I'm coming off as angry. None of that is directed at you or anyone else here! I simply do not understand others' decisions to put unembedded fonts into their PDFs, making them essentially unusable for me.