Questioning Chirine ba Kal on the Original Game(s)

[greentongue]

For those that missed it and may be interested, there is an extensive discussion on the early days of gaming on Tekumel with The Professor.

www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?32577-Questioning-chirine-ba-kal

(by extensive I mean over 5,000 posts.)
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[foxroe]

Sweet!

Edit: Holy Moly, 587 pages of posts... this is going to take a while!

[foxroe]

I'm only partially through the thread - great stuff in there. It's a shame Chirine no longer posts, but I can respect his reasons.

[greentongue]

His book should be amazing.
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[aldarron]

He does post. Just not there. Actually, I was surprised to learn he was ever on rpgnet - thanks for that GT. If you have a question for him, try the Blackmoor forum.

[foxroe]

Apr 7, 2017 8:19:12 GMT -6 aldarron said:

He does post. Just not there. Actually, I was surprised to learn he was ever on rpgnet - thanks for that GT. If you have a question for him, try the Blackmoor forum.

Thanks aldarron, that's good to know. I have no questions for Chirine (yet), I just selfishly enjoy the stories of yore.

[Finarvyn]

Apr 6, 2017 21:31:33 GMT -6 foxroe said:

I'm only partially through the thread - great stuff in there. It's a shame Chirine no longer posts, but I can respect his reasons.

You know, if you find any real gems in that thread you could always quote them in posts here in this thread. It would save me the time of reading through 500 pages of posts at theRPGsite.

[foxroe]

Apr 8, 2017 8:34:33 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Apr 6, 2017 21:31:33 GMT -6 foxroe said:

I'm only partially through the thread - great stuff in there. It's a shame Chirine no longer posts, but I can respect his reasons.

You know, if you find any real gems in that thread you could always quote them in posts here in this thread. It would save me the time of reading through 500 pages of posts at theRPGsite.

I'd end up quoting the whole thread! I'm up to page 30 now, but I suppose I can go back and quote a few things like the excerpt from Chirine's book, Gronan's wedding, and the real origin of the Nlyss...

[foxroe]

Lot's of interesting details about the Jakallan Underworld - check out the picture of Gronan and Chirine at the bottom of this page. It's the Professor's 22"x36" map of the first level beneath Jakalla, and it looks gorgeous.

[foxroe]

Fascinating:

Quote Originally Posted by greentongue :

In the EPT rules there is a section on intelligent weapons.
(I gather this was an Arneson innovation that was included.)
How frequent were these found and what impact did they have?

Quote originally posted by Chirine:

Yeah, this was a section that Phil tossed in for Dave; Gary got some pet sections, too.

They were very, very, very rare in Phil's campaign. We got exactly one, in over a decade of gaming. It was the intelligent sword that Vrisa got, before we marched off to the Northwest Frontier; we never did figure out if the d**n thing was an AI or an imprisoned demon. The former was favored as a theory, but nobody wanted to get close to the thing to find out. It bonded with her, she bonded with it, and we all avoided it like the plague, as it did have a mind of it's own. It was made of the ceramet material of the ancients, and had a energy field as an edge; it would cut through just about anything, and with Kathy's close-to-max S&G stats it made her a real threat to anything that annoyed us. Saved my bacon a few times, too.

[foxroe]

The linked thread needs to be archived - just like the Blue Room.

EDIT: I'm going for it. 25% 88% complete...

EDIT: Well, I finished "archiving"... but I see that the thread is still active (as of yesterday), so I guess I'll just have to keep an eye on it and keep archiving! hopefully Chirine doesn't mind. The stuff he and Gronan (and others) talk about is simply fantastic and well worth immortalizing - can't wait to read the book(s). And great questions, greentongue!

[greentongue]

"archived - just like the Blue Room"
Good Job!
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[foxroe]

More fascinating tid-bits:

chirine ba kal said:

Phil kept his campaign very organized - he used Tony Bath's book on how to run a campaign. He did lots and lots of little maps and notes, which I always made copies of so we had them for the archives. Read the Bath book for the details; it's still in print.

Phil did everyone on 3x5 index cards. We updated our cards regularly over the years, and Phil would update the NPCs. The cards were kept in 'regional' boxes, and all the dividers were for locations; as people moved around, so did their cards so Phil knew instantly knew who was who in any particular location. Very easy to run and maintain, and very handy.

I made a copy of all 1,800 cards in 1987, and I also have a copy of the 1992 computerized version. They provide a fascinating look into the campaign. I also have a copy of Dave Arneson's 'sub-routine' for the meta-game, for merchant captains and their ships - it provides for cargo, as well.

and in response to someone wishing Dave's subroutine was available, as he had no desire to recreate such a thing:

chirine ba kal said:

And you don't have to, either. This may go back to a conversation I had with Phil in the middle 1980s, when he was asking me why Gronan and I were wasting our time playing with trains. He wanted to know what we saw in it; after you put the track down on the floor, and ran the train around the circle a few times, what was left? I told him about what we call 'operations', where we simulated the operations of a real railroad on our miniature version. I told him that it was a lot like what we did when we played with our little lead soldiers - we were simulating warfare with them just as we were simulating the transport business with our models. Phil was astonished - he had no idea, the last time he'd run a toy train was back in the Lionel days.

One of the most popular operating simulation systems - the set of rules, if you will - is called the 'card order' or 'waybill' system. Here's a link to the book that I first read about it in (I hope!); you can also do a Google search to get lots of references to it:

books.google.com/books?id=or...system&f=false

The basic premise of the system is that every freight car on the railroad is represented by a card; every possible cargo that the industries on the railroad ships via rail is also represented by a card. At the beginning of the simulation session - the game, if you will - the cargo cards are either at the industries, waiting to be picked up, or on the cars already loaded from the previous session. (You can see where this is going, I'm sure!) The train is sent out, with loads and empties, and drops off and picks up the various cargos. (There's lots more on this in the book, of course.) I used to use paper clips and such in my early days, but there is now some very good computer software that does all of this.

What Dave did was substitute ships and their captains for the freight cars, and create all the various cargos that one would find all along the coasts of the Five Empires. A ship would arrive in Jakalla from Bey Sy, unload the cargo it was delivering, and then the ship would be free to load another cargo; the ships were all given with what they could carry, and so it was very easy to match everything up. The cargoes also indicated how long the voyage might take, so the time element was also factored in to the system. So, players in Jakalla can go down to the waterfront, and be told by the GM that there are ships going to where ever, and with whatever cargo aboard.

Adventures ensue.

It's brilliant. The system pretty much runs itself once you get it going, and it runs alongside Phil's larger meta-game that uses Tony Bath's book. It would work in any setting, and really provide a lot of stuff for players to get involved with.

and further:

chirine ba kal said:

Phil used 3 x 5 index cards, in the stock five colors that you can get in packs. The color code was:

White: Hnalla, Hru'u, and their cohorts;
Blue: Thumis, Ksarul, and their cohorts;
Green: Avanthe, Dlamelish, and their cohorts;
Red: Karakan, Vimuhla, and their cohorts
Yellow: Belkhanu, Sarku, and their cohorts.

Non-Twenty deities were approximated.

On the obverse of the card, the stats were listed in a column on the left, under the name and clan of the person; skills and spells were listed on the right. The reverse of the card had all the possessions and such, normally on the left; any family or relations were on the right.

It's a very simple and easy to use system; if one lives in Jakalla, and then gets sent to Bey Sy, one's card moves from the Jakalla section to the Bey Sy section, making it very east for the GM to find people as needed in game sessions. As per Tony Bath's book, once a month dice are rolled or cards cut, and the table consulted to see who's moving around - usually, people don't get transferred or moved unless they're being promoted or something, and the tables in the book account for all that. It's a very easy system to use, and a lot of fun - read Tony's book to see what I mean...

Oh, and the book chirine is referring to (this book includes the actual "Setting Up a Wargames Campaign" book referenced):

www.lulu.com/shop/society-of-ancients-and-tony-bath-and-john-curry/tony-baths-ancient-wargaming/paperback/product-15463540.html

[greentongue]

Due to extensive page count, Part II was started.

www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36774-Questioning-chirine-ba-kal-part-II/page2
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[foxroe]

Woo hoo!

[Deleted]

Apr 23, 2017 13:00:40 GMT -6 greentongue said:

Due to extensive page count, Part II was started.

www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36774-Questioning-chirine-ba-kal-part-II/page2
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I don't know if it's at all useful, but I've reregistered an account here. I'll set it up, if I can, to e-mails me if you have a question for me. Thanks!

[geoffrey]

Apr 9, 2017 22:49:46 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Fascinating:

Quote Originally Posted by greentongue :

In the EPT rules there is a section on intelligent weapons.
(I gather this was an Arneson innovation that was included.)
How frequent were these found and what impact did they have?

Quote originally posted by Chirine:

Yeah, this was a section that Phil tossed in for Dave; Gary got some pet sections, too.

They were very, very, very rare in Phil's campaign. We got exactly one, in over a decade of gaming. It was the intelligent sword that Vrisa got, before we marched off to the Northwest Frontier; we never did figure out if the d**n thing was an AI or an imprisoned demon. The former was favored as a theory, but nobody wanted to get close to the thing to find out. It bonded with her, she bonded with it, and we all avoided it like the plague, as it did have a mind of it's own. It was made of the ceramet material of the ancients, and had a energy field as an edge; it would cut through just about anything, and with Kathy's close-to-max S&G stats it made her a real threat to anything that annoyed us. Saved my bacon a few times, too.

I suspected as much. Intelligent weapons always felt out of place to me in Tekumel.

[geoffrey]

Apr 9, 2017 21:25:12 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Lot's of interesting details about the Jakallan Underworld - check out the picture of Gronan and Chirine at the bottom of this page. It's the Professor's 22"x36" map of the first level beneath Jakalla, and it looks gorgeous.

[foxroe]

May 30, 2017 21:46:50 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I suspected as much. Intelligent weapons always felt out of place to me in Tekumel.

I agree, but I really like the exceptional rarity (in the Professor's game) and that it could be an AI - that feels like Tekumel (to me at least).

[Red Baron]

Holy cow thanks for the link

Here's the picture in question from that thread 

Attachments:

[geoffrey]

May 30, 2017 22:08:14 GMT -6 foxroe said:

May 30, 2017 21:46:50 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I suspected as much. Intelligent weapons always felt out of place to me in Tekumel.

I agree, but I really like the exceptional rarity (in the Professor's game) and that it could be an AI - that feels like Tekumel (to me at least).

Definitely!

[Deleted]

Apr 10, 2017 22:35:06 GMT -6 foxroe said:

The linked thread needs to be archived - just like the Blue Room.

EDIT: I'm going for it. 25% 88% complete...

EDIT: Well, I finished "archiving"... but I see that the thread is still active (as of yesterday), so I guess I'll just have to keep an eye on it and keep archiving! hopefully Chirine doesn't mind. The stuff he and Gronan (and others) talk about is simply fantastic and well worth immortalizing - can't wait to read the book(s). And great questions, greentongue !

Nobody asked me. Now, I don't mind, myself, but if you want a more direct way to talk to me I did restart my account here. At this point, I only have accounts on Havard's Blackmoor forum, the RPGSite, and here. These are all RPG forums; I didn't think anyone would be interested in my posts on miniatures sites like LAF or RP.

I would like to get a copy of the archive, though. My e-mail is [e-mail] ; thanks!

[Red Baron]

How much of that map did you end up exploring? Was that the entirety of the first level?

[Deleted]

Jun 3, 2017 10:29:35 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

How much of that map did you end up exploring? Was that the entirety of the first level?

Most of it; we spent most of our time in the major sections, like the Temple of Vimuhla, and not much in the intermediate connecting corridors. I'd say over 80%, over two years of game sessions.

Yes; it's what Phil drew, and it's a physically big map as you can see from the photos. Technically, the 'main' areas are a bit more widely separated then are show on the map, but Phil was right up front about having compressed things to get it all to fit on the one 17" x 22" sheet. There are linking corridors, out in 'no man's land', but otherwise it's the same as he drew it.

[foxroe]

Jun 3, 2017 9:35:51 GMT -6 chirinebakal said:

Apr 10, 2017 22:35:06 GMT -6 foxroe said:

The linked thread needs to be archived - just like the Blue Room.

EDIT: I'm going for it. 25% 88% complete...

EDIT: Well, I finished "archiving"... but I see that the thread is still active (as of yesterday), so I guess I'll just have to keep an eye on it and keep archiving! hopefully Chirine doesn't mind. The stuff he and Gronan (and others) talk about is simply fantastic and well worth immortalizing - can't wait to read the book(s). And great questions, greentongue !

Nobody asked me. Now, I don't mind, myself, but if you want a more direct way to talk to me I did restart my account here. At this point, I only have accounts on Havard's Blackmoor forum, the RPGSite, and here. These are all RPG forums; I didn't think anyone would be interested in my posts on miniatures sites like LAF or RP.

I would like to get a copy of the archive, though. My e-mail is [e-mail] ; thanks!

Apologies; it was not my intention to pirate your thread. It's a rich and fascinating trove (to me at least), and I was preserving it for future reading. I shall pay my shamtla in full: (A rather large) email sent.

And welcome back, Chirine!

EDIT: Hmmmm... the email bounced (too big). I'll have to split it up.

[Deleted]

Jun 4, 2017 3:49:07 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Apologies; it was not my intention to pirate your thread. It's a rich and fascinating trove (to me at least), and I was preserving it for future reading. I shall pay my shamtla in full: (A rather large) email sent.

And welcome back, Chirine!

EDIT: Hmmmm... the email bounced (too big). I'll have to split it up.

No problem on my end. I'm still surprised that it went to 600 pages, and that the Part II thread is still cooking along. As I've said, the threads will continue as long as people want to ask me questions; these are not my threads, they are yours.

Got your e-mails; the files opened just fine, and thank you. I am thinking of printing the pages off and binding them up. I suppose I could also do a version with an index, to make it easier to find stuff in the long saga. Something to contemplate, I guess.

[Deleted]

Photos up on my blog from the various game sessions and yesterday's event - the latter are boring, however.

[foxroe]

Jun 18, 2017 18:49:19 GMT -6 chirinebakal said:

Photos up on my blog from the various game sessions and yesterday's event - the latter are boring, however.

Very nice! I would have enjoyed the Lord Meren game very much (I'm part way through the second book - CSI:New Kingdom is quite fun), but I likely would have bribed the other players into playing a game in Tekumel.

I like your "loosy-goosy" table setup for FRPG Day, BTW. It seems so obvious to me now, but it never occurred to me to re-purpose a whiteboard as a playing surface. Genius!

[Deleted]

Thank you for your kind words!

The "Lord Meren" adventure went quite well, with the players 'getting' Ancient Egypt very quickly and really working hard to get all the clues put together. I really enjoyed running this, especially as I had four very engaged young people playing.

I did fell sorry for the gent who wanted to play in Tekumel, but we'd set the parameters for the 'open table' and we had to stick to them. I did refer him to the FATE game later on in the day, though.

The 2'x4' dry-erase is actually a sheet of masonite with a dry-erase surface that I for at Home Depot for a whopping $1.50 in their 'seconds and mis-cut lumber' section. Apparently, you can get full 4' x 8' sheets of the stuff, an so one doesn't have to dismember a white board for this. I used this as I find it more flexible to use then a vinyl battle mat with a grid - people seem to have 'expectations' when they see the grid, which is I think an artifact of D&D 4E. Having a blank surface on the table top makes it easy for both me and the players to do quick diagrams. If I need a grid, I have a commercial office product which is a roll of white plastic cling film printed with a graph-paper sort of grid; this film adheres by static electricity to any smooth surface, and it's dry-erase as well - very, very handy!

I learned how to run RPGs from Dave Arneson, and I still do it his way; the technology of gaming has changed - for the better, I think! - but it's still gaming back in Ye Olden Dayes. People seem to like it, at least in my experience.

[Deleted]

From the other thread;

Jun 18, 2017 18:46:16 GMT -6 chirinebakal said:

Jun 18, 2017 15:44:37 GMT -6 peterlind said:

> So, I'll basically start them off in a RPG where only the core resolution mechanic is set. Everything else, classes, races, ability scores, spells, monsters, etc. will derive from their request. <

This is a great idea. Does anyone have any anecdotes for how Blackmoor characters were created before the release of OD&D? If so, how were they created?

Yes, I do, but all your brains would explode if I told you.

All of you good folks would have had conniption fits watching my games yesterday at the Free RPG Day event at the FLGS, where I was running my games just like I learned from Dave, all those years ago (with a big helping from Gary and Phil along the way, of course) at Coffman Union.

Do carry on, as Gronan would say; I'm laughing myself silly watching this thread.

Please expand on this. I would very much like to hear how character creation was done in Blackmoor.