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Post by jakdethe on May 5, 2014 3:07:20 GMT -6
I was just talking to some guys about another hobby of mine (airsoft), and unless you're willing to spend $300+ you're wasting your time, and get this: You're a detriment to the hobby!
It really bugged me, and I figured out why. How much does cost to start playing (current edition) "Dungeons & Dragons"? $120+. Pathfinder is $90+ last time checked (brand new I know). The Reprints were something in the $100 range for AD&D (more for 2E), and what was it, $150 ($180 on amazon just now!) for the OD&D reprint.
I just don't get it. Mainstream society is really trying to make it to where if you're poor, your options are stay at home and watch TV. Think about it, the only cheap thing I can think of is Netflix for $10 a month.
Sorry, just had to vent. I don't know if anyone else here shares my concerns and opinions. Honestly I kind of wish the OSR would stay away from this trend (with their premium, limited run, leather bound copies). I remember I fell in love with old school D&D because of free PDF's and $20 print on demand complete games.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 5, 2014 4:26:40 GMT -6
The D&D Next game line is supposed to launch soon, with a cheap introductory boxed set. When 3E and 4E came out, they were with cheap introductory boxed sets. If an "intro" set doesn't count, back in the day one could play B/X D&D by buying two cheap boxed sets that would take you all the way through 14th level, which isn't just introductory any more.
I think there are a lot of games with cheap buy-in costs. They may not be hardback with all the bells-and-whistles, but decent enough games. Castles & Crusades can be played with two not-so-expensive hardbacks.
But your point is well taken. Buying a product line for most games is pretty expensive nowadays.
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 5, 2014 4:43:12 GMT -6
I thought most of the so called "retro clones" still had free PDFs?
I can say with some certainty that at least one of them does--and I'm sure there're others too.
Hard back books are nice but they're just not cheap to produce, especially not when you're printing just a few hundred. They need to have a real price tag to be viable at all. But nobody's saying you have to buy them to participate. You don't.
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Post by cadriel on May 5, 2014 4:43:25 GMT -6
Basic Fantasy RPG can be had from Amazon.com for $4.16 (with free shipping). A decent starter adventure, The Chaotic Caves, is $2.81. A wilderness adventure, JN2 Monkey Isle, is $2.77. So that's $9.74 with free shipping for two adventures and a complete rulebook - it's like the Basic and Expert boxed sets, except all you need is dice. So there is a cheap and pretty good old-school way into the hobby, and to be honest I think we as gamers should promote it more. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2014 5:51:48 GMT -6
The D&D Next game line is supposed to launch soon, with a cheap introductory boxed set. If the intro boxed sets are neutered, like those of FFG's new Star Wars game, then they actually increase the cost-of-entry for a game, rather than reduce it. |
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Post by scottenkainen on May 5, 2014 7:25:14 GMT -6
>If the intro boxed sets are neutered, like those of FFG's new Star Wars game
For those of us who haven't seen these rules, can you explain what you mean by "neutered"? Is the basic game just unplayable?
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
P.S. Hideouts & Hoodlums is another retro-clone with two free rulebooks, and the rest are bargains...
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Post by coffee on May 5, 2014 8:05:24 GMT -6
There are plenty of free rules about -- starting with what's already on your shelf. New rules can be fun, but we don't really need them. (The longest running face-to-face game I'm in right now is AD&D; this group has been playing for over 4 years.)
(And it's not just RPGs, either. Wargames these days -- you need the core rulebook, the army book for your specific army, other supplementary rules, the official dice and the official measuring devices (and this is becoming true for historical games, not just Games Workshop products....) I have a copy of Joe Morschauser's 1962 book "How to Play War Games in Miniature", some old figures, some felt for terrain and a bunch of ingenuity. I think I'll be fine.)
I prefer the do-it-yourself roots of the hobby. Because to me, it's always been a hobby. Corporations can come and go all they want; I still have games to play and the ability to make my own fun.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2014 8:05:56 GMT -6
For those of us who haven't seen these rules, can you explain what you mean by "neutered"? Is the basic game just unplayable? That's probably a poor choice of words on my part but the Beginner boxed sets for this game doesn't have character creation rules, monsters or equipment lists. They don't even have the rules for spending XP (how you improve your character in-game) so once you play the supplied adventure you have no choice but to buy to rules. That's why it increases the cost of entry for the game. I suspect the D&D Next beginner box will work like this. In fact, I'd be completely shocked if it didn't. |
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Post by jakdethe on May 5, 2014 8:31:54 GMT -6
Sorry my original post sounded a bit harsh. It was intended to be a more positive comment on the OSR, and the fact that it's about the last thing that doesn't require you to dump money into it.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2014 10:36:34 GMT -6
I agree with your original post.
A few (several?) years ago i was going to get into a campaign/league at one of the local stores. They had an online forum, so I checked it out. One of the "issues" was people complaining about proxy models being used. From similar types of figures. Not, for example, fantasy dwarves being used as space orks. But one company's star commandos being used as another's space marines. Now I understand objecting when the issue is "I don't know what is proxying for what!" You need to use models that are very clear in what they are meant to be depicting.
But that wasn't the issue with the proxies. No, the issue was that it was cheaper to use the proxies, that the line of figures cost less. That the player hadn't spent enough money on his/her army. Apparently it isn't fun to play against someone who spent less than you.
I didn't join that campaign. And to be honest it soured me on the store itself. I'm lucky enough that there are a couple of local alternatives, so i got involved in things there.
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Post by sepulchre on May 5, 2014 13:13:31 GMT -6
Jakdethe wrote:
No need to apologize, I think everyone knows what you're driving at, and it can't emphasized enough.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 5, 2014 13:54:42 GMT -6
I thought most of the so called "retro clones" still had free PDFs? I think that most of them do, so you're right on this point. I think it comes down to the observation that a lot of folks want a "name" brand for their game. It doesn't matter if OSRIC is 99% the same as AD&D (and better organized) but if it's not the "real thing" some folks aren't interested. That's why I didn't mention the clones in my earlier post. If you include the clones and the free download adventures at places like Dragonsfoot, you could probably play for years and only have to pay for a set of dice.  |
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Post by Finarvyn on May 5, 2014 13:59:36 GMT -6
For those of us who haven't seen these rules, can you explain what you mean by "neutered"? Is the basic game just unplayable? That's probably a poor choice of words on my part but the Beginner boxed sets for this game doesn't have character creation rules, monsters or equipment lists. They don't even have the rules for spending XP (how you improve your character in-game) so once you play the supplied adventure you have no choice but to buy to rules. That's why it increases the cost of entry for the game. I suspect the D&D Next beginner box will work like this. In fact, I'd be completely shocked if it didn't. I haven't see the D&D Next stuff but I know a guy who gets to see a lot of the Next stuff early so I'll ask and see if he knows. I thought he said they would have rules for the "core four" classes at lower levels, and I thought there would be basic character generation, but I may be wrong on this. One thing that made Basic D&D cool (Holmes, Mentzer, and Moldvay versions) is that they were "complete" as far as everything you needed for low level play. They did have character generation rules and so on. Sadly, as has been noted about FFG Stat Wars and other starter games, many of them do not. |
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bea
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by bea on May 5, 2014 14:07:03 GMT -6
I LOVE the low price aspect of the OSR games and material. Last weekend I gave a printed copy of S&W WB to a teen who attended my con, and a printed copy of LotFP to someone else who said he'd love to write adventures for the con but didn't know any of the rules. I can do that because they cost me $2 to print and bind.
If you hang around G+, check a few blogs and read & Magazine or other pdf fanzines you'll easily drown in material without even trying or paying.
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skars
Level 6 Magician
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Post by skars on May 5, 2014 14:39:39 GMT -6
For those of us who haven't seen these rules, can you explain what you mean by "neutered"? Is the basic game just unplayable? That's probably a poor choice of words on my part but the Beginner boxed sets for this game doesn't have character creation rules, monsters or equipment lists. They don't even have the rules for spending XP (how you improve your character in-game) so once you play the supplied adventure you have no choice but to buy to rules. That's why it increases the cost of entry for the game. I suspect the D&D Next beginner box will work like this. In fact, I'd be completely shocked if it didn't. Actually, if you factor in the cost for the special dice it's really only a $15 sink for what amounts to a decent adventure with maps, pregens, tokens, etc. They do also have rules for spending XP, though, to be fair. The 4th edition boxed set with the essentials was an awesome offering for the price (I just didn't like 4th ed) and I hope DND Next is similar in that sense. |
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machpants
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Supersonic Underwear!
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Post by machpants on May 5, 2014 18:15:34 GMT -6
Pathfinder (the current best selling RPG) is ~30 for Core book (PHB + DMG) and another 30 for the Bestiary, get some dice, pencils, friends, and paper - hey presto! Also the Pathfinder Beginners Box (which is excellent value with dice, maps, levels up to 5) and is to Core PF as Basic DnD is to Advanced is only $37. Of course you can go modern and pick up the PDFs for 10 each or just get it all for free on the SRD. So I don't think the cost of entry is high. Some are, like anything by Fantasy Flight Games and WotCs reprints (but those are premium reprints, not standard), but getting into gaming has never been cheaper with many many free downloadable rule and even free online dice rollers!
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
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Post by idrahil on May 5, 2014 18:48:42 GMT -6
I recently bought on ebay, the 2E First Quest Boxed Set and the Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure. I think their original prices were $35 and $25 respectively.
The First Quest boxed set is very stripped down and nothing close to what 2E is. And yet, it is still a complete enough rule system to play many adventures. Throw in the Karameikos set and you have a thick book for helping dream up adventures as well as a few more adventures.
My point is that back when those sets came out, you could play a very nice game with just the First Quest boxed set and for a bit more of an investment you could have some really neat setting flavor.
To your point Jakdethe, when I returned to this hobby after decades away, I had hardly any of my old 2E stuff and a few 3E books. I am fairly certain I spent more on my 3E books (5 books that totaled well over $100) than I have on the OSR stuff I have.
I bought the Delving Deeper Boxed set and tons of other stuff for $1 to $5 with 2 items in the $12 range and I believe I've spent about $90-$100 over the past 3 years....as Bea said, I am drowning in material. Is all of it A+ material? No, but it is all neat and I love basically reading over other's people's ideas.
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 5, 2014 18:52:13 GMT -6
Even those expensive polyhedral dice are "optional". If really pressed you can generate all the funny number ranges using standard six-sided dice only, see here. |
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
Posts: 398
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Post by idrahil on May 5, 2014 18:55:30 GMT -6
But but....the "weird dice" are one of the things that draw kids in |
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Post by jakdethe on May 6, 2014 2:42:43 GMT -6
I agree with your original post. A few (several?) years ago i was going to get into a campaign/league at one of the local stores. They had an online forum, so I checked it out. One of the "issues" was people complaining about proxy models being used. From similar types of figures. Not, for example, fantasy dwarves being used as space orks. But one company's star commandos being used as another's space marines. Now I understand objecting when the issue is "I don't know what is proxying for what!" You need to use models that are very clear in what they are meant to be depicting. But that wasn't the issue with the proxies. No, the issue was that it was cheaper to use the proxies, that the line of figures cost less. That the player hadn't spent enough money on his/her army. Apparently it isn't fun to play against someone who spent less than you. I didn't join that campaign. And to be honest it soured me on the store itself. I'm lucky enough that there are a couple of local alternatives, so i got involved in things there. This is one of the biggest reasons I play BattleTech. Proxies are expressly allowed in the rules, and even allowed at official tournaments within reason. It's one of the things I hate about a lot of of modern games: the focus is on minis and painting, instead of actually playing the game (like modern D&D even). |
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Post by makofan on May 6, 2014 8:16:44 GMT -6
I don't mind paying for a game, but you get the complete Pendragon 5th edition for $40. You can buy add-ons if you want (I do), but you don't have to. Authors have to make money too. So I agree, over $100 is just too much. Now, if you end up buying ten modules, that's okay, as it is voluntary
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Post by coffee on May 6, 2014 8:18:41 GMT -6
I have to admit, the weird dice are a big part of the game for me. I wouldn't change them for anything.
But if you really don't want to spend any money on your hobby, and you already have a smartphone, there are free dice apps out there that work pretty well. (But it doesn't give you the real tactile feeling of rolling them yourself...)
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Post by inkmeister on May 6, 2014 11:00:02 GMT -6
I think it is generally the case that every hobby or activity is shifted in a consumption oriented direction as much as possible, and I think that's sad. For instance, I'm into cycling, and there is always the pressure to have the latest, lightest, fastest, most high tech carbon fiber bicycle. If you ride with a cycling group, virtually everyone is dressed up in the space suit - the spandex, the fancy jersey, the ultra light carbon bike, etc. It's so bad that I find many cyclists seem to regard me with scorn, or assume I'm not a serious cyclist, because I choose to use a steel touring bicycle from the early 90's, and dress in regular clothes, and so forth. The bike is a small part of an equation, and a fat, out of shape rider is not going to significantly benefit from a bike that is 5 pounds lighter than mine. But everything is shifted to emphasize the clothes, the high tech bike, etc.
Likewise with music; even albums will often advertise music products - guitar strings, cymbals, guitars, amplifiers, etc, as if the equipment is the most important part of the equation.
And the list goes on.
I think it is empowering to find hobbies that are cheap and that emphasize self development over consumerism. Roleplaying is potentially very good this way, if you follow the initial pattern of making up your own rules and settings and adventures.
I also find cycling and music to be very rewarding this way, if I bring myself to ignore the ridiculous consumption oriented culture surrounding these things.
I don't need the latest guitar, the biggest, fanciest piano, the latest digital signal processing, the lightest, fastest bike, etc. Music, cycling, roleplaying, etc - these are all far more about the individuals involved than the products used.
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Post by ffilz on May 6, 2014 11:19:58 GMT -6
inkmeister, yea, I've definitely seen that kind of progression.
I used to be active in the caving (spelunking) community and it was heading towards more and more fancy gear. Fortunately for the most part, people didn't scorn you if you chose to use budget gear (I purchased $20 Dickie's coveralls rather than $100+ nylon caving suits, used relatively cheap lamps - though I lucked into some industrial grade mining lamps at the North Carolina State Surplus auction and came out with close to free lamps after selling the excess components and buying new batteries for the two lamps I kept, but by then, others were spending $100+ on fancy new lamps, some of the first LED lamps and such).
I have always appreciated gaming as being a hobby you CAN get into cheap. One of my favorite RPGs is $25 for a complete game in hardcover (Burning Wheel). My other favorite games are not quite so easy (OD&D which at least is in print again and RuneQuest which the 1st/2nd edition is out of print and no PDF option). The cool thing with RPGs is that a new player can join an existing group and until they decide they are interested can avoid spending ANY money (someone's got enough dice to loan, and many games are simple enough that someone can help you with chargen and then you can play without having read the rulebook at home).
Frank
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Post by sulldawga on May 6, 2014 12:01:54 GMT -6
You can buy the 4e PH and DMG for $40 total now. Closer to $25 if you don't mind used.
Pathfinder PH and DMG equivalents are $60 total or you can buy their Beginner Box for $27.
The 3.5e Rules Compendium PDF is $12.99 on DnDClassics.com $30 used in print.
$10 will get you both the B/X Basic and Expert D&D PDFs. That's what I cut my teeth on as a 9 year old back in 1980.
I don't think it's all that big of a deal. Stuff's not that expensive, especially if you're ok with PDFs.
For me, the stuff that seems most expensive is the third party (e.g. not WotC or Paizo) publications. Sure, the trend these days is to combine the PH and DMG info into one larger book but still...
Numenera - $40
Shadowrun, 5th Ed. - $40
Star Wars Edge of the Empire - $60
13th Age - $45
DCC RPG - $40
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skars
Level 6 Magician
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Post by skars on May 6, 2014 13:37:17 GMT -6
I agree with your original post. A few (several?) years ago i was going to get into a campaign/league at one of the local stores. They had an online forum, so I checked it out. One of the "issues" was people complaining about proxy models being used. From similar types of figures. Not, for example, fantasy dwarves being used as space orks. But one company's star commandos being used as another's space marines. Now I understand objecting when the issue is "I don't know what is proxying for what!" You need to use models that are very clear in what they are meant to be depicting. But that wasn't the issue with the proxies. No, the issue was that it was cheaper to use the proxies, that the line of figures cost less. That the player hadn't spent enough money on his/her army. Apparently it isn't fun to play against someone who spent less than you. I didn't join that campaign. And to be honest it soured me on the store itself. I'm lucky enough that there are a couple of local alternatives, so i got involved in things there. This is one of the biggest reasons I play BattleTech. Proxies are expressly allowed in the rules, and even allowed at official tournaments within reason. It's one of the things I hate about a lot of of modern games: the focus is on minis and painting, instead of actually playing the game (like modern D&D even). Proxies have been allowed in Battletech for a long time, I am guessing largely due to availability of miniatures (ie not every mech is available) and then there was the whole ral Partha/robotech IP snafu that kept particular models off the shelves for a long time. |
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Post by kent on May 6, 2014 15:24:17 GMT -6
I think it is generally the case that every hobby or activity is shifted in a consumption oriented direction as much as possible, and I think that's sad. For instance, I'm into cycling, and there is always the pressure to have the latest, lightest, fastest, most high tech carbon fiber bicycle. If you ride with a cycling group, virtually everyone is dressed up in the space suit - the spandex, the fancy jersey, the ultra light carbon bike, etc. It's so bad that I find many cyclists seem to regard me with scorn, or assume I'm not a serious cyclist, because I choose to use a steel touring bicycle from the early 90's, and dress in regular clothes, and so forth. The bike is a small part of an equation, and a fat, out of shape rider is not going to significantly benefit from a bike that is 5 pounds lighter than mine. But everything is shifted to emphasize the clothes, the high tech bike, etc. Likewise with music; even albums will often advertise music products - guitar strings, cymbals, guitars, amplifiers, etc, as if the equipment is the most important part of the equation. And the list goes on. I think it is empowering to find hobbies that are cheap and that emphasize self development over consumerism. Roleplaying is potentially very good this way, if you follow the initial pattern of making up your own rules and settings and adventures. I also find cycling and music to be very rewarding this way, if I bring myself to ignore the ridiculous consumption oriented culture surrounding these things. I don't need the latest guitar, the biggest, fanciest piano, the latest digital signal processing, the lightest, fastest bike, etc. Music, cycling, roleplaying, etc - these are all far more about the individuals involved than the products used. I largely agree, particularly with the principle that creative participation is superior, by far, to consumer hoarding, the neurotic's response to advertising. I have to say when it comes to music and books as hobbies, and they are hobbies, that there are such things as inadequate and adequate Hi-Fi equipment and sensitivity to mastering which is only obvious to those who have the opportunity to hear music properly. And when it comes to books, if superb editions of classic works of literature sustain an interest in reading works of the highest quality then they serve their purpose. Most people don't read, and most of those who claim to read read rubbish. And yet your cycling analogy is perfectly clear, and ridiculous, and the opposite of what Im saying. Go figure. |
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Post by rsdean on May 7, 2014 10:45:01 GMT -6
Back in 2002/3 our local historical miniature war gaming club did a challenge for putting together a game for with a budget of $100 not including tools and paint. The results are linked here: www.bucksurdu.com/Personal/BBC/bbc_main.htmlWe'd have to update it a bit today, since 10 years of inflation separate us from those happy days, but the principles remain. Outside of free PDFs, my favorite one-book-is-all-you-need rpg is the Mongoose edition of Traveller, especially if you can find the $20 pocket edition. Add a handful of d6s, pencils, and paper, and you're good to go indefinitely. |
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Post by Falconer on May 7, 2014 14:22:29 GMT -6
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Post by kenmeister on May 7, 2014 14:28:52 GMT -6
A bit oversimplified, since a Dungeon Master is always willing to spend more money to get the game going than a player is. So when you look at 3.5E, the player cost is 49.95, whereas the DM cost is 149.85. That huge Pathfinder rulebook for 49.99 is actually quite reasonable on a per page basis. |
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