How do you do 3LBB Hobbits Firing?

[waysoftheearth]

This poll is to find out how folks like to handle Hobbits firing in 3LBB OD&D.


Here's some background information...


In Chainmail's MASS BATTLE missile rules Hobbits can "fire stones" as far a bow, and every two Hobbits firing count as three. Slings are not mentioned explicitly but most probably implied. The mass battle mechanics calculate casualties based on numbers firing and target armour--they're not particularly D&D-like at all.

Chainmail's MAN TO MAN rules then provide a mechanic for individual shooting: a missile-weapon vs. armour-type matrix that looks similar to the ACS's Attack Matrix I. You throw 2d6 and compare the result to a "to hit" number based on range and target AC. The MtM rules also state that the rules of mass battles generally apply to MtM combat too, but they don't explicitly say how the Hobbits' advantage in Mass Battles should be applied to individual shooting. This might be because the MtM rules existed before the Fantasy Supplement and Hobbit rules?

Next we had the 3LBBs which state that Hobbits: "have deadly accuracy with missiles as detailed in CHAINMAIL." As noted above, the rule which is given in Chainmail isn't an "obvious" fit for individual shooting, so it's open to interpretation (which is the reason of this poll).

Finally (just for completeness) we have Greyhawk which says: "All hobbits add +3 to hit probabilities when using the sling." This could be either a correction or an addition; it might be intended to replace what is stated in M&M, or to add to it. This poll is primarily about 3LBB Hobbits firing, but I'm guessing some folks will have backported that last rule from Greyhawk.


So, how do Hobbits fire in your game?

[jebuh214]

Apr 24, 2014 23:57:23 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

This poll is to find out how folks like to handle Hobbits firing in 3LBB OD&D.


Here's some background information...


In Chainmail's MASS BATTLE missile rules Hobbits can "fire stones" as far a bow, and every two Hobbits firing count as three. Slings are not mentioned explicitly but most probably implied. The mass battle mechanics calculate casualties based on numbers firing and target armour--they're not particularly D&D-like at all.

Chainmail's MAN TO MAN rules then provide a mechanic for individual shooting: a missile-weapon vs. armour-type matrix that looks similar to the ACS's Attack Matrix I. You throw 2d6 and compare the result to a "to hit" number based on range and target AC. The MtM rules also state that the rules of mass battles generally apply to MtM combat too, but they don't explicitly say how the Hobbits' advantage in Mass Battles should be applied to individual shooting. This might be because the MtM rules existed before the Fantasy Supplement and Hobbit rules?

Next we had the 3LBBs which state that Hobbits: "have deadly accuracy with missiles as detailed in CHAINMAIL." As noted above, the rule which is given in Chainmail isn't an "obvious" fit for individual shooting, so it's open to interpretation (which is the reason of this poll).

Finally (just for completeness) we have Greyhawk which says: "All hobbits add +3 to hit probabilities when using the sling." This could be either a correction or an addition; it might be intended to replace what is stated in M&M, or to add to it. This poll is primarily about 3LBB Hobbits firing, but I'm guessing some folks will have backported that last rule from Greyhawk.


So, how do Hobbits fire in your game?

I actually use this system:

Hobbit's Level	Fighting Capability (Attacks Per Round)
1st	2 Men (2)
2nd	3 Men or Hero -1 (3 or 4-1)
3rd	Hero or 5 Men (4 or 5)
4th	Hero +1 or 6 Men (4+1 or 6)

This allows for them to attack fantastic opponents earlier, meanwhile dealing quite a bit of damage against regular opponents also.

edit: oh, I forgot to say that this is a rough progression of 3/2 of the regular Fighting Man's Fighting Capabilities.

[Zulgyan]

• They can fire a stone as far as an archer shoots (Chainmail p. 29).
• Their attack rate with the sling is 3/2 (Chainmail p. 29).

[waysoftheearth]

Apr 25, 2014 0:39:34 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

• Their attack rate with the sling is 3/2 (Chainmail p. 29).

This is a common ruling (which is why I put that as an option in the poll).


What Chainmail says on p29 is:

They can fire a stone as far as an archer shoots, and because of their well known accuracy, for every two Hobbits firing count three on the Missile Fire table.

This doesn't explicitly affect rate of fire (implying improved accuracy rather than speed); it increases the "effective" number firing on the missile fire table (p11).


Edit:

The Hobbit player might also wonder if he'd be better off firing twice per turn with a bow?

[Torreny]

I use the 'man value' and massed combat rules (not the ACS or MTM). If there's multiple hobbits, I count that extra one, as explained in the book. If we're talking someone's character, every two levels he's rolling another extra die of missile fire each turn. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

[waysoftheearth]

Apr 25, 2014 3:12:57 GMT -6 Torreny said:

I use the 'man value' and massed combat rules (not the ACS or MTM). If there's multiple hobbits, I count that extra one, as explained in the book. If we're talking someone's character, every two levels he's rolling another extra die of missile fire each turn. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Does this mean that a Hobbit Veteran (FC 1 man) would fire once per turn, a Hobbit Warrior (FC 2 men) would fire thrice per turn, a Hobbit Swordsman (FC 3 men) would fire four times per turn, and a Hobbit Hero (FC 4 men) would fire six times per turn?

[Mushgnome]

In most of my campaigns, I give hobbits no bonus with slings/stones (just as I give elves no bonus with bows, dwarves no bonus with axes/hammers, or humans no bonus growing scruffy emo beards). "All weapons are functionally equal" is a fundamental 3LBB trope in my mind, and I don't mix Chainmail and D&D.

[waysoftheearth]

Apr 25, 2014 5:42:10 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

"All weapons are functionally equal" is a fundamental 3LBB trope in my mind

I guessed you might vote that way Mushgnome

Of course the other side of it is this poll is about Hobbits not about slings. Would Sam Gamgee, with a sudden flick, have hit Bill Ferny square on the nose with an apple if he weren't a Hobbit?

[Mushgnome]

Sam is so incredibly talented with a sling that being struck in the nose by his tiny sling-stone hurts just the same (1d6 damage) as being decapitated by Gimli's axe, eviscerated by Legolas' twin-dagger whirlwind, or even chopped by Aragorn with his magic sword! (since magic swords in OD&D don't get a bonus to damage)

A generous DM might even give hobbits a weapon called a "sling" that is not found elsewhere in the 3LBB's. In the hands of a hobbit, a sling has 15" range, does full 1d6 damage as noted above, and has the major advantage of free, easily-replenished ammunition.

[waysoftheearth]

Apr 25, 2014 6:17:58 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

Sam is so incredibly talented with a sling that being struck in the nose by his tiny sling-stone hurts just the same (1d6 damage) as being decapitated by Gimli's axe, eviscerated by Legolas' twin-dagger whirlwind, or even chopped by Aragorn with his magic sword! (since magic swords in OD&D don't get a bonus to damage)

A generous DM might even give hobbits a weapon called a "sling" that is not found elsewhere in the 3LBB's. In the hands of a hobbit, a sling has 15" range, does full 1d6 damage as noted above, and has the major advantage of free, easily-replenished ammunition.

(why is there no longer an exalt button??)


Yes, smiting the Enemy with a Lawful magic sword only does 1-6 points of damage, but leaving it on the floor so they might pick it up does 2-12 points of damage

[Zulgyan]

Apr 25, 2014 0:46:22 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Apr 25, 2014 0:39:34 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

• Their attack rate with the sling is 3/2 (Chainmail p. 29).

This is a common ruling (which is why I put that as an option in the poll).


What Chainmail says on p29 is:

They can fire a stone as far as an archer shoots, and because of their well known accuracy, for every two Hobbits firing count three on the Missile Fire table.

This doesn't explicitly affect rate of fire (implying improved accuracy rather than speed); it increases the "effective" number firing on the missile fire table (p11).


Edit:

The Hobbit player might also wonder if he'd be better off firing twice per turn with a bow?

Sure, mine is an "interpretation" of Chainmail.

I should clarify that in my OD&D games, ROF for bow is 1, not 2.

When M&T speaks about "deadly accuracy", it is refering to the "as far a bow" thing (the hobbit will have less penalties firing afar). Again, just an interpretation, and honestly, maybe intentionally looking for one that differs from AD&D, so as to make my OD&D more special.

[Deleted]

In my game I give hobbits +3 to hit with thrown weapons (yes this would include daggers, spears and throwing axes). I feel as though this bonus might make them a bit more attractive to players in spite of their level limits (Hero level for F-M and Thief level for Thief).

Additionally, but slightly off topic, I only allow elves the ability to fire twice in one round with a bow but balance this with limiting their spells known to be equal to how many they can cast, i.e. at 1st level they get 1 spell, at 2nd 2 spells and so on. (I'll likely discuss this more under the "A Different take on magic" thread).

[Torreny]

Apr 25, 2014 4:15:18 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Does this mean that a Hobbit Veteran (FC 1 man) would fire once per turn, a Hobbit Warrior (FC 2 men) would fire thrice per turn, a Hobbit Swordsman (FC 3 men) would fire four times per turn, and a Hobbit Hero (FC 4 men) would fire six times per turn?

Pretty much, yes. The veteran would get a +1 to his roll, being the veteran and all. Which sort of makes up for the discrepancy in dice between first and second level (3 dice). Third is four dice, with fourth level seeing six dice. These dice really help out the light foot classification of hobbits, and their level maximum. Also, I have to point out I use the Chainmail combat turns, with number of rounds as determined by mass combat rules. The hobbit can do some major tossing outside of the melee each minute. I'd probably just stick to the generic bonus if using the ACS.

[Mushgnome]

"Hobbits firing stones" synergizes nicely with their hide in woodland/brush ability. They can sneakily set up a sniper-nest up to 15" from the action and become deadly little ninjas! It's a nice consolation prize for their 4th level advancement cap.

[Lord Cias]

I base the bonus on the type of weapon used:
Bows: may fire 3 arrows/round (normal is 2), +1 to hit
Crossbows: +3 to hit, increase range by 3"
Slings: may fire 2 stones/round (normal is 1), +1 to hit, increase range by 3"
Thrown Stones: may throw 3 stones/round, range for thrown stones is 2/4/6
All Others: +3 to hit

[waysoftheearth]

So, nothing like a consensus then. Who'd have guessed?

[Deleted]

I voted for other, I have not had a hobbit in a game in a long time, but BITD we ran it as three attacks/two melee rounds at +3 on a d20 for each attack.

[verhaden]

Apr 25, 2014 5:42:10 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

In most of my campaigns, I give hobbits no bonus with slings/stones (just as I give elves no bonus with bows, dwarves no bonus with axes/hammers, or humans no bonus growing scruffy emo beards). "All weapons are functionally equal"

Ditto. I also don't play with hobbits in my home games, so I doubly ignore any attack bonuses.

[waysoftheearth]

Apr 28, 2014 17:51:46 GMT -6 verhaden said:

Apr 25, 2014 5:42:10 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

In most of my campaigns, I give hobbits no bonus with slings/stones (just as I give elves no bonus with bows, dwarves no bonus with axes/hammers, or humans no bonus growing scruffy emo beards). "All weapons are functionally equal"

Ditto. I also don't play with hobbits in my home games, so I doubly ignore any attack bonuses.

It's an interesting argument.

The way I see it the Hobbit racial advantages are in the same category as the Elf and Dwarf racial advantages; e.g., split move/fire, +1 damage with magical weapons, half damage from giants, etc.

[Leonaru]

Three attacks per two rounds is my interpretation of choice.

[waysoftheearth]

FWIW, I did some further figuring on this topic.

It seems to me that the Hobbits' 3:2 numbers advantage in mass battles shooting could "plausibly" be expressed as a 3:2 dice advantage in man-to-man individual shooting.

I.e., what if Hobbits "firing stones" roll three dice (discarding the lowest) rather than two dice for individual shooting in man-to-man?

I calculated the hit probabilities (according to the MtM rules) for all missile weapons versus all armour types at all ranges, for straight 2d6, and then for 3d6 dropping the lowest, and then compared the results. It turns out that 3d6 drop the lowest is, on average, a +13.3% advantage over straight 2d6 for individual shooting under the MtM rules.

That is "near enough" to +15%, or a +3 attack adjustment, on a single d20 using the ACS.

Interestingly, +3 is exactly the advantage which Greyhawk later ascribed to Hobbits using slings.

[ratikranger]

I really prefer a +2 bonus but after reading all the arguments in favor of +3 I think that's actually a decent interpretation. Also it's enough of an advantage versus the other demi-humans I think. So go for it! :-)

[waysoftheearth]

Looks like +3 attack adjustment is the most popular interpretation.

Thanks voters; good to know

[jacar]

+3 on a D20. If using the Chainmail MtM tables, I'd think +1 is appropriate.

[waysoftheearth]

May 15, 2014 8:22:31 GMT -6 jacar said:

+3 on a D20. If using the Chainmail MtM tables, I'd think +1 is appropriate.

For the the man-to-man tables I like the idea of throwing 3 dice and discarding the lowest, but since I created the poll I can't vote