Abilities of elves/dwarves/halflings in LBBs, Greyhawk, etc.

[allensh]

Does there exist anywhere a CONCISE but complete summary of exactly what the abilities of elves, dwarves and halflings are, including abilities derived from Chainmail? And which of those abilities still apply when using the supplements, particularly Greyhawk?

Allen

[allensh]

One example of my conundrum. When an ability in Chainmail "adds an extra die" would that equate to a +1 in D&D? Because if so then when using a magic sword, Elves would get a whopping +4 to hit a Goblin! And that doesn't even count the bonus of the sword itself (or maybe it does; that initial extra die might be the +1 from the sword)

[snorri]

Jan 5, 2014 5:15:08 GMT -6 allensh said:

Does there exist anywhere a CONCISE but complete summary of exactly what the abilities of elves, dwarves and halflings are, including abilities derived from Chainmail? And which of those abilities still apply when using the supplements, particularly Greyhawk?

Here for dwarves :

awizardinabottle.blogspot.fr/2010/08/dwarves-in-od.html

[allensh]

Jan 5, 2014 5:37:43 GMT -6 snorri said:

Jan 5, 2014 5:15:08 GMT -6 allensh said:

Does there exist anywhere a CONCISE but complete summary of exactly what the abilities of elves, dwarves and halflings are, including abilities derived from Chainmail? And which of those abilities still apply when using the supplements, particularly Greyhawk?

Here for dwarves :

awizardinabottle.blogspot.fr/2010/08/dwarves-in-od.html

Thank you! I look forward to reading it!

Allen

[waysoftheearth]

As for Elves, a quick look over reveals...

Chainmail
+ (Assumed to be) armed with "deadly bows and magic swords",
+ Move 12",
+ Can perform split move and fire (see CM p12),
+ Ability to become invisible,
+ When invisible cannot attack or be attacked, but can become visible and attack in the same turn,
+ Ability to see in normal darkness as if it were light,
+ Save against basilisk petrification with a roll of 7+ on 2d6,
+ Those armed with a magic weapon add one die (in mass combat), except that:
++ versus goblins (in mass combat) add three dice,
++ versus orcs (in mass combat) add two dice.
+ Those (presumably individuals now) armed with a magic weapon can melee on the fantasy combat table (and are approximately as effective as a theoretical hero-2 or wight-1. I.e., very poor except against the weakest sorts).

3LBBs
+ Move 12" (plus charge bonus**), AC 5, 1+1 HD, treasure type E,
+ Lawful or neutral,
+ Possibility of "wood" or "meadow" elves,
+ Able to speak languages of elves, orcs, hobgoblins, and gnolls,
+ PC elves cannot see in the dark, but NPC/monster elves can,
+ Can switch classes between adventures without any prime requisite requirement,
+ Those dual-classed have the benefits of both classes (simultaneously!*); "they may use both weaponry and spells",
+ Those dual-classed can wear magic armor and still act as magic-users,
+ Limited to 4th fighting man/8th magic-user,
+ Immune to ghoul paralysis (which lasts one turn and against which there is no saving throw for other normal types),
+ Affected by raise dead and cure spells,
+ Have the ability to move silently,
+ Are nearly invisible in their gray-green cloaks,
+ Those armed with magical weapons adjust damage by a further +1,
+ Those on foot armed with bows may split-move and fire,
+ 4/6 likely to find secret doors when actively searching,
+ 2/6 likely to spot secret doors when passing nearby,
+ 2/6 likely to identify noises when listening at doors,
+ 2/6 likely to force open stuck doors.

* Use of the word "simultaneously" is the subject of epic debate; include or not as you see fit.
** M&T hints (bottom of p4) only that creatures may charge and get bonus to normal move. S&S (p3) shows explicitly that elves should add 2"-4".

+Greyhawk
+ 5+ feet in height, slim build, 120 lb,
+ Possibility of "wood", "meadow", or "high" elves,
+ Add +1 to their hit probabilities when using sword or bow,
+ Elves (presumably monsters/NPCs) now deal 1-10 points of damage per attack, or by weapon type,
+ Those with 17 or 18 strength can reach 5th and 6th level fighter,
+ Those with 18 intelligence can reach 9th level magic-user,
+ Advance to 6th clerical level as fighter/m-u/cleric (but then limited to 6th level m-u only).
+ Advance as a fighter/m-u/thief, or as a thief only,
+ Advance to the highest level as thieves,
+ +5% pick pockets, +10% move silently, +15% hide in shadows,
+ Multi-classed elves must now always divide XP evenly between their classes, even when they can no longer advance in a particular class***,
+ PC elves now have infravision (as do dwarves), and can once again see in the dark,
+ Possibility also of half-elves.

*** This differs to the 3LBB dual-classed elf who could "switch" between one class and another -- presumably for the purpose of determining which class to allocate earned XP to. Once again, this is the subject of epic debate; so you'll just have to go with whatever works for you.

[Red Baron]

I like Chainmail elves. They feel like true badasses. Each one is like a little glorfindel, ready to take on the powers of darkness alone.

[waysoftheearth]

Dwarves...

Chainmail
+ Move 6", charge 9", attack as Hv.Ft and defend as Lt.Ft (in mass combat),
+ Operate equally well day or night,
+ Suffer only one-half kills from trolls, ogres, and giants, and likewise cause only one-half kills against them,
+ Must attack goblins (kobolds) before any other enemies in sight,
+ Goblins (Kobolds) will automatically attack any Dwarves (Gnomes) within charging distance,
+ Save against basilisk petrification with a roll of 10+ on 2d6,
+ Dig twice as fast as an equal number of human sappers,
+ May attempt 2 more mines or counter-mines than usual.

LBBs
+ Move 6" (plus charge bonus), AC 4, 1 HD, treasure type G,
+ Lawful or neutral,
+ Able to speak the languages of gnomes, kobolds, and goblins,
+ PC dwarves cannot see in the dark, but NPC/monster dwarves can,
+ Can be fighting-men up to 6th level,
+ Have a high level of magic resistance; add four levels when rolling saving throws,
+ Have full advantage of the +3 war hammer; double range (6"), automatic return, 2-12 damage, 3-15 damage versus giants,
+ Will note slanting passages, traps, shifting walls, and new construction in underground settings,
+ Affected by reincarnation, raise dead, and cure spells,
+ "Clumsy monsters" such as ogres, giants, and the like will score only one-half damage against dwarves,
+ Goblins, hobgoblins, and kobolds will attack dwarves on sight,
+ May have domesticated bears, wolves, etc, in their lair,
+ 2/6 likely to find secret doors when actively searching,
+ 2/6 likely to identify noises when listening at doors,
+ 2/6 likely to force open stuck doors,

+Greyhawk
+ 4ft tall, stocky build, very broad, 150lbs,
+ Possibility of "hill", "mountain", or "burrower (such as gnomes)" types,
+ All dwarves add +1 to hit, and subtract -1 from chances to be hit, when fighting the "Giant Class",
+ Dwarves (presumably monsters/NPCs) deal 1-8 points of damage per attack, or damage by weapon type,
+ Dwarves with 17 or 18 strength can reach 7th or 8th level as fighters,
+ Can advance to the highest level as thieves,
+ NPC dwarves can reach the 7th clerical level as fighter/clerics,
+ Can be fighter/thieves but no bonus XP is earned for high ability scores,
+ Multi-classed dwarves must *always* divide XP evenly between their classes, even when they can no longer advance in a particular class,
+ dwarves have infravision and can see monsters up to 60ft away in the dark,
+ +5% open locks, move silently, hide in shadows; +15% remove traps.

[waysoftheearth]

Hobbits/Halflings

Chainmail
+ Move 12", attack as Lt.Ft and defend as Lt.Ft (in mass combat),
+ Ability to become invisible (in brush or woods only),
+ Can fire a sling-stone as far as an archer shoots,
+ Every two Hobbits count as three on the Missile Fire table,
+ Save against basilisk petrification with a roll of 10+ on 2d6.

LBBs
+ Lawful,
+ Can be fighting-men up to 4th level,
+ Have a high level of magic resistance; add four levels when rolling saving throws,
+ "Deadly accuracy with missiles as detailed in Chainmail".
+ 2/6 likely to find secret doors when actively searching,
+ 2/6 likely to identify noises when listening at doors,
+ 1/6 likely to force open stuck doors.

+Greyhawk
+ Lawful or neutral,
+ Can advance to the highest level as thieves,
+ +5% remove traps, pick pockets; +10% open locks, move silently, hide in shadows; +1 hear noise,
+ All hobbits add +3 to hit probabilities when using the sling.

Multi-classed hobbits are not mentioned, and nor are they listed on the Attacks and Damage by Monster Type table.

[allensh]

Thank you, waysoftheearth. This will be most helpful!

Allen

[tetramorph]

How might one best translate the Elven bonus against, say, goblins, in terms of the alternative combat system most of us actually use?

[waysoftheearth]

May 31, 2014 20:50:40 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

How might one best translate the Elven bonus against, say, goblins, in terms of the alternative combat system most of us actually use?

Those Elves (and Fairies) armed with magical weapons add an extra die in normal combat, and against other fantastic creatures they will perform even better:

(CM p29)

So (presumably individual) Elves armed with magical weapons are able to throw two dice in mass combat (or three vs goblins, or four vs orcs).

I read this as implying that an elf with a magical weapon attacks similarly to a hero in normal combat. In fact, he has four attacks versus Orcs in normal combat as does a hero. He has three attacks versus Goblins in normal combat, and two attacks versus other types in normal combat. He can still only withstand a single hit himself, however.


In Mass Combat:

Elves attack as HF, Goblins defend as LF, and Orcs defend as HF:

HF roll 1 die/figure and require 5+ to kill LF. p(1 kill)=33%.
HF roll 1 die/figure and require 6 to kill HF. p(1 kill)=17%.

Or, if an elf figure now has a magic weapon:

An elf w/magic-weapon rolls 3 dice and requires 5+ to kill Goblins. p(0 kills)=30%, p(1 kill)=44%, p(2 kills)=22%, p(3 kills)=4%.
An elf w/magic-weapon rolls 4 dice and requires 6 to kill Orc. p(0 kills)=48%, p(1 kill)=39%, p(2 kills)<12%, p(3 kills)<2%, p(4 kills)<1%.

Ignoring the change of scale (from a 1:20 figure to a 1:1 figure) and the possibility of multiple kills, (and assuming my hand-figuring is accurate) having a magic weapon improves the elf's chances of killing a goblin from 33% to 70%. So +37%.

Likewise, having a magic weapon improves the elf's chances of killing an orc from 17% to 52%. So +35%.


All this glorious complexity is translated into OD&D's ACS as a +1 adjustment to damage scored by elves when using a magic weapon (M&T p16).


The average damage roll in OD&D is 3.5 hit points (and quite a few magic weapons don't adjust damage).

Elves will add 1 to this figure when using a magic weapon, bringing their average up to 4.5 hit points.
4.5/3.5 = 1.29, so +29%. (With magic weapons which already adjust damage, the elf's advantage will be progressively less valuable).

+29% is slightly worse than the +35% and +37% advantage Chainmail gives Elves vs Orcs and Goblins, but may be slightly better than the advantage Chainmail gives Elves vs other normal types. (this is harder to pin down, because there is no fixed frequency distribution for the occurrence of the "other types").


In short, the +1 damage adjustment which OD&D grants elves for hits with magic weapons is roughly "on par" (perhaps somewhat weaker) with the advantages given to elves with magic weapons in Chainmail's normal combat.

[Porphyre]

About damage adjustement:
Vol 2 says, in the Elves description: "when a hit is scored the possible number of damage points will be 2-7 per die."
The question being: in OD&D magical Swords have a bonus to hit, but no bonus to damage (same for bows). Other weapons "gain a bonus of equal merit on damage scored".

So, an elf with a magical sword will inflict 1d6+1 ("2-7 per die"). But will an elf with a +1 axe inflict 1d6+1 or 1d6+2 ?

Personnally, I would probably rule for 1D6+1 in all cases. First, it gives elves an edge (no pun intended) with Swords and bows; second, it's more in line with the "bonuses don't stack" philosophy.

[Red Baron]

Jun 1, 2014 7:16:03 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

About damage adjustement:
Vol 2 says, in the Elves description: "when a hit is scored the possible number of damage points will be 2-7 per die."
The question being: in OD&D magical Swords have a bonus to hit, but no bonus to damage (same for bows). Other weapons "gain a bonus of equal merit on damage scored".

So, an elf with a magical sword will inflict 1d6+1 ("2-7 per die"). But will an elf with a +1 axe inflict 1d6+1 or 1d6+2 ?

Personnally, I would probably rule for 1D6+1 in all cases. First, it gives elves an edge (no pun intended) with Swords and bows; second, it's more in line with the "bonuses don't stack" philosophy.

Gil Galad used a magic spear.

[Porphyre]

Well, look how it served him!

[Stormcrow]

It took Aiglos and Narsil, wielded by Gil-Galad and Elendil, to defeat Sauron. That their wielders perished in the act is not a reflection on the weapons.

[tetramorph]

A friend from my campaign group reminded me that Gygax "codified" it in Greyhawk as a general +1. That matches y'all's detailed analyses, above.

What I was reading right past (amazing how we sometimes do that, isn't it?) was the fact that in Chainmail it only applies to Elves wielding magical weapons.

Thanks, y'all

[waysoftheearth]

Jun 1, 2014 7:16:03 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Vol 2 says, in the Elves description: "when a hit is scored the possible number of damage points will be 2-7 per die."
The question being: in OD&D magical Swords have a bonus to hit, but no bonus to damage (same for bows). Other weapons "gain a bonus of equal merit on damage scored".

So, an elf with a magical sword will inflict 1d6+1 ("2-7 per die"). But will an elf with a +1 axe inflict 1d6+1 or 1d6+2 ?

Personnally, I would probably rule for 1D6+1 in all cases. First, it gives elves an edge (no pun intended) with Swords and bows; second, it's more in line with the "bonuses don't stack" philosophy.

That's plausible for sure, but what about an Elf with a spear +2 or +3? Or a mace or hammer +2? Would he too cause 2-7 hit points of damage on a hit?

Jun 1, 2014 11:47:59 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

A friend from my campaign group reminded me that Gygax "codified" it in Greyhawk as a general +1.

I don't have it with me but (from vague memory) didn't Greyhawk changed it to an attack adjustment with swords and bows (including non-magical swords and bows)? Whereas in OD&D it's a damage adjustment with magical weapons.

[Porphyre]

One another thing to consider, is that the quote "when a hit is scored the possible number of damage points will be 2-7 per die" comes from Vol 2 and not Vol 1.
Does it apply to PC elves, or is that just an indication for Elves as "monsters" as decribed in M&T, with AC5, Mv 12", 1+1 HD, treasure E?

In other words "for elf characters , use the standard rules for magic weapons as fit; for elves as monsters , just make the attack roll as a 1+1 HD monster, but , if a magical weapon is present (30% of magic item in a E-type treasure), a 1+1 die of damage is inflicted"

After all, there is a lot of assumptions direcly lift up from CHAINMAIL that don't apply to level 1 player characters. 
The fact that the description texte of M&T says that "Elves have the ability of
 moving silently and are nearly invisible in their gray-green cloaks" as a force (as in CHAINMAIL) doesn't imply that every single elf has a pair of elven boots and an elven cloack.