The Ineffective Ringwraiths as Villains in Pursuit

[kent]

Peter Jackson emphasised with glaring stupidity in The Fellowship of Ring the ineffectiveness of the Nine Riders as they sought for the hobbits and when they came upon them with Aragorn on Weathertop. Outside of straight comedy, villains don't repeatedly come within hand's reach of the protagonists and fail without inviting ridicule. Of course in the book they don't get so close except at Weathertop, and yet from conversations Ive had with people whose opinions I respect, we agree that Tolkien himself failed to allow the Ringwraiths to live up to their billing as presented by Gandalf in his sketch history. They are in fact Halloween useless. Nine Billowing Black Blouses.

In a letter from June 1958, in which he excoriates Morton Zimmerman for his inept film treatment of the work, Tolkien does give some insight into how he intended the Nine to function. They are ghosts and they scare you to death. The attack is psychological horror and I surmise that Tolkien did not know how to convey this as a writer.

Tolkien quote:
Leaving the inn at night and running off into the dark is ... the last thing Aragorn would have done. It is based on a misconception of the Black Riders throughout, which I beg Z to reconsider. Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.

[Finarvyn]

An interesting quote, and a great thread!

A couple thoughts I've had about ringwraiths:

(1) While at one point they were great kings and leaders, now that they are slaves to Sauron I get the impression that they aren't encouaged to be innovative. Indeed, the enslavement process that killed much of their personality may have done in much of their intellect and reasoning skills as well.

(2) While the stated intent for the Nazgul is that of capturing the ring, they seem better at herding than capturing.

(3) Perhaps Sauron was afraid that if a Nazgul were to be in posession of the One Ring then he might be able to steal its power.

I may move this to the Tolkien section.

[sepulchre]

Finyarvyn wrote:

While at one point they were great kings and leaders, now that they are slaves...Perhaps Sauron was afraid that if a Nazgul were to be in posession of the One Ring then he might be able to steal its power.

Assuming you meant 'they' might be able to steal its power, I think all of this is spot on. Moreover, without their numbers, It's apparent they feared the one who bore the one ring, otherwise I imagine the nine would have set off to find it much like the lone grail knights in Excalibur.

[kent]

By all means move it Finarvyn, I personally find the Fiction forum fiddly with the low traffic subforums.

"they seem better at herding than capturing"

That is a good observation. I can imagine victims killing themselves in accidents or by suicide, jumping into a river or off a cliff, in their desperation to flee from the horror. My point is that Tolkien was incapable of conveying this horror to the reader when the Nine came on stage and so the Nine come across as clownishly ineffective. A weakness of the book for me. The letter reveals what Tolkien intended - ghosts & horror, in his mind they were effective but he couldn't convey it.

There may be deep reason why traditional ghosts have a presence in fixed locations, why ghosts haunt. Having ghosts riding around on horses was a flawed idea because it gives the impression they have some sort of physical presence and if they catch you at the end of a chase they will physically attack you (with swords?). In the letter it is clearly not what Tolkien intended. The modern equivalent of ghosts on horses is ghosts in taxi-cabs chasing victims around a city. Tolkien cocked up with the Ringwraiths.

[sepulchre]

Kent wrote:

My point is that Tolkien was incapable of conveying this horror to the reader when the Nine came on stage and so the Nine come across as clownishly ineffective.

Clownish, I don't agree. Certainly, the scene at Crick Hollow speaks to the fear instilled by the ringwraiths. Could that fear and horror be amplified? Sure, I will agree with you, the accent on the terror they instill could have been portrayed with more gravity. Then again, the narration seems to focus on the heroes and the wilderlands, both of which, remain untouched by the darkness that is the essential nature of the nine.

There may be deep reason why traditional ghosts have a presence in fixed locations, why ghosts haunt. Having ghosts riding around on horses was a flawed...

The ringwraiths do not have a fixed haunt, because they are bound to a lost object. They are essentially extentions of the ring, and effectively its guardians. I think part of the return of nine in the third age, that is their crossing from forgotten shadow into tangible being, has much to do with the terror they instill through sightings and rumors among the average populations of Middle Earth. They, however, have no power over the fearless, heroes. I think Tolkien's letter very much speaks to this.

[geoffrey]

Interesting thread. I had not thought of it before, but I have never felt ghostly fear with the Ringwraiths (as I do, for example, with the ghosts in the stories of M. R. James).

[vladtolenkov]

One thing that I'd like to point out is that it seems to me that for Tolkien landscape was especially important. Aragorn has them make camp at Weathertop for a reason. He knows that the former Numenorean stronghold is still a spirtual stronghold in a sense. He knows the Nine will be weakened by the very place. This is especially true of the scene at the Ford as well. Water is the province of the Valar Ulmo, and Sauron's power is weakened again by the location. Moreover, the Ford is also protected through Elond's magic somehow as well.

In both cases the Nine overcome their weakness/fear because they are SO CLOSE to attaining the enemy's goal. And yes they fail, but the odds are stacked against them operating in lands like the Shire. Meeting them in Minas Morgul would be a whole different story.

That's my take anyway.

[Todd]

I'm not sure you're giving them enough credit. The Nine pretty much did exactly what they wanted to do at Weathertop, that is to stick Frodo with the Morgul blade. What they didn't anticipate was the intervention of the elf and thus were ill-prepared and, in their still weakened state, ill-equipped to ultimately respond successfully.

[Red Baron]

They are also just ghosts of their former selves. They aren't the powerful lords and sorcerers they once were. Each of them might have far surpassed Aragorn in life, but as wraiths they are reduced to mere spies of the dark lord, spreading fear and gathering intelligence.

[geoffrey]

Dec 29, 2013 22:05:36 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

They are also just ghosts of their former selves.

Brilliant!

Or how about, "shadows of the men they once were"?

[Finarvyn]

Dec 29, 2013 11:55:45 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Interesting thread. I had not thought of it before, but I have never felt ghostly fear with the Ringwraiths (as I do, for example, with the ghosts in the stories of M. R. James).

But clearly the movie emphasizes this fear effect. The flapping of cloaks, screams of the Nazgul, other effects designed to startle and/or cause fear in a viewer.

I suspect that Tolkien wasn't trying to tell a "ghost story" but instead a fantasy story that happened to have ghosts. I don't get a ghostly fear from the dead legions scene, either.

[idrahil]

I always found the Barrow Downs and the barrow wights much more terrifying.

[Red Baron]

Dec 30, 2013 16:00:12 GMT -6 idrahil said:

I always found the Barrow Downs and the barrow wights much more terrifying.

When did the prince of Dol Amrath venture so far north? 

[Porphyre]

I remember the first time I read the Fellowship, the first intervention of the ringwraigth (not the "sniffing" on the road, but a far cry in the hills) was the point where the LotR ceases to be a sequel of the Hobbit and becomes something different and scarier.
So I desagree with you , kent, when you say that Tolkien failed to deliver with the Ringwraiths, but maybe it was my (then) young and impressible self.

[Stormcrow]

Dec 28, 2013 17:17:23 GMT -6 kent said:

Peter Jackson emphasised with glaring stupidity in The Fellowship of Ring the ineffectiveness of the Nine Riders as they sought for the hobbits and when they came upon them with Aragorn on Weathertop. Outside of straight comedy, villains don't repeatedly come within hand's reach of the protagonists and fail without inviting ridicule. Of course in the book they don't get so close except at Weathertop, and yet from conversations Ive had with people whose opinions I respect, we agree that Tolkien himself failed to allow the Ringwraiths to live up to their billing as presented by Gandalf in his sketch history. They are in fact Halloween useless. Nine Billowing Black Blouses.

The strength of the Nazgûl waxes and wanes in proportion to the attention that Sauron gives them. When they are searching for "Baggins," all Sauron knows is that some creature called Baggins acquired the ring under the mountains seventy-seven years ago and went to Lake Town. He sends emissaries to Erebor to try to get Baggins, or at least more information. He has also worked out where Baggins may have come from, some land in Eriador called "Shire," and he sends the Nazgûl to see if he's there. Sauron doesn't know where the Ring is; he's fishing for it. When the Nazgûl realize they've found Baggins and he still has the Ring, they give chase—but Sauron doesn't know about this yet, and he doesn't turn his attention to Frodo in time. It's weeks before the Nazgûl make it back to Mordor to be given new shapes, and to report their news to Sauron. The Company doesn't know how much Sauron knows, which is why they're petrified of everything that happens during their trip south: Sauron must be flinging snow at them; Sauron must have sent wargs after them; Sauron has sent crows to spy on them. The fact is that Sauron just doesn't (yet) have the resources to fight against Gondor and besiege Rivendell.

Once Sauron decides to reveal the upgraded Nazgûl to Gondor, his full attention is on them, and their power peaks. They are devastating in battle. It was only the fluke of a hobbit wielding a blade of Westernesse piercing the spells of the Witch-king that took down even one of them. The others remained untouched until the Ring was destroyed.

[cooper]

Wraith for the nazgul in LOTR and death knight for nazgul in return of the king...

[Falconer]

I do find the “Black Riders” of FotR to be terrifying, personally. I guess it’s a matter of opinion.

I will concede the point, though, that LotR is happy-endingish to a fault. None of the main characters die (except Gandalf, who comes back). None of the Free Peoples strongholds fall — Minas Tirith, the Hornburg, Lothlórien, Thranduil’s Halls, Erebor… Oh, I know Sharkey cut down Bilbo’s Party Tree, but even symbolic victories for woe tend to lead to even better things (a Mallorn tree in its place). Overall, I’d say the good guys got off pretty well unscathed.

On the other hand, I know lots of people can’t stand the First Age because it’s pretty much the exact opposite — the good guys die, their strongholds are razed or utterly “defiled,” and when weal gets a victory it’s always symbolic at best (and just leads to worse things). Though, to be fair, I think Tolkien always had a novel-length Tale of Eärendel in mind which was supposed to eclipse all the other stuff put together. It would have been sad, but ultimately would have ended in victory for weal.

[Red Baron]

The lord of the ring dies. I'd say he's a main character.

But even good will suffer. Lady Arwen will die. That would have otherwise been averted. The world will be industrialized, the forests slowly whittled away, and avery protector of the wood will fade. Since the elves have left, the bloodline of kings will slowly weaken once more over generations, after arwen's infusion is diluted.

[Stormcrow]

Dec 31, 2013 17:01:58 GMT -6 Falconer said:

None of the main characters die (except Gandalf, who comes back).

Umm... Boromir? Denethor? Théoden? Saruman? What's your definition of a main character?

The lord of the ring dies.

No, he doesn't. He is reduced to impotence, unable to ever take another shape.

[Falconer]

Jan 1, 2014 8:09:00 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

What's your definition of a main character?

I agree it’s tricky. In investigating who the main character (protagonist) of The Lord of the Rings is, I would argue that it obviously starts out as Frodo, but by the climax it gets more complicated. I would propose:

PRIMARY PLOTLINE
Protagonist: Frodo
Deuteragonist: Sam

SECONDARY PLOTLINE
Protagonist: Aragorn
Deuteragonist: Gimli

TERTIARY PLOTLINE
Protagonist: Gandalf
Deuteragonist: Pippin

Each of the protagonists stands at the center of his own quest. In each case, we have a deuteroganist — a Dr. Watson, if you will; the reader’s proxy through whom we can observe and ask questions of the protagonist — who grows in importance as the protagonist becomes increasingly inaccessible.

I suppose the existence of a quaternary plotline, with Eowyn as protagonist and Merry as deuteroganist, could also be argued. And indeed, one could go down even further down this road, mapping out more “quests” of rapidly diminishing importance — but I don’t think you’ll really find many.

I certainly wouldn’t put Sauron, or Denethor, or Gollum, etc., in the running.

[geoffrey]

I simply consider the following and none other to be main characters of The Lord of the Rings:

Frodo
Sam
Pippin
Merry
Gandalf
Aragorn
Boromir
Gimli
Legolas

In other words, the members of the Fellowship. Let's consider what happens to them at the end:

Frodo is wounded (physically and spiritually) beyond help, so goes over Sea to be healed there.

Sam marries his sweetheart, has 18 children, becomes a leader in his community, and lives happily ever after.

Pippin gets married, has children, becomes a leader in his community, and lives happily ever after.

Merry gets married, has children, becomes a leader in his community, and lives happily ever after.

Gandalf goes over the Sea with his mission accomplished.

Aragorn becomes king, marries a hot elf chick, has children, and lives happily ever after, not dying until he had been king for 120 years.

Boromir gets slain by a horde of orcs.

Gimli and Legolas just kind of hang out for 120 years before going over the Sea, unless I am forgetting something.

Out of the Nine, we have the following:

4 get the girl and live happily ever after
1 is broken
1 is slain
2 just coast along
1 returns to base

That doesn't sound too crazy to me.

[kent]

Dec 31, 2013 14:17:15 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

The strength of the Nazgûl waxes and wanes in proportion to the attention that Sauron gives them.
...
Once Sauron decides to reveal the upgraded Nazgûl to Gondor, his full attention is on them, and their power peaks.

I understand you are trying to make sense of their ineffectiveness in FotR. Do remember they have been active for thousands of years and it is the Witchking alone whom Tolkien singles out for this increase in power for the great war. Regardless, their supposed terrors are well described pre-war many times, for example,

Gandalf in Rivendell says

On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the nine at once.

So my conclusion is that they come across as clownish bunglers because Tolkien couldn't convey the horrific effects he imagined.

[Stormcrow]

Jan 1, 2014 15:11:16 GMT -6 kent said:

I understand you are trying to make sense of their ineffectiveness in FotR. Do remember they have been active for thousands of years

You need to remember that when Tolkien first wrote about Black Riders in his sequel to The Hobbit, he had no idea who they were. He was making it all up as he went.

it is the Witchking alone whom Tolkien singles out for this increase in power for the great war.

Where do you get this from?

[sepulchre]

redbaron wrote:

The lord of the ring dies. I'd say he's a main character.
But even good will suffer. Lady Arwen will die. That would have otherwise been averted. The world will be industrialized, the forests slowly whittled away, and avery protector of the wood will fade. Since the elves have left, the bloodline of kings will slowly weaken once more over generations, after arwen's infusion is diluted.

Stormcrow wrote:

He is reduced to impotence, unable to ever take another shape.

Both well-stated. There is a literary critic who claims Frodo fails to be great, because he is unable to integrate with his others or be met on equal-footing by a love-interest. Heroes are larger than life and from the origins of the word and Homer there is the sense that they are humans who are impelled to exceed the normal range or boundaries of human experience. Thus, the risk is that they don't return to normal life, either through their actions or what befalls them. Frodo having to be taken beyond the boundary of the sea, reminds me of Oedipus being claimed by the gods at the end of Oedipus at Colonus.

[kent]

Jan 2, 2014 1:43:09 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

Jan 1, 2014 15:11:16 GMT -6 kent said:

I understand you are trying to make sense of their ineffectiveness in FotR. Do remember they have been active for thousands of years

You need to remember that when Tolkien first wrote about Black Riders in his sequel to The Hobbit, he had no idea who they were. He was making it all up as he went.

it is the Witchking alone whom Tolkien singles out for this increase in power for the great war.

Where do you get this from?

The point I am making in the OP depends on the fact that the ringwraiths are considered by Gandalf and Aragorn to be powerful and terrifying and described in text as such on several occasions, one of which I quoted. If you have some other theory you'll have to find someone else who is willing to hear it.

[Stormcrow]

Jan 2, 2014 13:41:32 GMT -6 kent said:

If you have some other theory you'll have to find someone else who is willing to hear it.

This speaks volumes.

[Todd]

I still don't understand this view of them being ineffective. They tracked the fellowship from the Shire to Weathertop and then stuck Frodo with the Morgul blade then chased the company to the threshold of Rivendell. Frodo's wound was a mortal one that only the power of Elrond and Co. was (mostly) able to heal. How is that ineffective?

[Stormcrow]

Kent is saying that if the Ringwraiths are so k3wl, how come they don't just blast or hack down Frodo and take the Ring by force? He fails to understand their power.

The Ringwraiths don't have the power to simply knock down all opposition. Their power is in darkness and fear. The darker and more frightening the environment, the more powerful they are. They have little physical power: their bodies are trapped permanently in the spirit-world. This is why they're invisible, why they seem so feeble in the Shire, and why Elrond could destroy their bodies with a flood. They also fear fire, though we're never told why, and fire is used to drive them away at Weathertop and into the flood at the Ford of Bruinen.

During the War of the Ring, the Ringwraiths are not foot-soldiers and they're not tanks; they're scouts, commanders, and demoralizers of the West. In addition to spreading fear, they make use of the Black Breath. They recruit spies and bribe others. Of the Witch-king, Strider says, "All blades perish that pierce that dreadful King": any weapon that harms him is destroyed. "More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth": Frodo's defiance and hope attack his power.

After the attack on Weathertop, Strider wonders why they don't attack again. Gandalf answers this later: they were waiting for Frodo to become a wraith under their control, at which point they would seize the Ring without opposition.

The Ringwraiths are more effective at the Battle of Pelennor Fields than at Weathertop simply because everything was metaphorically darker during the battle. The West had armies that were despairing. At Weathertop, all the wraiths could draw on were the fear of four hobbits and that of the heir of Isildur.

The power of the Ringwraiths is not in brute force; their power is in fear, darkness, and corruption.

[Finarvyn]

Jan 2, 2014 21:33:02 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

The power of the Ringwraiths is not in brute force; their power is in fear, darkness, and corruption.

But this is also true for Gandalf and other beings of great power. (Not sayin' that Gandalf's power is darkness or corruption.) If you look at the power that Gandalf displays, much of it is illusionary. At times Gandalf makes a point by seeming to grow larger and have a booming voice -- not exactly flashbang magic. Somewhere in the Tolkien section of the boards I put up a thread listing Gandalf's spells.

My list looks something like this:
1 Bless
4 Command Person
6 Control Smoke
1 Control Water
7 Enhance Presence
2 Extinguish Flame
9 Flash / Spark of Light
1 Hold Portal
8 Ignite Small Fire
2 Knock / Open Door
3 Loud Noise
6 Staff Light
1 Sunder (Breaking Force)
1 Ventriloquism

Much of Gandalf's power is "smoke and mirrors" stuff, where he seems powerful but doesn't do much. The Nazgul are much the same way.

[waysoftheearth]

Jan 2, 2014 1:43:09 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

You need to remember that when Tolkien first wrote about Black Riders in his sequel to The Hobbit, he had no idea who they were. He was making it all up as he went.

Excerpts from J.R.R.Tolkien's foreword to the second edition of The Lord of The Rings:

It was begun soon after The Hobbit was written and before its publication in 1937; but I did not go on with this sequel, for I wished first to complete and set in order the mythology and legends of the Elder Days, which had then been taking shape for some years.

Then when the 'end' had at last been reached the whole story had to be revised, and indeed largely re-written backwards.