Recommend D&D-like games that aren't retro-clones

[Deleted]

 

The local gaming group I've started playing with is using Pits & Perils as it's ruleset. The author states it is NOT a retro-clone or remotely compatible with these early games, and is not published under the open license. It’s an original, ridiculously easy, system. The most important things that happen in a game are the choices and decisions made by the players. The early games did this well, and this was (is) a big part of their appeal today.

Whilst being somewhat of a OD&D purist I have become enamoured of the D&D-alikes that stray from being slavish clones but do not do all the imagining for me. Especially those that deliver that 'old school experience' despite taking a different path to the cut-n-paste crowd.

If you have played any (and not just read-thru them) I'd be interested in your recommendations.

[Deleted]

Dragon Warriors is oldschool, pretty original, and an 80s fantasy RPG that is in print right now. Interested?

[smokestackjones]

My recommendation? Tunnels and Trolls. It has two basic mechanics (combat and Saving Rolls) that cover pretty much everything a character does, a unique combat mechanic and it's ridiculously easy to run. Plus there's a new edition coming out (Deluxe Tunnels and Trolls) via Kickstarter. In the meantime, DriveThruRPG has a condensed version of the rules for free: rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/54407/Tunnels-%26-Trolls-Free-Rulebook.  You can also easily find used copies on Amazon and eBay.

-SJ

[inkmeister]

I like the look of that Pits and Perils game. In some ways it reminds me of the direction I've taken the D&D game (non-random HP, for example). Very cool!

EDIT: Oh, I think some of the Microlite games were meant to get at the OD&D feel without being D&D - perhaps Microlite 74 is a good place to start? There is also Searchers of the Unknown, but that is more like an approach to OD&D than a stand-alone game, as far as I can tell, but it does away with ability scores (another influence on my game; I generally do without ability scores as well), and makes armor class an important stat for things like stealth and other checks.

[krusader74]

I second smokestackjones's nomination of Tunnels & Trolls. It's the world's second-oldest FRPG, published in 1975. It was conceived as an easier-to-understand D&D, and it definitely lives up to it's design goals. D6s only--no funny dice. Easy chargen--I keep my character sheet on an index card. Group-based combat (i.e., make a roll for each side; the difference is the damage divided among the losing side). Saving rolls cover everything else.

T&T is well suited to solitaire adventures, and there are dozens available for it. I've played a number of these. You can play the first solo adventure, Buffalo Castle (1976), online at the publisher's website. There you will also find rules for chargen and combat.

The game is well supported. In addition to online forums, there's also a free fanzine called TrollZine, that you can download from Flying Buffalo's page at DTRPG. The online store has many solo adventures, the free ruleset from Free RPG Day, and a copy of the 4th edition rules for $4.

Besides the official publisher Flying Buffalo, Inc. (FBI), the game is supported by other publishers, including Peryton and Fiery Dragon, which published the 7.5 edition rules.

I own several editions of the rules, including PDF and dead-tree versions of the latest 7.5 edition rules. Unlike D&D, the T&T rules have changed very little from edition-to-edition over the past 40 years!

T&T's author, Ken St. Andre, known as the "Trollgod," maintains the Trollhala website. He is remarkably approachable, and I have exchanged several emails with him.

[krusader74]

Steve Jackson's (b. 1953 US) The Fantasy Trip (TFT) is also an early entry in the FRPG market. It is extremely rules light. In the first edition, Melee (1977), PCs only had 2 attributes: Strength (ST) and Dexterity (DX). The second release, Wizard (1978), adds a third attribute, Intelligence (IQ). Combat is basically roll 3d6 <= DX to-hit. ST are hit-points. IQ is used for casting magic spells & using certain skills: roll 3d6 <= IQ to succeed. Only d6 are used; no funny dice.

TFT's rules-lite approach resembles Microlite 74 (mentioned above by inkmeister) in that it too only uses the same 3 attributes (STR, DEX, MIND), but M74 uses the 3E/OGL d20 roll-over resolution mechanic, rather than TFT's 3d6 roll-under system.

TFT's rules-light system also resembles the Fighting Fantasy (1982) solo adventures, created by Steve Jackson (b. 1951 UK). FF has only three attributes: STAMINA, SKILL and LUCK. I still play FF solo adventures, now published by Worldweaver as ebooks, on my Amazon Kindle.

When TFT's publisher, Metagaming, went out of business, Jackson couldn't get the rights back, so he went on to create a more elaborate version of the rules--GURPS, which still uses the same 3 attributes and the 3d6 roll-under-attribute mechanic.

You can find out a lot more about Melee & Wizard at this homage website. This site contains all the rules.

Dark City Games publishes an 8-page retro-clone of TFT called Legends that you can get free here.

[jakdethe]

Although later of versions of Basic Role Playing, and Runequest, attempt to take the "roll playing" method, I highly recommend the older versions. In 1E/2E BRP there are very few skills, that subsume the basic mechanics of D&D: Stealth Skills for Surprise, Combat Skills instead of Attack Rolls, etc... All use a simple d% system, derived from the Greyhawk Skill System. The 1st Editions of both games are very old school, in aesthetic and play style. And yes I have played both, actually starting with those systems. I've played Stormbringer, but it's supposed to be along the same lines.

[jeffb]

DCC RPG is not a retro clone.

13th Age

Spellcraft & Swordplay

[Finarvyn]

It's a hard question to answer, since pretty much every RPG out there is in some way inspired and/or influenced by D&D. However...

Metamorphosis Alpha is a great choice, as is Empire of the Petal Throne. Both are simple like OD&D but not at all clones.

[machfront]

Nov 1, 2013 4:27:40 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

It's a hard question to answer, since pretty much every RPG out there is in some way inspired and/or influenced by D&D.

Also in the realm of my thoughts.

Does the OP specifically mean games that very directly take their cue from D&D but do not repeat it's rules? Or....just the very basic, broad concept? Only games of either that have been born in the past few years or do truly old-school games count (like the perfect suggestion of such in Tunnels & Trolls)?

I'd add a +1 for T&T and add Ancient Odysseys: Treasure Awaits! as well as Digital Alchemy's nigh-perfect D&D-esque FUDGE build, Hack-n-Slash.
Perhaps any number of RISUS D&D-inspired games easily found sprawled all over the 'net may count as well, like RISUS: Domino (direct download).

[coffee]

Oct 31, 2013 22:29:11 GMT -6 krusader74 said:

Steve Jackson's The Fantasy Trip (TFT) is also an early entry in the FRPG market. It is extremely rules light. In the first edition, Melee (1977), PCs only had 2 attributes: Strength (ST) and Dexterity (DX). The second release, Wizard (1978), adds a third attribute, Intelligence (IQ). Combat is basically roll 3d6 <= DX to-hit. ST are hit-points. IQ is used for casting magic spells & using certain skills: roll 3d6 <= IQ to succeed. Only d6 are used; no funny dice.

TFT's rules-lite approach resembles Microlite 74 (mentioned above by inkmeister) in that it too only uses the same 3 attributes (STR, DEX, MIND), but M74 uses the 3E/OGL d20 roll-over resolution mechanic, rather than TFT's 3d6 roll-under system.

TFT's rules-light system also resembles the Fighting Fantasy (1982) solo adventures, created by Jackson. FF has only three attributes: ST, DX and Luck (LK). I still play Jackson's FF solo adventures, now published by Worldweaver as ebooks, on my Amazon Kindle.

When TFT's publisher, Metagaming, went out of business, Jackson couldn't get the rights back, so he went on to create a more elaborate version of the rules--GURPS, which still uses the same 3 attributes and the 3d6 roll-under-attribute mechanic.

You can find out a lot more about Melee & Wizard at this homage website. This site contains all the rules.

Dark City Games publishes an 8-page retro-clone of TFT called Legends that you can get free here.

Just wanted to note that Melee/Wizard creator Steve Jackson and Fighting Fantasy creator Steve Jackson are two different guys. The former is American, the latter English.

TFT may have been the first RPG I ever ran, back in the early 80s.

[kesher]

Oct 31, 2013 14:30:46 GMT -6 @relic said:

 

The local gaming group I've started playing with is using Pits & Perils as it's ruleset. The author states it is NOT a retro-clone or remotely compatible with these early games, and is not published under the open license. It’s an original, ridiculously easy, system. The most important things that happen in a game are the choices and decisions made by the players. The early games did this well, and this was (is) a big part of their appeal today.

Whilst being somewhat of a OD&D purist I have become enamoured of the D&D-alikes that stray from being slavish clones but do not do all the imagining for me. Especially those that deliver that 'old school experience' despite taking a different path to the cut-n-paste crowd.

If you have played any (and not just read-thru them) I'd be interested in your recommendations.

Relic, this is just weird--first you turn me on to WHITEHACK, which definitely belongs in this thread, and now you toss out Pits & Perils, which I just stumbled across two days ago! It does look like a pretty awesome game, and I give it a bonus for it's repurposed woodblock aesthetics...

[funkaoshi]

Advanced Fighting Fantasy perhaps? It's a more involved version of the system used in the Fighting Fantasy choose your own adventure books. They are back in print now. I have the old versions from the 90s.

[Azafuse]

I'd say Dungeon World from Sage LaTorra and Adam Koebel (released under Creative Commons) and Torchbearer from Thor Olavsrud and Luke Crane: they're not clones although they both tribute D&D (Torchbearer is openly a lover letter to Basic D&D).

Dungeon World uses the same classes and basic concepts of D&D but the crunch comes from Apocalypse World by D. Vincent Baker, based on the concept of moves (tied to the fiction the move is going to express).

Torchbearer is an hack of Mouse Guard by Luke Crane, and it focuses more on dungeon exploration and resource management (oil/food is consumed according to the time spent in the dungeon with negative consequences for the PCs).

[capvideo]

Oct 31, 2013 14:30:46 GMT -6 @relic said:

Whilst being somewhat of a OD&D purist I have become enamoured of the D&D-alikes that stray from being slavish clones but do not do all the imagining for me. Especially those that deliver that 'old school experience' despite taking a different path to the cut-n-paste crowd.

If you have played any (and not just read-thru them) I'd be interested in your recommendations.

Well, I like Gods & Monsters. It’s our home game, so to speak, so we better like it! Among the ideas was to go back to the basics of archetypes (classes) and then build the more complex classes out of specialties every odd level. So it doesn’t have the proliferation of feats that D&D 3x had, keeping the “classes” relatively simple.

We’ve been playing it for several years now. The rulebook is pretty well frozen now.

[Deleted]

Fabled Lands the RPG is out there, too. It's by the same guys that did DW 2e, and I personally don't like it,
but perhaps someone else might like it better than I did.

Honestly, for a reasonably simple fantasy RPG with a dungeon-heavy focus, I don't think there's anything better than D&D, at the end of the day.

If you up the ante, d20 and Pathfinder do well do the trick, and if you want a different setting, Fading Suns, Alternity, World of Darkness, or even Shadows over Esteren might be worth a look. But it really boils down to personal preferences. The reason I ended up being a DW DM more than, say, an Ars Magica DM has no objective base. I like Jon Hodgson's art, that's why.

[thorswulf]

OK based on the info about Pits & Perils I purchased a copy of it. It arrived today, and I have to say I really like what I see. Even though it uses simple mechanics, it is an incredibly well thought out design. If I were to compare it to anything, I'd call it a cross between the Dungeon Dwellers board games bt Heritage and OD&D. Very rules lite, but with enough variation to keep you interested. Definitely worth the price, too.

[krusader74]

Nov 1, 2013 8:06:15 GMT -6 coffee said:

Just wanted to note that Melee/Wizard creator Steve Jackson and Fighting Fantasy creator Steve Jackson are two different guys. The former is American, the latter English.

TFT may have been the first RPG I ever ran, back in the early 80s.

Thanks for pointing this out! I edited my post to make the distinction between TFT's Steve Jackson (b. 1953 US) and FF's Steve Jackson (b. 1951 UK) clear.

Also, I wanted to point out a current series of blog posts on TFT over at bigballofnofun @ blogspot.com

So far there are 5 posts:

• TFT - Modular System Rules
• TFT - Setting First
• TFT - A World Built For Adventure
• TFT - Tanks
• TFT - The Dump Stat

[krusader74]

Nov 1, 2013 10:13:52 GMT -6 funkaoshi said:

Advanced Fighting Fantasy perhaps? It's a more involved version of the system used in the Fighting Fantasy choose your own adventure books. They are back in print now. I have the old versions from the 90s.

I wanted to draw attention to the Advanced Fighting Fantasy Quickstart at DTRPG. It's free from Arion Games/Cubicle 7. It's only 17 pages.

PCs have the following characteristics: SKILL (=to-hit), STAMINA (=HP), MAGIC (to-hit with spells), MAGIC POINTS, and LUCK (catch-all attribute).

To fight an opponent you roll 2d6 and add your SKILL. (You may have a specialty skill for your weapon, in which case you add it too.) Your opponent does the same. In case of a tie, nobody gets hit. Otherwise, the one with the higher total hits. Damage is resolved by rolling 1d6 and using a lookup table based on the weapon type. Damage is subtracted from stamina.

To cast a spell, 2d6 <= MAGIC succeeds. Either way, subtract the spell cost from your MAGIC POINTS.

LUCK rolls are used where nothing else applies: 2d6 <= LUCK succeeds. Subtract 1 from your LUCK score each time you test your luck. When you reach 0, you've literally run out of luck.

There's also a free fanzine for this system: Fighting Fantazine. There are currently 12 issues available.

I like this system. It's very rules light. It keeps out of the way of roleplaying and story telling. The mechanics work great for solo adventures.

Great recommendation!

[kesher]

Nov 9, 2013 21:10:21 GMT -6 krusader74 said:

Nov 1, 2013 8:06:15 GMT -6 coffee said:

Just wanted to note that Melee/Wizard creator Steve Jackson and Fighting Fantasy creator Steve Jackson are two different guys. The former is American, the latter English.

TFT may have been the first RPG I ever ran, back in the early 80s.

Thanks for pointing this out! I edited my post to make the distinction between TFT's Steve Jackson (b. 1953 US) and FF's Steve Jackson (b. 1951 UK) clear.

Also, I wanted to point out a current series of blog posts on TFT over at bigballofnofun @ blogspot.com

So far there are 5 posts:

• TFT - Modular System Rules
• TFT - Setting First
• TFT - A World Built For Adventure
• TFT - Tanks
• TFT - The Dump Stat

Um, these are awesome! Thanks for posting them!

[benoist]

Palladium Fantasy 1E. The one with the black cover.

RuneQuest, either RQ2, Avalon Hill's RQ3, or the current RuneQuest 6.

Dangerous Journeys if you like rules heavy games, the toolbox aspect of AD&D 1E and want a crapload of stuff to include or not include in your game.

Lejendary Adventures if you want something more rules light and free wheeling.

Hackmaster 4e seems to please a lot of old schoolers - that game is on my list to check out.

Harnmaster if you want something really medieval-ish, gritty, with deadly combat.

DCC RPG if you want something really gonzo, like AD&D gone crazy rock and roll screaming to be played.

[Deleted]

Excellent recommendations - I have played a few of these over the years but it's always good to be reminded and I must say I'm intrigued by Torchbearer.

Just so you know, Pits & Perils, the ruleset mentioned in the original post, is now available as a PDF from DrivethruRPG

[verhaden]

Nov 1, 2013 10:23:12 GMT -6 Azafuse said:

I'd say Dungeon World from Sage LaTorra and Adam Koebel (released under Creative Commons) and Torchbearer from Thor Olavsrud and Luke Crane: they're not clones although they both tribute D&D (Torchbearer is openly a lover letter to Basic D&D).

Dungeon World uses the same classes and basic concepts of D&D but the crunch comes from Apocalypse World by D. Vincent Baker, based on the concept of moves (tied to the fiction the move is going to express).

Torchbearer is an hack of Mouse Guard by Luke Crane, and it focuses more on dungeon exploration and resource management (oil/food is consumed according to the time spent in the dungeon with negative consequences for the PCs).

I've only recently delved into Dungeon World -- browsed through the rules, the SA thread, and a few 'guide' PDF's -- but it was enough to plop down some cash for the paperback from IPR. I haven't played a game of it yet, but I have to say, even for those who would never play it in a million years, any referee would be doing themselves a favor by browsing through the GM guide. It codifies a lot of things we should all be doing anyway.

Hell, the 2d6+MOD mechanic (10+ yes, 9-7 yes but, 6- no) could easily be cribbed for skills, spell casting, etc. in your OD&D game...

I expect that I'll be making my own concise version of the rules and classes in the next coming months.

[Zenopus]

Nov 13, 2013 15:58:26 GMT -6 verhaden said:

Hell, the 2d6+MOD mechanic (10+ yes, 9-7 yes but, 6- no) could easily be cribbed for skills, spell casting, etc. in your OD&D game...

That's very similar to the 2d6 "Random Actions by Monsters" roll in OD&D, Vol 3, pg 12: 2-5 negative, 6-8 uncertain, 9-12 positive, with modifiers for bribes, fear alignment. The Reaction Roll in Vol 1 is similar, just adding additional categories for the extremes (2 & 12).

[verhaden]

Yeah, 2d6+MOD isn't a new mechanic my any means, but I'm enthused by the context in which it's used. It just clicked and I have some ideas that just snowballed from it.

[Azafuse]

Nov 13, 2013 15:58:26 GMT -6 verhaden said:

I haven't played a game of it yet, but I have to say, even for those who would never play it in a million years, any referee would be doing themselves a favor by browsing through the GM guide. It codifies a lot of things we should all be doing anyway.

I agree: Fronts and other stuff simplify greatly the DM's job.

Nov 13, 2013 20:36:52 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

That's very similar to the 2d6 "Random Actions by Monsters" roll in OD&D, Vol 3, pg 12: 2-5 negative, 6-8 uncertain, 9-12 positive, with modifiers for bribes, fear alignment. The Reaction Roll in Vol 1 is similar, just adding additional categories for the extremes (2 & 12).

IMHO the whole mechanic digs even into Chainmail's Spell Complexity: you have an immediate effect (10+), a delayed effect (7-9) and a failure (6-).

[funkaoshi]

Thanks for pointing out Pits and Perils. I ended up grabbing the PDF. Very cool game.

[Mike]

I picked up Pits and Perils after receiving the Drivethru newsletter. I nearly didn't, I thought it was a bit over priced and was pretty sure I'd seen it all done before.

I'm glad to say I was wrong. I'm a tireless dabbler in rule systems but at this stage, I can't find a rule I'd do differently.

I love the fact that HITS negate the need for armour class - a tough creature has lots of hit points; whether it's tough because it's heavily armoured or, fast and hard to hit is a matter for the narrative not the rules.

I'm looking forward to seeing more from the author.

[Falconer]

Allow me a bit of a tangent.

Lately I find I *really* dislike running more than one D&D-like ruleset. The little differences really throw me. Like whether a Thief can use a bow, or how much damage a healing potion cures. Don’t get me wrong: I have no problem house-ruling the things that matter to me, but I’m really not a big rules junkie, so 95% of the rules don’t really bother me. That’s the problem with most D&D variants: The things they changed are things that matter to other people, not necessarily the things that matter to me. So I’m much happier just using the same set of books for everything.

I’ve found my go-to non-D&D game in RuneQuest 2e. There’s just very little overlap with the D&D rules. So my brain can switch over to a completely different mode, and I don’t get confused. A game of RQ doesn’t play out 100% differently from a game of D&D, but there is a different feel, more ancient/mythological and less dark ages/metal. The game rules have different strengths and weaknesses from D&D. I like that, because it means when we switch back to D&D, its limitations are easier to accept and its strengths really shine.

[Vile Traveller]

I can dig Falconer's tangent. I still get confused by Pathfinder because I picked up d20 via D&D 3.0E, which leaves me with two iterations of slight changes to the system that regularly throw me during play. That's why, no matter how cool I find things like LotFP or DCC or LL, I won't play them because it just messes with my head (especially as I'm play testing BLUEHOLME™).

I suspect RQ2 will go the same way once I get back to GLYPHMASTER™, for the same reasons.

Now, back to the topic.