Not Differentiating Spells by Difficulty

[inkmeister]

What if, instead of breaking spells into separate spell complexity levels (as Gygax puts it, a "somewhat subjective determination"), like Men and Magic does, all spells were potentially available from the beginning of the game and not differentiated by complexity?

I could see where such an approach would allow for a simplified spell listing by getting rid of duplicates that mainly serve to up the power of a lower level version. Spells could be slightly re-written to allow for variation in effectiveness based on the caster level, much like how spells like Fireball already work. Charm person would improve with level, for instance.

This approach could be paired with a system others have mentioned (I think Fin and Verhaden in particular) in which magic users can memorize a number of spells equal to their level, with no duplicates.

Thoughts welcome.

[Porphyre]

Easy for the damage-dealing spelle (fire ball, lightening) with damage dice equal to level.

For "effect" spells, how would you see it? Make the range/area of action proportionnal of level? Or the number of HD of creatures affected?

[inkmeister]

Right, Porphyre, roughly along those lines. Let's envision a telekinesis spell; we could imagine that a more powerful sorcerer could levitate more weight and at further distance with such a spell. Or a spell that allows the caster to fly could be written to allow higher level casters the ability to fly further, faster, and longer.

I started thinking about this idea when RedBaron (who has a lot of cool ideas) mentioned breaking the spells into fewer tiers in the interest of making magic users more powerful, like those of the Dying Earth series. I don't necessarily share the goal of making magic users more powerful, but I do like the idea that magic users can immediately tap into some of the most awesome effects early on, but not necessarily with a great deal of efficacy.

[Deleted]

You don't actually need to undo the regular spells-per-day. Just have each spell have a different effect based on what level of spell is used to cast it. So a 5th level magic-user can cast one spells at "third level" of effect, two at 2nd etc. Each spell could have various effects based one what spell level is used. Forex a fireball might to 1d6 at first level, 1d6/level to one person at 2nd and 1d6/level to an area at 3rd.

Doing it this way won't affect the balance of the class and still works with the regular spells. Some more exotic spells might only work at higher levels, for instance. It is going to be a tedious chore to come up with all the various effects for all the various spells.

[crusssdaddy]

I think there's two ways to approach it: each spell grows in potential effect as the caster gains levels, or the likelihood of a catastrophic f***-up decreases as the caster gains in levels. In the first case, a 1st level M-U can cast Move Earth but the effect will be equivalent to creating a sand castle. In the second case, a 1st level M-U can cast Move Earth but there's a high likelihood of ending up buried alive.

EDIT: I think combining those two is the way Harry Potter does it?

[llenlleawg]

Oct 3, 2013 9:26:01 GMT -6 crusssdaddy said:

I think there's two ways to approach it: each spell grows in potential effect as the caster gains levels, or the likelihood of a catastrophic f***-up decreases as the caster gains in levels. In the first case, a 1st level M-U can cast Move Earth but the effect will be equivalent to creating a sand castle. In the second case, a 1st level M-U can cast Move Earth but there's a high likelihood of ending up buried alive.

I rather like this idea. Let MUs learn spells of any level, if they spend the time, money, etc. to research them, but let there be a real, and quite potentially gruesome or catastrophic penalty for casting at too far a level below the "appropriate" one. This allows leaving the spell definitions as they are, but coming up with suitable chance for failure.

[Porphyre]

Epées & Sorcelleries (snorri's pseudo-clone)uses ranges& durations proportional to the sorceror's level; but effects are pretty standard.

[Porphyre]

Epées & Sorcelleries (snorri's pseudo-clone)uses ranges& durations proportional to the sorceror's level; but effects are pretty standard.

[Red Baron]

Scaling magic by level is just as prohibitive and rule heavy as divvying spells up by level.

If you really want to have magic be a powerful force than don't place any limits at all. The restricting factors should be that potent spells are closely guarded creations of a single or few scattered powerful sorcerers. Components should be almost prohibitively rare and expensive, like the slime trail of some monstrous alien deity. The risk of casting such spells should be severe to those without knowledge of a multitude of protective wards and cantraps.

[inkmeister]

Once again, let me say, I really like how you think, Red Baron.

[waysoftheearth]

I'm pretty sure that BTB magic-users can already cast spells of any spell level from scrolls.

One might also note that, BTB, high level spells scrolls are fantastically cheap to create (what is it... 100 gp per spell level?) The limiting factors are only who can create scrolls (OD&D says -- I think -- only a "Wizard" can pen a spell scroll, while Holmes says any magic-user can2), and the time required; being either a week or a week per spell level.

Personally, I don't see any genuine need for all spells to "scale" with the level of the magic-user. It's okay that some magic spells are simply more/less potent than others.

Oct 3, 2013 7:48:44 GMT -6 inkmeister said:

a system others have mentioned (I think Fin and Verhaden in particular) in which magic users can memorize a number of spells equal to their level, with no duplicates.

I do this in my games also, although I limit the spell level which can be memorised to the magic-user's level. Yep, so that implies that a 3rd level m-u can memorise fireball. With many PCs never making it to even 4th level, why save the best spells 'til (much) later?

[alcyone]

You might just level everyone up to where all of the spells are available, too, if that's the actual power level of your game.

[Stormcrow]

In GURPS, spells are not organized by level, but by prerequisites. Before one can cast an Explosive Fireball, one must learn Fireball. Before one can cast Fireball, one must have Magery 1 (magical talent) and must have learned Create Fire and Shape Fire. To learn Create Fire, one needs Ignite Fire or Seek Fire; to learn Shape Fire, one needs Ignite Fire.

These aren't organized in spell tiers, as in, say, Rolemaster. There are spell prerequisite charts for easily determining what you need for a given spell.

And that's just the basic magic system. A common alternative is "ritual magic." First, a basic magic spell is needed, like Thaumatology, Ritual Magic, Symbol Drawing, Religious Ritual, or Theology. Next, a skill representing a spell college (school) is learned, e.g., Fire Spells or Knowledge Spells. The caster may now cast any spell in that college, with a penalty equal to the spell's prerequisite count, which is a cumulative total of the number of prerequisites the spell would have in the basic spell rules. The wizard may learn any spell as a technique (a sub-skill that buys off penalties to a skill) to remove the prerequisite penalty or even add to his college skill. With this system, therefore, any mage can attempt to cast any spell, but without appropriate skills there will be a massive penalty and a good chance of critical spell failure.

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy even mimics D&D spell levels: clerics are given a spell list organized by Magery level, and may learn any spell of their own Magery level or less.

GURPS has many other spell systems available. Many of them are given an entire book...

[peterlind]

I like this idea. At first level, fireball is just a small ball of flame but by reaching 5th level, it has a burst radius. . .