Your Fifth Class

[peterlind]

If you were starting over with OD&D, and you have decided to use the Fighter, Magic-User, Cleric, and Thief classes, what would be your fifth class? For my answer, it would be a non-spellcasting, woodsman-type class. So here is my take on the question, and would like to get your thoughts. . . . And then, assuming you want to keep your number of classes as low as possible, what would be your 6th class then? And so forth . . .

HUNTRESS/HUNTSMAN

From ancient times past, the woodsfolk have looked to the Huntress, the goddess with the bow and arrow, for favor and protection before embarking on a hunt for wild game. The Huntress is first and foremost a hunter who glories in the chase; the hunt for the prey. The Huntress is a female heroine who has devoted herself to the Huntress, the goddess of the wild hunt. As a part of her training, she gains skill in archery, animal handling, woodcraft, hunting, and tracking.

A character of this class may also be male, being called a huntsman. A huntsman is typically a woodsman or forester who is in the employ of a local nobleman. Rarely, a royal huntsman will be in the service of a king. The huntsman is trained to assist the nobility in all ways as they go forth to hunt in the deep woodlands of the land. While the huntsman will assist the nobility to track down the prey, it is expected that the noble will be allowed to do the actual slaying of the prey.

Alignment: Any
Prime Requisite: Dex. Bonus XP per Thief.
Other Attributes: Con 9+
Fighting Ability: As Cleric.
XP: As Fighter.
HP: d6.
Weapons: Any.
Armor: Up to Leather. No Shields.
Special Abilities: Huntresses have the following special abilities:

Animal Handling. All hunters first learn the care and keeping of animals used by Lords in the hunt, particularly their hounds, horses, and fowl.

Archery. Huntresses are skilled archers. Due to their accuracy and ability to target vital areas, Huntresses gain +1 to hit and +1 to damage with all bows at first level. This ability is effective against targets within short range. For every 4 levels gained, this bonus increases by +1 to hit and damage. Note that the damage bonus does not apply against targets that do not have vital areas, such as golems or undead. In addition, all ranges for bows are extended by 50%.

Level of Huntress Bonus “To Hit” and Damage with Bows
1-4 +1
5-8 +2
9-12 +3
Etc.

Camouflage. While in natural surroundings, huntresses may hide themselves in the brush and foliage of the wilderness as a thief hides in shadows. As Thief’s Hide in Shadows.

Find/Remove Snares and Pits. Huntresses have the ability to find, remove, or set snares or pits in wilderness areas. As Thief’s Find/Remove Traps.

Riding. Huntresses must train in the use of horses while hunting and scouting. The horses commonly used for the purpose are known as “coursers.” This is skill is sometimes referred to as “horsemanship.”

Scouting. Huntresses are trained as scouts to detect ambushes and those that would seek to hide or camouflage themselves in the wild. As Thief’s Detect Noise.

Stalking. Huntresses have the ability to move with stealth in the wilderness as a thief moves silently. As Thief’s Move Silently.

Tracking. Huntresses have the ability to Track as per Rangers.

Woodland Survival. Huntresses are expert in all modes of survival in temperate wilderness, particularly in woodlands. This skill includes the ability to forage for vegetables and herbs , to hunt for large game, trap small game, fish in rivers and lakes, and to identify flora and fauna. This skill is sometimes referred to as “woodmanship.”

Level Titles:
1. Kennel-Keeper
2. Groom
3. Apprentice Huntress / Assistant Huntsman
4. Huntress / Huntsman
5. Stalker
6. Trapper
7. Falconer
8. Master Falconer
9. Hunter
10. Huntmistress / Huntmaster

[Deleted]

I'd use a sorcerer as in 3e - i.e., someone with highly intuitive, raw magical abilities.

[cleverkobold]

Both are good ideas; though I would go with a more sage-like class. Someone who isn't particularly capable in combat or in exploration, but with lot of knowledge skills, bonus languages, and the general ability to get the party out of lots of sticky situations.

Minor rant: Why would 3e name a class with innate magical power a sorcerer? The name doesn't really seem to fit; at least to me, sorcerer brings up images of the ancient occultist stooped over a mouldering tome which he has studied his entire life to gain its power. The class itself is fine, but I'd call it a mage, or a wildcaster or something. Minor rant over.

[Vile Traveller]

Well, my fifth class is the witch.

[jcstephens]

I'd have a Scientist class,as a counterpart to the Magic-user. Since in my world magic is inherently Chaotic, science would be inherently Lawful. Of course, just as there are Lawful Wizards, there are also Chaotic Doctors and Professors. And we all know what THAT means...

[snorri]

Well, I accepted a Centaur - in a groupe with a fighter, a druid (as par BECMI companion set, Ie a cleric with a few variants spells) and an elf (B/X style). Normaly, I wouldn't allow a 4-leged crearyre, but the player was 7 year old. he asked " a sagitarius", and I understood it was, like in astrology, a centaur with a bow. So he got a centaur cub named Sagitarius

[JMiskimen]

Maybe I'm just too liberal a Referee, but I allow all of the early Dragon Magazine/Strategic Review classes (Ranger, Bard, Illusionist, Witch, Alchemist, Berzerker, Samurai, Ninja, Healer.) If a player is jazzed to play an alternative class, I don't necessarily mind him giving it a whirl, though I do frown on Anti-paladins in group play. One of the more unusual choices that worked well was a Dragon Magazine based Neanderthal character. I also allow a few White Dwarf Classes such as the Houri, Elementalist, and one time, just for my 9-year old son, a Werebear.

[Porphyre]

A lawful were-bear , maybe...

[JMiskimen]

Of course ...

[aldarron]

Sept 22, 2013 0:17:14 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

Well, my fifth class is the witch.

ditto that. Half MU, half cleric.

[Zenopus]

The fifth and sixth classes, whatever they are, should have CON and CHR-based prime requisites. Six attributes, six classes. Ranger (or Monk) and Bard would probably work well for these.

[premmy]

If I were to do what's postulated by the OP, just as an excercise, my 5th class would be a "party face" type of character. Consider the job division system as it pertains to acquiring treasure:

Fighter - overcome any fight-oriented obstacles to get to the treasure.
Thief - overcome any non-fight-oriented obstacles to get to the treasure.
Cleric - keep everyone alive while the above two are being done.
Magic User - shore up whichever skill set the party is momentarily lacking in by judicious use of spells.

The obvious question is: who gets to do stuff WITH THE TREASURE ITSELF?

Hence, the new class would have the following skills:
- Appraise treasure, at higher levels have some sort of ability to partially or completely identify magical items.
- Talk to people. This would be the specialist class for hiring henchmen, negotiating passage, getting better deals while trading and general having wilderness and dungeon encounters not be "hostile reaction, enemy attacks immediately".
- Organising stuff. Anyone can hire a few wagons and a dozen caravan guards to ferry home the dragon's hoard, but this guy is the one who makes sure the wagon's axle doesn't break in the middle of the swamp, the party follows the optimal path through the wilderness and the guards don't run away with the loot.


Having said that, un my own reworking I haven't actually kept the original four classes intact, so it went in a different way from the get-go.

[cleverkobold]

Sept 22, 2013 14:37:40 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

A lawful were-bear , maybe...

That would be fun.

[Vile Traveller]

Sept 22, 2013 15:17:26 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Sept 22, 2013 0:17:14 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

Well, my fifth class is the witch.

ditto that. Half MU, half cleric.

Pretty much, although with quite a lot of inspiration from the early Dragon Magazine witches. Able to brew potions in a similar manner to the way the Holmes magic-user scribes scrolls.

Sept 22, 2013 16:48:33 GMT -6 premmy said:

If I were to do what's postulated by the OP, just as an excercise, my 5th class would be a "party face" type of character.

Interestingly, in a Pathfinder game I play a sorcerer who pretty much fills this role due to his great Charisma (he's not entirely by-the-book because the referee allowed me to swap out Knowledge (Arcana) as a class skill and substitute Diplomacy instead). It's been quite an eye-opener how much additional gaming potential that opens up, and how much it improves the party's loot conversion, intelligence gathering and political influence. None of the other players are left out, either, they have plenty of fun putting their characters' feet into their mouths!

Perhaps a class that emphasises a high Charisma would be good for this role. In BLUEHOLME™ the witch is the class with Charisma as a prime requisite, but if I can wax heretical for a moment - what if the witch had Wisdom as the prime requisite (the "wise woman/man" model), and clerics changed to Charisma for their prime requisite? I could see that working very well in a quasi-medieval setting where witches are wise but keep a low profile, while clerics practice their public speaking and personal persuasion in the course of spreading the faith.

Interesting discussion!

[snorri]

Mixing the lawful werebear and the CON prime requisite could lead to a nice kind of Barbarian / berkserker / beornid class, with outdoor survival aptitudes and full shapechanging at name level - or at 6th fot he hd.

[Finarvyn]

I don't really have a 5th class. I either play with the "core four" or I open up all AD&D-style options (Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Illusionist, Assassin, etc., but not Healer, Jester, or other strange ones from the Dragon).

[tombowings]

For me, if I was to rewrite Men & Magic, first, I would drop the cleric (and not miss it at all). Second, I would write up classes for:

1. Fighter
2. Mage
3. Thief
4. Ranger
5. Bard (Jack of All Trades style)

[scottenkainen]

What I want to do with my next campaign is limit character creation to the four main classes -- to make sure that someone is playing each of them -- at 1st level and then, at 4th level, allow PCs to switch to one sub-class (cleric -> druid, fighter -> ranger, magic-user -> illusionist, thief -> assassin), sort of like prestige classes. So those are my "fifth" classes.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

[Porphyre]

Sept 23, 2013 1:46:56 GMT -6 snorri said:

Mixing the lawful werebear and the CON prime requisite could lead to a nice kind of Barbarian / berkserker / beornid class, with outdoor survival aptitudes and full shapechanging at name level - or at 6th fot he hd.

Precisely. 

[Porphyre]

Sept 22, 2013 15:17:26 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Sept 22, 2013 0:17:14 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

Well, my fifth class is the witch.

ditto that. Half MU, half cleric.

To me, this niche is already occupied by the druid . 

A witch falls in either of three catagories:
-the "sorceress" is mostly a magic User
-the "wise woman" is kind of a druid, maybe with emphasis on the herbal lore
-the "wicked witch" is essentially a monster like the different varieties of hags. 

[peterlind]

Good stuff, all. I like the idea of starting with the core 4 classes and then telling the players that they can use any of these classes, or propose to me a new class (i.e. I am considering a "clean slate" approach that effectively removes the Paladin, Monk, Assassin, Druid, Ranger, Bard, and Illusionist unless a player wants to work with me on a character concept similar to those classes). From what I remember reading, some of these classes originally came about in a similar fashion, with the player proposing a class idea to the GM and the player working with the GM to create the class whole-cloth. So I am trying to figure out what is the minimum of number of classes needed to cover the bases. These classes would need to be broad, archetypal classes that can serve as
"building blocks" for variant classes and sub-classes. From your answers . . .

- A druid or witch type. There is no dedicated "neutral" or "nature-based" spellcaster.

- a "CON"-based character. A hardy adventurer type, perhaps the Barbarian/Berserker, a Artificer/Smith-type.(a secondary class ideally suited to dwarves), or a hunter/ranger type.

- a "CHA" based character. A Bard, perhaps a Thief/Illusionaist variant (i.e. Mountebank/Charlatan), a Paladin/Knight/Noble (i.e. natural leader) type character.

[oldkat]

I'm with Fin on this one.

[strangebrew]

I would be willing to allow pretty much any class, including supplements, Best of the Dragon, Arduin, the internet, etc. As long as it increases the fun quotient.

It would be fun to have five classes: Fighting-man, Cleric, Magic-User, Thief, and Random. If a player chooses "Random" then they roll a d20 or d30 or whatever on a table made up of all the other classes from secondary sources. They might end up with a techno from Arduin, a Ranger from SR/BotD#1, or a Ghost, Mule, or Octopus from Michael Curtis' blog, etc.

[Red Baron]

Sept 23, 2013 7:04:30 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

What I want to do with my next campaign is limit character creation to the four main classes -- to make sure that someone is playing each of them -- at 1st level and then, at 4th level, allow PCs to switch to one sub-class (cleric -> druid, fighter -> ranger, magic-user -> illusionist, thief -> assassin), sort of like prestige classes. So those are my "fifth" classes.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

The problem with this is although a fighting man can become a ranger, a cleric can't just abandon their patron and go off to pray to the earth instead.

Instead I'd suggest making the druid and cleric subclasses of the magic user (as they reach Elric power and gain a demonic patron, or choose to go off and become the wizard of the woods). 

[peterlind]

Would you really let a Werebear in your game? Are you sure? They are immune to normal weapons . . ..

Alignment: Lawful or Neutral
Prime Req.: Constitution or Strength?
Exp. Progression: As Fighter
Hit Dice: As Fighter
Fighting Ability: As Fighter
Saves: As Fighter

Abilities (when in were-form):

Movement Rate: 9

Natural Weapons: Claw/Claw/Bite = 1-3/1-3/2-8. At 2nd level, gain ability to "Hug" opponent if hit with 2 claws for 2-16 damage.

Bear Hide: Base AC of 4 at 1st level. Gain +1 AC per 3 levels.

Lycanthropic Protection: At 4th level, become immune to normal weapons, being struck only by silver or magical weapons.


Did I miss something? How would you improve this?

[scottenkainen]

Sept 23, 2013 18:41:48 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

The problem with this is although a fighting man can become a ranger, a cleric can't just abandon their patron and go off to pray to the earth instead.

[snipped]

That's monotheistic thinking. The cleric reveres specific gods in the pantheon, while the druid reveres nature spirits in the same pantheon. If it's the same pantheon, you should be able to switch from one focus to the other without penalty.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

[Red Baron]

I tend to think of druids not worshipping gods, but the earth itself, as a chaotic process which has developed methods and order to itself over time in a delicate balance, which everything under the sun is both part of and trying to screw up. The closest they have to godlike beings would be the finnish or native american mythoses where messikammen the bear or coyote are prominent figures, and more symbols of natures different qualities, and those of humans, than actual figures. They revere how complex and fragile yet strong and adaptive the earth is, not any one deity.

Clerics on the other hand devote their lives to the service of a single patron, who, if they are part of a pantheon, are likely jealous of and feuding with the other gods in their pantheon. These gods are actual beings, not abstract concepts that the druids follow.

This is my mental image of a druid by the way, assisting the natural prairie fire cycle with his fireballs.

[Porphyre]

@ peterlind: as snorri said, I would limit the shape-changing ability until it reaches "name level" i-e 8 HD.

Until then, shape-change should be limited: either once a day, or only by night.
I would also add some kind of "unvoluntary shape-shifting " the character could resist (save against magic) not to change in embarassing situations.

[hareton]

Can you describe what Healer class was about? I want to make modified priest that can't use armor and fights with a staff only, but give him something else for balance, like more spell slots.

[JMiskimen]

Sept 23, 2013 20:42:24 GMT -6 peterlind said:

Would you really let a Werebear in your game? Are you sure? They are immune to normal weapons . . ..

We handled it as per the White Dwarf Article, which said anytime a single blow by a non-silver, non-magic weapon would inflict sufficient hits to kill the werebear, it dies. Also, any non-human with more than 5 HD is considered to be a magic weapon for purposes of hitting the werebear. The reason for these restrictions (aside from limiting the power of the character) is that the blow kills the creature before there is time for its natural powers to counteract the wound.

The class also was limited in power in increments of Hit Dice, Damage done and Armor class per level, which capped out at 8th level. The class was also prohibited from using Magic items.