Spell Duration Turns

[waysoftheearth]

There seems to be some contention about what a spell duration "turn" is.

In terms of dungeon exploration and combat, U&WA tells us definitively:

it takes ten minutes to move about two moves... Two moves constitute a turn

(U&WA p8)

and

There are ten rounds of combat per turn.

(U&WA p8)


So the text recognises "turns" and "rounds" as distinct things.

The term "melee round" occurs elsewhere in the text too...


Trolls: "beginning the third melee round after one is hit it will begin to repair itself." (M&T p8)

Dragons: "Sleeping Dragons may be attacked with a free melee round by the attacker and +2 on hit dice for chances of hitting." (M&T p12)

"Each round of melee the number of points scored in hits is ratioed over the total number the Dragon has" (M&T p12)

"a check is then made to see whether he will bite or use his breath weapon during the second melee round." (M&T p13)

Lycanthropes: "If the young are attacked the female adult will fight at triple value for four melee rounds" (M&T p14)



However, the term "turn" is used liberally throughout the 3LBBs

In reference to movement speeds:

The character would move at the speed of an Armored Footman (6"/turn).(M&M p15)
Fly: fly at a speed of up to 12"/turn. (M&M p25)
Cloudkill: Movement: 6"/turn (M&M p30)
Move Earth: terrain affected will move at the rate of 6" per turn (M&M p31)
Treants: cause it to move 3" per turn
Earth Elementals: move but 6" per turn
Fire Elementals: move up to 12" per turn
Water Elementals: move at a rate of 18" per turn in water
Potion of Speed: allowing an encumbered man to move at 6"/turn, a plate armored man to move at 12" and so on.
Broom of flying: allows the owner to fly at Dragon speed (24"/turn).
Flying carpet: carries up to 3 persons at a speed of 18"/turn, while one occupant will allow it to move at 30"/turn.
Swimming speed is 3" per turn.
if the ship is moving at "slow" oared speed or under 15" per turn
Mermen: Swimmers will travel 15" per turn,
Nixies: These creatures operate only in fresh water moving 9" per turn
The Dragon Turtle moves only 9" per turn. ... cannot fly and moves at 3" per
turn on land.
Giant Leeches: ... move at 6" per turn.
Crocs move 15" per turn in water, 9" per turn on land.
Giant Snakes: Moving at a speed of 20" per turn
Giant Octopi and Giant Squids ... move at 9" and 12" per turn
Giant Crabs: They travel 6" per turn.
Giant Fish: Moving at 30" to 50" per turn

(Even these basic statements might be ambiguous in the context of underworld exploration, for U&WA clearly states that there are two moves per turn, so where is says x" per turn it presumably means x" per move).



In reference to time periods:

Confusion: Confused creatures will attack the Magic-User's party (dice score 2-5), stand around doing nothing (6-8), or attack each other (9-12). Roll each turn. (M&M p27)

Transmute Rock to Mud: The spell takes effect in one turn (M&M p28)

Move Earth: The spell takes one turn to go into effect(M&M p31)

Bless: During any turn the prospective recipients of a Bless are not in combat (M&M p32)

Trolls: Regeneration is at the rate of 3 hit points per turn.

Vampires: They regenerate during combat as do Trolls ... at the rate of three hit points per turn.

Dragons: <had> the attackers survived they would have subdued the Red Dragon that turn.

Purple Worms: In six turns the swallowed creature will be dead. In twelve turns it will be totally digested and irrecoverable.

Air Elementals: Forming a whirlwind requires one full turn as does dissolving it

Ochre Jelly: causes one die of damage per turn it is in contact with exposed flesh

Black Pudding: eat away ... armor so that it will fall-away next turn.

Green Slime: sticks to flesh and penetrates it in one turn

Grey Ooze: does two dice of damage to exposed flesh for every turn

Giant Leeches: a hit means that ... they have attached themselves, and every two turns they will drain one life energy level.

Giant Snakes: cause them to suffer 10% per turn due to constriction.

Curses: Disease, fatal in 3 turns unless healed

EXTRA ORDINARY SWORD ABILITY
Healing (1 point/6 turns or 6 points/day)
1-4 Times Normal Strength for 1-10 Turns Employable Once/Day

Ring of mammal control: One turn after the potion is consumed the party so doing can control from 3-18 small animals

Ring of weakness: making him weaker at a rate of 10%/turn

Ring of regeneration: recover damage at the rate of 1 point/turn

Ring of x-ray vision: A 1" x 1" section can be viewed during 1 turn.

Snake staff: rendering him helpless if mansized, or preventing counter-attack otherwise, for 1-4 turns.

Staff of Wizardry, Web: Giants and similarly powerful creatures can break through them in two turns... A Flaming Sword will slash through them in one turn.

Elemental control items: All are rather bulky and require one turn to set up or store away if they are carried with an expedition. They will summon the Elemental in but one turn.

Horn of Blasting: deafened for one turn.

Pit Trap: would only mean about one turn of time to clamber out, providing the character had spikes or associates to pull him out (U&WA p5)

Tricks & Traps: doors remain shut fast for a period of several turns (U&WA p6)

Two moves constitute a turn, except in flight/pursuit situations where the moves/turn will be doubled (U&WA p8)

Time must be taken to rest, so one turn every hour must be spent motionless

ESP'ing will take but a quarter turn, while searching a ten foot section of wall for secret passages will equire a full turn.

There are ten rounds of combat per turn.

At the end of every turn the referee will roll a six-sided die to see if a "wandering monster" has been encountered. (U&WA p10)

REF: This <stowing treasure in packs> will require; four turns.

Most of these clearly imply 10 minutes turns. A few of them are, perhaps, less certain, but could be read as 10 minute turns just as easily as "1 minute turns" (a concept which doesn't otherwise appear).


In Reference to Wilderness Exploration:

Each move will constitute one day. Each day is considered a turn.
Lost Parties: There is a chance of being lost, the chance depending on the type of terrain the party begins its turn upon.
Wandering Monsters: At the end of each day (turn) the referee will check to see if a monster has been encountered
Wilderness Pursuit: For each hex moved in pursuit, a party must spend one-half day resting (remember, a day equals one turn).

In Reference to Aerial Combat:
Aerial Combat, Playing Area: Counters numbered in 1" increments can be prepared, and the appropriate one be placed with the unit when the turn is finished, thus indicating height in inches.
Aerial Combat, Written Orders: Firing missiles is always allowable at the end of a turn unless the firer is meleed
Bombing: Bombing runs must be in a straight line for the whole turn of movement

In Reference to Naval Combat:
Naval Combat, Oared Movement: The number of turns that a stroke can be kept up is based on the fatigue factor.
Naval Combat, Wind Force and Direction: a 10% chance per turn of shipping water
Naval Combat, Ramming:
there is a 25% chance that it is holed below the waterline and will sink in 3-18 turns unless patched.
Patching a hole below the waterline requires 5 turns of work by ten men, and there is a 25% chance the job will not hold, requiring another five turns to replace.
Naval Combat, Shearing Oars Off: A ship with sheared oars will be dead in the water for three turns
Naval Combat, Grappling: Allow three grappling attempts per ship to be made during any turn
Naval Combat, Boarding: For every three feet of deck space parallel to the ship to be boarded one man per turn can board.
it would take ten men an entire turn to break it <a shipboard door> down.
it would take a man with a sword three turns to cut a piece of rigging, or an anchor rope, while a giant would tear it apart in a single turn.
Command Control: Personnel engaged in melee will only respond to commands when a roll of 1-4 is made (on a six-sided die). This will be checked each turn. Therefore, orders for withdrawal, for example, can be given for three turns later which allows three turns for the personnel to respond.
Swimming: Note that in gale and storm conditions there is a 50% chance that any man in the water will drown. Roll for this possibility each turn.
Stepping/Unstepping Masts: This is done only on Galleys and Longships. Ten crew accomplish the task in three turns.


And finally,

In reference to magic durations:
(excluding the spell duration stats, which are also given in turns)

Hold Portal: Roll two dice to determine the duration of the spell in turns. (M&M p23)

Light: lasts for a number of turns equal to 6 + the number of levels of the user (M&M p23)

Fly: The spell lasts for the number of turns equal to the level of the Magic-User plus the number of pips on a six-sided die (M&M p25)

Potions: For those with limited effect the time will be six turns plus the number of pips rolled on a six-sided die.



Excepting of the spell duration statistics (which are always given as a number of "turns") that's every reference to "rounds" and "turns" in the 3LBBs.


So today's question is, what is a spell duration turn?


The popular answer seems to be that it's meant to be a one minute long (equal to a melee round), and Chainmail implies as much, having one minute turns and a couple of spells with durations of a few turns. However, Swords & Spells arbitrarily doubles the turn length to two minutes without altering spell durations.

However, a dungeon exploration turn is 10 minutes long (as seen above). And in those terms, there's nothing especially "magical" about spells with trivial durations. Put plainly, if a Light spell lasts just 2-7 minutes it ain't worth spit, but if it lasts 20-70 minutes it might be a viable spell choice.

If Protection from Evil lasts just 6 minutes, it's hardly much protection at all. But if it lasts an hour, well that's something worth thinking about.

If Hold Portal lasts 2-12 minutes, then five times out of six it will not even hold out for one single exploration turn! If, on the other hand, it lasts for 20-120 minutes then it really is holding that portal long enough for the caster to escape the scene.

If Sleep lasts 4-16 minutes (as given in S&S), then it's just a wee nod off. Would you consider yourself to have had a "sleep" if it lasted only 10 minutes? If, on the other hand, it were to last 40-160 minutes, then it would be a proper hour or three's sleep. You'd call that a real sleep. The net effect for the magicked party is probably identical, if they are all put to sleep, in either case.


It goes on.

In fact, the vast majority of spell durations are either "instant", "permanent", or "until broken", or else 12, 6, or 3 turns. A few of them are 1-6 turns +1 turn per level, or similar.

Is Flying for a few minutes really what's envisaged for a third level spell? That gives you just a single exploration turn. A 60-110 minute duration would make it genuinely useful for more than just the merest of aerial flits. You could fly to the next town. Or to the castle in the clouds. Or engage in an aerial battle with dragons (if you're crazy)!

Is Water Breathing for just 12 minutes a viable 3rd level spell? You'll barely have time to get wet, let alone visit an undersea city.

Is Polymorphing yourself for ten minutes really superhero grade magic? Sure, it lasts for one combat... but it's barely long enough to do anything useful. One or two hours of action as a dragon, on the other hand, might be long enough to engage in campaign shaping antics. Frightening off an army, or all the folk in a neighboring town, or some such. That's where 4th level magic should be at.

Part Water for mere six minutes?? That's barely long enough for a halfling to ford a river, let alone a sizable body of troops!


Sleep, hold person, and hold monster probably don't "need" 10 minute turns, but it really makes hardly any difference either way; if the enemy is incapacitated for 2 minutes or 20 minutes, they will be captured or slain just the same.

On the other hand, the spells where "10 minute turn" durations could have a significant impact on combat are haste and slow. Both last "3 turns". If that's 3 minutes, then it lasts for part of a combat encounter that doesn't go perfectly. If that's 30 minutes, then it lasts a whole combat encounter, and maybe some exploration time before/after. Considering that the subjects might age a year after receiving a haste, I don't think 30 minutes is too much at all. And it's certainly easier for the referee to know that haste is in effect for the whole of the encounter.


So in summary, it seems to me that spell duration turns are perfectly fine at 10 minutes each, and I don't spy anything in the text that hints they are meant to be otherwise.

Users of magic celebrate!

[Porphyre]

The duration of a Fire Ball is one turn (M&M p 25 ) and so is the Lightening bolt ("It is otherwise similar to a Fire Ball").
I don’t imagine a fire ball exploding for 10 full minutes, so I suppose that, in this context "turn" means the same thing "one minute round".

My feeling is that, before things became more codified, the "turn" means "whatever it takes to make one move / take one action", with its actual duration varying according to the scale of operations: travel and hex-crawling? One turn = one day. Dungeon exploration? One turn = 10 minutes. In combat: the rhythm accelerates and one turn (aka "one round") = one minute.

That's the way I understand the whole sentence: "Melee is fast and furious. There are ten rounds of combat per turn."
And if that means that a spell can have different durations whenever cast in battle or in exploration, I'm OK with that.

[snorri]

An alternative reading could be: the magic-user cast the fireball (or fireball), then can delay it up to one turn before to actualy launch it. It would enable to cast the spell before a fight then send it during the fight.

[waysoftheearth]

Swords & Spells lists both fireball and lightning bolt as having no duration, so another interpretation of the 1 turn duration given in M&M is that could be the casting time. Or it could be a mistake that was "amended" in S&S. AD&D seems to imply the latter, but AD&D made lots of changes so that's not definitive.

[Stormcrow]

You're treating the various books as if they were being guided by a desire to have everything make sense, but really they were designed piecemeal, throwing out various ideas for consumption. I don't find the supplements very useful for determining what was meant by a particular section of the original set.

[coffee]

Jun 24, 2013 9:47:03 GMT -6 snorri said:

An alternative reading could be: the magic-user cast the fireball (or fireball), then can delay it up to one turn before to actualy launch it. It would enable to cast the spell before a fight then send it during the fight.

I like this interpretation.

I've seen a lot of people in later editions who could cast a spell and 'hold the charge' until they use it. That had to come from somewhere!

[waysoftheearth]

Jun 24, 2013 9:43:46 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

My feeling is that, before things became more codified, the "turn" means "whatever it takes to make one move / take one action", with its actual duration varying according to the scale of operations: travel and hex-crawling? One turn = one day. Dungeon exploration? One turn = 10 minutes. In combat: the rhythm accelerates and one turn (aka "one round") = one minute.

That's the way I understand the whole sentence: "Melee is fast and furious. There are ten rounds of combat per turn."
And if that means that a spell can have different durations whenever cast in battle or in exploration, I'm OK with that.

The more I think about it, the more I like this approach.

In fact, that's exactly what is demonstrated when S&S changed from CM's one minute turns to two minute turns; durations (number of turns) did not change, but the amount of "time in game" represented did change.

Also this is exactly what is stated in Greyhawk which says (p23, the Fear spell description):

"Duration: 6 turns (movement or melee as applicable)".


Distances scale up and down, so why shouldn't durations too?

[Zenopus]

You guys may be recreating Holmes' thought processes that led to including shifting turns in Basic...

[waysoftheearth]

p.s. I just noticed that's the 2nd time I've gone thru every occurrence of "round" and "turn" (see here). I must be crazy!

[waysoftheearth]

Jun 26, 2013 18:15:46 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

You guys may be recreating Holmes' thought processes that led to including shifting turns in Basic...

Can you explain "shifting turns" for us Zenopus? (I don't have the books with me).

[Zenopus]

In HB, the turns shift from 10 min to "combat turns", which are ten rounds of 10 sec (so combat turns are 100 sec). This is close to the 2 min of S&S.

"Each turn is ten minutes except during combat where there are ten melee rounds per turn, each round lasting ten seconds" (pg 9)

"There are ten "rounds" of combat per turn. Each round is ten seconds, so a combat turn is shorter than a regular turn, but results in at least as much muscular fatigue" (pg 20)

However, Holmes doesn't specify what the purpose of tracking "combat turns" is. Why not just track rounds? Holmes supplies combat movement per round, so it's not like the "combat turn" is needed for movement.

The main thing that "combat turns" would seem to apply to is spell/magic (i.e., potion) durations. However, the shortest spell duration is 2 turns, so even if combat turns are used that still is 20 rounds, longer than most combats. It would however, mean that most spells cast during combat would end relatively soon after combat is over with.

My thought for justifying the shifting durations was that spells cast during combat have shorter durations due to the spell caster being hurried/nervous/etc.

Jun 26, 2013 18:17:37 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

p.s. I just noticed that's the 2nd time I've gone thru every occurrence of "round" and "turn" (see here). I must be crazy!

I thought your post seemed familiar!

[Stormcrow]

Jun 26, 2013 20:40:45 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

In HB, the turns shift from 10 min to "combat turns", which are ten rounds of 10 sec (so combat turns are 100 sec). This is close to the 2 min of S&S.

"Each turn is ten minutes except during combat where there are ten melee rounds per turn, each round lasting ten seconds" (pg 9)

"There are ten "rounds" of combat per turn. Each round is ten seconds, so a combat turn is shorter than a regular turn, but results in at least as much muscular fatigue" (pg 20)

I read this as meaning there are ten rounds of combat in a turn, each round needs to be a quick flurry of blows, so let's call it ten seconds, and let's assume the remaining 500 seconds of the ten-minute turn are abstracted away into pauses between the flurries, resting afterward, and so on. There is no separation into "combat turns" and "regular turns."

[Zenopus]

Stormcrow: that's a useful interpretation & Gygax actually suggests treating the melee turn similarly in the Holmes version of B2:

If fighting should occur, the time reference shifts to a melee turn which is subdivided into ten, 10 second melee rounds. The concept of a melee turn is designed to simulate the quick exchange of blows in combat. For the sake of convenience, a DM can consider one entire melee turn to equal one normal turn (that is, 10 minutes), no matter how many melee rounds the combat took. The extra time is spent recovering one's breath, checking for woulds, re-sharpening blunted weapons, etc.

(pg 4, section TIME)

However, I think he makes this suggestion here because most folks read the melee turn as explained by Holmes to be 100 secs long.

Metamorphosis Alpha (1976) also uses shifting turns - from one hour to 10 secs: "Special movement refers to situations where other beings are encountered and a conflict
situation might occur. At this time the turn changes from a basic game-hour to a short interval of but 10 seconds. Of course, during each 10 second encounter turn many things (conversation, attack by projectile weapon, combat melee, and so on) can take place." (pg 20)

[Zenopus]

Jun 26, 2013 20:40:45 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

The main thing that "combat turns" would seem to apply to is spell/magic (i.e., potion) durations. However, the shortest spell duration is 2 turns, so even if combat turns are used that still is 20 rounds, longer than most combats. It would however, mean that most spells cast during combat would end relatively soon after combat is over with.

I'm going to correct myself here. I was assuming that a spell cast during combat would continue to follow "melee turns" after combat ends. But thinking about this further I don't think this makes sense. "Melee turns" end once combat is over, period, and the spell duration should then shift back to "normal turns" for the rest of the duration.

Let's say Enlargement is cast by a Conjurer (Lvl 3) during the 1st round combat. It has a duration of 1 turn plus level of spell, so 4 turns in this case. If combat is 10 rounds or less, this would use 1 turn of the spell up. After combat is over, 3 "regular turns" (10 min) would remain. If combat went between 10-20 rounds, a second "combat turn" would be used up, so after combat the spell would only last 2 more "regular turns".

What it comes down to is just tracking how much of your spell turns are used by combat rounds (10 combat actions = 1 turn) and/or exploration (1 movement or search = 1 turn)

[Vile Traveller]

I like to use Holmes combat turn duration for spells cast during combat, even if the duration extends past the combat. The rationale is that spells cast under the stress of combat don't go as well as those that are cast in perfect conditions. The casting determines the duration, so it doesn't matter what happens after that. A well-timed spell cast just before combat, for example, would use normal 10-minute turns for duration.

[waysoftheearth]

In light of all this, it seems plain to me now that the "elastic scale" feature of OD&D applies to turns as well as distances.

We call know that distance scales with context; the 3LBBs state so quite plainly.

That time scale is also elastic is not quite so apparent, but it's all there once you start looking. E.g.,

. Chainmail has 1 minute turns.
. The 3LBBs have 1 day turns for wilderness exploration, 10 minute turns for dungeon exploration, and 1 minute turns (a.k.a. melee rounds) for combat.
. S&S has 2 minute turns.

In terms of dungeon exploration it means that spells cast in the heat of combat have but a tenth the duration of those prepared prior. This is a great thing insofar as some of the low level spells can be properly useful. It's also a strong incentive for spell casters to plan ahead, rather than "blow" their load as a knee-jerk combat reaction.

In terms of wilderness exploration, it means that spells can last days instead of just hours. This opens the possibility of a spell caster genuinely impacting the wider campaign world with some of the upper level spells. I think that a pretty exciting prospect for the spell caster.

[cooper]

I don't think it's right to call the 0d&d combat turn, "aka rounds".

CHAINMAIL had rounds, they were unspecified, but assumed not to go much longer than 3-5 rounds during a 1 minute turn, as fatigue set in. All the original rules did was codify the number of rounds to 10 within the 1 minute turn, if for no other reason as players could still very well still use CHAINMAIL combat in 0d&d.

Of course Gygax quickly moved to the 1 minute round for reasons he explained (lethality and inability to flee combat once engaged under CM system). But the round as written in 0d&d is 6 seconds. Furthermore this matches the "6 segments" of combat presented in elderich wizardry that players with a move of 12" move 2" per segment of a round as well as 1st - 6th level spells being cast on their respective segments.

Ad&d, under Gygax renamed the 0d&d round into segments and then increased te number to 10 in order to incorporate 7th -9th level casting times.

[waysoftheearth]

Jun 29, 2013 8:53:21 GMT -6 cooper said:

I don't think it's right to call the 0d&d combat turn, "aka rounds".

That was in reference to the multiple occurrences of the term "melee rounds" in the 3LBBs (as quoted in the OP).

Jun 29, 2013 8:53:21 GMT -6 cooper said:

All the original rules did was codify the number of rounds to 10 within the 1 minute turn

That may be so if you believe that the last line on U&WA p8 "There are ten rounds of combat per turn" is unrelated to the text directly preceding it under the same heading "it takes about ten minutes to make two moves... two moves constitute a turn."

FWIW,

1) I haven't seen more than 3 rounds of combat in any Chainmail turn, and I've seen others report also that 3 rounds of combat per Chainmail turn is about the max seen. One and two round turns are more common than three round turns, and even if you very rarely see 4 or 5 round turns, the average round duration would be something like 30-40 seconds.
2) Swords & Spells doubled turn duration to two minutes, during which it explicitly allows exactly 1, 2 or 3 rounds of combat. Average round duration would be something approaching one minute.

Which fits kinda neatly with:

3) U&WA states that dungeon turns are ten minutes in duration, and that there are 10 rounds of combat in each. Round duration one minute.



Regardless, whatever the period is called, I hope we agree that the duration of a combat period is shorter than the duration of an exploration period

[Stormcrow]

Jun 29, 2013 8:53:21 GMT -6 cooper said:

But the round as written in 0d&d is 6 seconds.

No, it isn't, and I'm going to continue to deny this whenever you claim it. You have misread the text.

[Stormcrow]

Jun 29, 2013 10:07:23 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Regardless, whatever the period is called, I hope we agree that the duration of a combat period is shorter than the duration of an exploration period

"We," you and Cooper, or "we," you and everyone else? I certainly don't agree. I think "combat turn" or "melee turn" mean "turn during which combat rounds occur," not "different sort of turn than an 'exploration turn."

The time system given in the original set, with regularized names, is:

Name	Period	Activity	Movement	Rest	Pursuit
Day	24 hours	Wilderness exploration	Per table and terrain on UWA pp. 16-17	One day in seven	Normal movement rate, rest one-half day per five-mile hex traveled
Turn	10 minutes	Underworld exploration	Two moves as given on MM p. 15	One turn in six	Four moves as given on MM p. 16, rest two turns
Round	1 minute	Encounter/combat	One move as given on MM p. 15	N/A	N/A

[Zenopus]

We've been around in circles on this one before. I can see multiple sides of the argument. Use what works for you.

[cooper]

Jun 29, 2013 11:13:51 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

Jun 29, 2013 8:53:21 GMT -6 cooper said:

But the round as written in 0d&d is 6 seconds.

No, it isn't, and I'm going to continue to deny this whenever you claim it. You have misread the text.

Combat in 0d&d originally was meant to be compatable with CHAINMAIL. A 1 minute round is not compatable with CHAINMAIL.

People coming from CHAINMAIL (the initial intended Audience) knew exactly how long a combat turn was (1 minute) and also knew that multiple rounds of melee are possible therein. The statement "there are 10 rounds of melee per (combat) turn, is easily understood in this context.

Obviously Gygax and others quickly changed their mind, he explained as such in dragon #15, but that doesn't change how the book was written.

[Stormcrow]

Jun 29, 2013 13:42:05 GMT -6 cooper said:

Combat in 0d&d originally was meant to be compatable with CHAINMAIL.

No, it wasn't. It was derived from, but not identical to, Chainmail. You could pull your D&D characters into a Chainmail battle using the Fighting Capability column of the Statistics Regarding Classes tables, but then you'd be playing a large-scale battle in Chainmail, not D&D.

People coming from CHAINMAIL (the initial intended Audience) knew exactly how long a combat turn was (1 minute) and also knew that multiple rounds of melee are possible therein.

In Chainmail. D&D is not Chainmail. The intended audience also knew this. Everyone using the original set used the alternate combat tables. You did not use Chainmail rules to play D&D.

The statement "there are 10 rounds of melee per (combat) turn, is easily understood in this context.

It's even easier to understand when you take it to mean "there are 10 rounds of combat per turn," which is exactly what it says in the section on ten-minute turns. It does not distinguish "combat turns" or "Chainmail turns" from "exploratory turns," and such a distinction has no meaning in the game.

Obviously Gygax and others quickly changed their mind, he explained as such in dragon #15, but that doesn't change how the book was written.

He didn't explain that he'd changed his mind, if that's what you mean. Indeed, he explicitly says there that a Chainmail turn was renamed to a "melee round" or simple "round."

You're a historical revisionist, and you don't realize it. Everyone in Gary's first campaign has stated unequivocally that they did not use Chainmail to handle D&D combat. You're simply unable to accept that the concept of an indefinite number of melee periods during a single movement period disappeared without mention in D&D; you think if it was in Chainmail, it must still be in D&D. But what's really maddening is that you insist on pushing your Chainmail-turn hypothesis as if it were accepted fact, without even suggesting that what you're saying isn't considered mainstream thinking.

[waysoftheearth]

Stormcrow, I had intended "we" to encompass the general readership including cooper and everyone else; apologies if I assumed too much.

Still, despite your disagreeing with my assumption/hope (that "we" generally agree that the combat period is shorter than the exploration period), your table of periods seems to support the point that I was attempting to communicate. I.e., that combat takes place in periods of shorter duration than does exploration.


It terms of whether or not spell duration "turns" should encompass combat periods and exploration periods equally, it probably doesn't matter exactly how long these periods are -- there's already a whole discussion dedicated to that one. All that matters is that they differ.

[aldarron]

One sentence. That's all there is, that one sentence in U&WA, by all appearances a late addition to the game. Take away that one sentence and there would be little if any reason to think anything other than the normal one minute CHAINMAIL turn was usually meant in D&D. Yet that one sentence has caused more confusion, consternation, debate and spilled ink.

Heh, in the end it's each to his own, of course. That's the spirit of the game as I'm sure we all can agree. In my games I choose to ignore that particular sentence in U&WA and I find that doing so solves all those wacky, snail like movement rate issues and works much better for spells. Which brings me to..

Jun 24, 2013 7:38:01 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

If Protection from Evil lasts just 6 minutes, it's hardly much protection at all. But if it lasts an hour, well that's something worth thinking about.

If Hold Portal lasts 2-12 minutes, then five times out of six it will not even hold out for one single exploration turn! If, on the other hand, it lasts for 20-120 minutes then it really is holding that portal long enough for the caster to escape the scene.

If Sleep lasts 4-16 minutes (as given in S&S), then it's just a wee nod off. Would you consider yourself to have had a "sleep" if it lasted only 10 minutes? If, on the other hand, it were to last 40-160 minutes, then it would be a proper hour or three's sleep. You'd call that a real sleep. The net effect for the magicked party is probably identical, if they are all put to sleep, in either case.


It goes on.

In fact, the vast majority of spell durations are either "instant", "permanent", or "until broken", or else 12, 6, or 3 turns. A few of them are 1-6 turns +1 turn per level, or similar.

Is Flying for a few minutes really what's envisaged for a third level spell? That gives you just a single exploration turn. A 60-110 minute duration would make it genuinely useful for more than just the merest of aerial flits. You could fly to the next town. Or to the castle in the clouds. Or engage in an aerial battle with dragons (if you're crazy)!

Is Water Breathing for just 12 minutes a viable 3rd level spell? You'll barely have time to get wet, let alone visit an undersea city.

Is Polymorphing yourself for ten minutes really superhero grade magic? Sure, it lasts for one combat... but it's barely long enough to do anything useful. One or two hours of action as a dragon, on the other hand, might be long enough to engage in campaign shaping antics. Frightening off an army, or all the folk in a neighboring town, or some such. That's where 4th level magic should be at.

Part Water for mere six minutes?? That's barely long enough for a halfling to ford a river, let alone a sizable body of troops!


Sleep, hold person, and hold monster probably don't "need" 10 minute turns, but it really makes hardly any difference either way; if the enemy is incapacitated for 2 minutes or 20 minutes, they will be captured or slain just the same.

On the other hand, the spells where "10 minute turn" durations could have a significant impact on combat are haste and slow. Both last "3 turns". If that's 3 minutes, then it lasts for part of a combat encounter that doesn't go perfectly. If that's 30 minutes, then it lasts a whole combat encounter, and maybe some exploration time before/after. Considering that the subjects might age a year after receiving a haste, I don't think 30 minutes is too much at all. And it's certainly easier for the referee to know that haste is in effect for the whole of the encounter.


So in summary, it seems to me that spell duration turns are perfectly fine at 10 minutes each, and I don't spy anything in the text that hints they are meant to be otherwise.

Users of magic celebrate!

I lean towards a different opinion. The spells of short duration seem perfectly sensible to me. For one thing they are easier to track, but more importantly, they limit the potentially game breaking power of a magic-user and increase the importance of magic items. Why bother with a magic broom if you can fly to the next town or hover through the dungeon without one? Etc, Etc. Shorter duration also force the magic user to carefully time their spells to when they are really needed. The MU can't cast a detection spell and then wander around town till they find something, for example. That's how I prefer to play it, but as always, YMMV.

[Porphyre]

Jun 29, 2013 20:43:24 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

He didn't explain that he'd changed his mind, if that's what you mean. Indeed, he explicitly says there that a Chainmail turn was renamed to a "melee round" or simple "round

Maybe they just did not think very thorougfuly about it, and didn't "change [their] mind" as much as "made it up already".

[talysman]

Although I'm currently toying with shifting all spell durations to one-minute turns, there's actually a very strong indicator that they're meant to be ten-minute turns. Aside from really short durations of 1, 2 or 3 turns, most of the durations are in multiples of six. If these are one-minute turns, that seems rather arbitrary. If they're ten-minute turns, six turns = 1 hour, 12 turns = 2 hours, which explains why multiples of six would show up so much.

And incidentally, the Fear spell isn't the only spell in Greyhawk that makes reference to using turns two different ways. The Delayed Blast Fireball says "the blast can be delayed up to 10 melee turns (or one movement turn)".

[Stormcrow]

Jul 14, 2013 7:45:39 GMT -6 aldarron said:

One sentence. That's all there is, that one sentence in U&WA,

That's pretty much true of all the rules, and so tells us nothing.

[cooper]

Meh.



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Rounds then are 6 seconds if there are 10 to the turn.

Many spells like the strength spell, if their intended purpose is out of combat list duration is hours, "8 in game hours" is a common duration in Greyhawk. Some list spells as lasting 6 turns or 1 day outdoors (implying 6 movement turns as after both a rest is needed). But maybe Gygax didn't know what he was writing.




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So when it comes to spells like fly or sleep. If you are flying out of combat, you use movement turns, if you sleep someone in combat you use combat turns, but if you sleep someone and aren't fighting (searching the room, moving past them etc) then the duration of the spell is in movment turns. As I said, many spells in Greyhawk list their duration in hours, days and even weeks.

If someone wants to fix it, then you just make the exploration turn 1 min, or you make the combat turn 10 minutes. It's certainly doesn't bend credulity to say that fighting went on for 30 minutes after which the party killed the goblins. Since historic battles sometimes took days of fighting, on the other hand, you can have exploration turns take 1 minute and what you lose is a bit of resource management as the party can clear an entire level of a dungeon in 30 minutes. I'm working on trying to make ingame time a factor of real time (so 50 minutes of real game time is 24 hours in game. So spells would last "1 minute" and that would be about 2 hours in game.) But that's another thread.

[Stormcrow]

Jul 14, 2013 13:37:16 GMT -6 cooper said:

Meh.



Rounds then are 6 seconds if there are 10 to the turn.

No, rounds are one minute if there are ten to the turn.

Face it: the books simply use inconsistent terminology, and any attempt to rationalize the jargon as if it meant something special all along is doomed. A turn might mean your chance to do something, or it might mean movement turn or, as we sometimes call it, an exploration turn, and it's 10 minutes long. A melee turn might mean a 10-minute turn where melee happens instead of movement, or it might mean a round, also called a melee round, which is one minute long, and in which each participant gets some movement and one attack. Prior to Eldritch Wizardry, there are no shorter periods used.

The question of whether turns in the spells in Men & Magic refer to movement turns or melee turns—i.e., rounds—is a good one, but the solution is not to shrink rounds to six or ten seconds and invent a new one-minute period.