Advancement for DD Thieves

[waysoftheearth]

One of the best things about the thief class is house ruling it, and one of the most asked after house rules is some scheme for skill advancement.

Here's what I've recently been dabbling with...


At 1st level the thief player writes a "6" next to each of the thief skills (see Ref Rules v1, p14) on his character sheet. This indicates he should roll a six-sided die for each skill. Any roll of 3+ indicates success.

So far we're all by-the-book.

Then, starting at 2nd level a thief improves any one of his skills (player's choice) each time he advances to a new level. The player scrubs one of the "6"s on his sheet and replaces it with an "8". This indicates that he should now use an eight-sided die for that particular skill. Any roll of 3+ still indicates success, for any of his skills.

At 3rd level he scrubs another "6" and replaces it with another "8".

Starting at 4th level, the player is allowed to improve a skill a second time. In this case he would scrub an "8" and replace it with a "10". This indicates that he should use a ten-sided die for that particular skill. Note that any roll of 3+ still indicates success for any skill, regardless of the die type thrown.

From 8th level the player is allowed to improve a skill for a third and final time by scrubbing a "10" and replacing it with a "12". Now he should throw a twelve-sided die for that particular skill. Any roll of 3+ still indicates success for any skill regardless of the die type thrown.

This system is very easy to manage, and a busy ref can legitimately allow NPC thieves the basic 4 in 6 chance of success for everything if he doesn't have time to quibble over the details.

Note that the reading of maps/ciphers and reading of spell scrolls skills cannot be improved upon until one level after they are first accessed (i.e., 4th and 10th levels, respectively).

Enjoy

[Sean Michael Kelly]

I like this. It's very "Savage Worlds-like" but I think this keeps things simple.

[ratikranger]

I do like the simplicity of this, no doubt, and I do like that the player gets to set the emphasis for their character. I am not so sure about the progression itself: It's 50%, 63%, 70%, 75% and done. The good thing is that the increments get smaller, the bad thing is that we only get 25% difference between worst (beginning) skill and best (mastered) skill. If you add d4 and d20 you can add 25% and 85% as well. Not all thief skills should start at 25%, but maybe some could just to give more of a progression? Finally: There are eight thief skills in DD (not counting the "special" ones), and using this progression means that a 12th level thief has 50% in 5 at 75% and 3 if they concentrate exclusively on 3. Is that enough? It probably is if Thieves keep cleric attacks, not far behind fighters, but I am not sure. Anyway, just wanted to point these things out, I *do* like the mechanic in principle (although I tend to not like rolling anything but d20 for actions, but that's just me).

[waysoftheearth]

Hey Ratikranger, thanks for your remarks.

May 17, 2013 5:40:48 GMT -6 ratikranger said:

I am not so sure about the progression itself: It's 50%, 63%, 70%, 75% and done.

I'm not sure how you figured those percentages, but the way I see it all thieves begin with a base 4/6 chance of success in any subterfuges. They could then "improve" to 6/8, 8/10, and 10/12.

So, the probabilities of success would be closer to:

4/6 = 66.67%
6/8 = 75%
8/10 = 80%
10/12 = 83.33%

There's no reason why you couldn't extend it further if you want to go to 12/14, 14/16 and so on. Go for it!

It didn't seem hugely important to me to detail those super high level skills since DD is primarily concerned with PC levels 1-12, and besides those d14s and d16s aren't all that common. You can get them thou

As far as the specific "skills" go, there are 10 specific subterfuges given in the Ref Rules (including deciphering maps and casting spell scrolls) but there's no reason a creative player couldn't choose others besides. Acrobatics and disguise are a couple of candidates that spring immediately to mind, but I'm sure there are others too


edit:

You can buys d14s here, but they're not the really cool ones discussed here, and depicted here:


Gotta get me a few of those ;D

[waysoftheearth]

May 17, 2013 5:40:48 GMT -6 ratikranger said:

using this progression means that a 12th level thief has 50% in 5 at 75% and 3 if they concentrate exclusively on 3. Is that enough?

If I'm figuring it right, then a 12th level thief would have gained 11 levels after the 1st, and hence would have earned 11 improvements to his thief skills.

Therefore, if he concentrated on the fewest possible skills, he could have:

10/12 (83.33%) in his three best skills, (3x3=9 "ups")
8/10 (80%) in a single second best skill, (1x2=2 "ups")
4/6 (66.67%) in all his other skills. (0x0=0 "ups").


Due to the diminishing return of subsequent improvements in the same skill, one could argue that this thief may have been better off spreading his skills more widely.

That's the interesting thing that each thief player has to decide for himself!

[Koren n'Rhys]

Hmm. This is the second place in the last week or so that I've seen the DD thief skills incorrectly interpreted as a 50% chance of success. Your "3+" on a d6 seems clear enough to me, but maybe you need to rethink your wording on that, Simon. Make it clearer that it's a 4 in 6 chance of success not a 3 in 6 chance.

I've got to say I like the simplicity of your die increase system (very SW-esque as noted by Sean). My thoughts, which I haven't played with yet, was actually to drop the base chance to 3 in 6 at 1st level, then increase to 4 in 6 at 3rd, 5 in 6 at 6th and at 9th, 6 in 6 with a second d6 rolled and double 6s indicating failure (ala LotFP). Your way seems more elegant.

EDIT:
One more thought. Does (or would) anyone allow ability bonuses to the rolls? DEX/INT/WIS as appropriate. With the minimal bonuses in DD (or S&W or OD&D) it seems reasonable to me.

[talysman]

I'll mention that I'm always getting confused about the DD skill roll, too, but in a different way, and for a different reason. I remember it's 4 in 6 (2/3rds chance,) but keep thinking it's roll low. Had to correct my DD version of the Leech class because this thread reminded me of the correct roll.

As for changing the die type this way, I'm kind of resistant to it. The beauty of the DD Thief is that it's very simple: you no longer need to keep track of individual scores, and everything uses common d6s. This method of advancement removes those advantages.

My preference is just to allow a +1 to the roll if the Thief is higher level than the target: level of victim or observer for Pick Pocket, Hide in Shadows, and Move Silent, level of dungeon for Remove Traps and Open Locks. Doesn't require writing anything else on the character sheet, and it's simple to handle on the fly.

[waysoftheearth]

Thanks for the comments guys; I'll revisit the exact wording for the upcoming hardback to make it clearer. FWIW -- the thief text wasn't quite so terse initially, but it had to be trimmed to squeeeze onto the page.


Encouraging house ruling was one of the primary goals of the DD thief so it's great to see that folks have already come up their own rules


A couple of remarks in reply to the above...


Regarding modifiers for ability scores; I haven't used them myself but there's no reason why you couldn't add a +1 for an ability score of, say, 15+ if you wanted to.


An easy "rule of thumb" for DD is that a high roll is always good to whoever is making the roll.


The house rule proposed in my OP was intended to address a player desire to "customise" his thief -- by favouring some skills over others. Is this necessary? Not at all. Is it desirable? Some folks like it, and others don't, which is perfectly fine.

I agree with Talysman's comment about any extra record keeping being a negative -- especially for the referee (which is why I commented that the ref could still default to the standard 4 in 6).

But it is worth recognising that some thief players want something extra to write on their character sheets. The fighters are managing their arsenals of silvered, cold-iron, mundane and magical weaponry. The magic-users and clerics have long lists of spells to scribble down. Some of our thief players want something to think about too, and they're the principle audience for the above.

I also agree that using d6 for everything is a nice feature of DD. Personally, I very rarely have a use for d8s or d12s, so in some ways the proposed system was a way of bringing those extra toys into the action.

If folks prefer to stick to the purity of six-siders only, they could always throw 2d6 for thief skills instead. There's already a precedent for rolling 2d6 in the reaction, morale and turning checks, so it's not as "different".

If folks preferred to go this way, then the base roll for thief success would be, say, 7+ (58.33% likely). This is worse than the default 4 in 6 chance, but possibly justifiable in that low level thieves are worse than the default while high level thieves are better than the default.

The thief could then "improve" as follows:

6+ (72.22%)
5+ (83.33%)
4+ (91.66%)
---
3+ (97.22% --> almost infallible)


For me, the main disadvantage of this 2d6 method is that the probabilities don't tie in neatly with all the other 2 in 6 and 4 in 6 chances that exist in the game.

But it's all house ruling. Have fun with it!

[ratikranger]

Nice catch about me misunderstanding the "any roll of 3+ indicates success" bit. Consider this another vote for rewriting that more clearly for those of limited brain capacity like myself. :-) Also I assumed that regardless of the die you use, you'd always have to roll the same "target number" as it were, where are you saying that the target number changes (either above or in the DD rules)? I feel rather blind since I seem to be the only one who can't see that part anywere...

[waysoftheearth]

Nope, the "target number" is always 3 (or more) on a six-sided die.

When you have 4 chances in 6 of success, that is.

Which, by-the-book, thieves always do for their thiefy stuff

[Deleted]

I postulated a similar idea on my blog ramblingsfrombeyondthepale.blogspot.com/2013/03/delving-deeper.html. I didn't have any advancement beyond the d8, though. I only had them advancing the die type on levels when they gain a new HD (which is only six times). I think I do like your take on this with the d10's and d12's, though.

I'm also working up a Ranger based on the same ideas used for the thief. I should have it posted this weekend.

[Falconer]

I always think low=success on d6 rolls due to open doors, find secret doors, etc. Granted, on initiative you want to roll high.

[waysoftheearth]

This is getting off topic for sure, but...


Consistently needing to roll high is certainly a difference between DD and the original (which requires low rolls as often as high). It was always desired that DD include a few minor quirks to make it unique, and this is one of them.

If you've memorised which way the 3LBBs rule on every die roll, then go with that by all means -- it's the flow of play that matters, not what you're "supposed to roll" for situation X. But spare a thought for those who don't have the 3LBBs. DD is a stand in for these folks, and possibly even a first introduction to old school D&D for some. In that context DD aims to be an approachable game, and (in my view, at least) it's intuitive that a high roll is a good roll.

May 18, 2013 9:33:25 GMT -6 Falconer said:

Granted, on initiative you want to roll high.

Not to mention a whole raft of other things!

As a player you want to see high roll on a six-sided die (or dice) for:

Ability scores, damage rolls, initiative rolls, rolling for hit points, turning undead, not springing traps, not getting lost in the wilderness, determining your new level after reincarnation, determining the number of creatures affected by your sleep spell, determining how many hit points are restored by your cure light wounds spell, checking whether your +2 shield counts over and above your +1 armour, just to name a few off the top of my head.

DD adds a few more to the list for the sake of consistency, including: forcing doors, surprising enemy, locating secret doors, and identifying noises. The other "thief skills" are additional to the 3LBBs, but they overlap with those just listed and are treated identically.


It's worthwhile noting that a player also wants the referee to roll high with his six-sided dice for hireling loyalty scores, hireling morale checks, monster reaction checks, the level of spells found of scrolls, and a bunch of other things I'm sure.


On the other side of the screen, as a DD referee you'll also want to roll high (on the Underworld's behalf) with six-siders for:

Random monster checks, rolling monster hit points, initiative, and morale checks, determining whether monsters will pursue, determining numbers of leveled NPCs encountered and how many bodyguards, pages, acolytes or apprentices accompany them, weather conditions (the Wilderness always wants stormy weather), distance PCs are displaced by a storm (the Wilderness wants them to faaaar away), an Android's spell level (the Android wants access to higher level spells), the chance of a Dragon sleeping (the Dragon doesn't want to be caught napping), chance of a wedged door closing (the Underworld wants it to close), and so on. (I just noticed that last one is 5-6 in the LBBs, but 1-2 in DD! That needs correcting in DD).


FWIW, players will also want to roll high on other sized dice, mainly for saving throws and attack rolls.

The referee will also want to roll high (on behalf of the Underworld) for monster attacks and saves and on subdual checks (d% on monster's behalf, where a high roll means monster is not subdued).

And last, but certainly not least, the players will want the referee to roll very high on the treasure tables!

[waysoftheearth]

May 18, 2013 7:26:43 GMT -6 @ilvarin said:

I postulated a similar idea on my blog ramblingsfrombeyondthepale.blogspot.com/2013/03/delving-deeper.html.

Hey Ilvarin, nice work

Looking forward to your ranger... you could share it here too so more DD folks can enjoy it

[Sean Michael Kelly]

I like the idea of rolling high for as many rolls as possible too. It's been an adjustment from the 3llb's et al. but for the sake of a lot of new players, it's helpful to keep it consistent, so that's "how I roll."

Ilvarin, here's a 2nd motion for you to share your Ranger class with us DD'ers. :-)

[busman]

May 17, 2013 5:57:10 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

You can buys d14s here, but they're not the really cool ones discussed here, and depicted here:


Gotta get me a few of those ;D

According to this guy, they aren't quite even in their distribution:
www.numericana.com/answer/dice.htm#korean

[waysoftheearth]

May 21, 2013 19:35:01 GMT -6 busman said:

According to this guy, they aren't quite even in their distribution:
www.numericana.com/answer/dice.htm#korean

Holy Cow! What's the simpleton's version of all that stuff?

[discuit]

Late to the party but.....

As someone who read the thief abilities as 4, 5 & 6 being a success, all i have done is change that to 3,4,5,6 at lvl 5 and 2,3,4,5 & 6 at lvl 9.

Its simple and there is no book keeping to boot.

As an aside i really do think that that at lvl's 1-3 a 50/50 chance is more than enough for a beginning thief.

[waysoftheearth]

That's a nice mechanic too, discuit .

Bear in mind that the DD thief was purposefully written to be house ruled

[strangebrew]

Most of these ideas tend towards making the thief get better from an already generous (compared to OD&D) starting point.

I was thinking of doing something different. At first level, a thief picks one ability from the following rough list:

Move Silently, Hide, Climb Sheer Surfaces, Balance, Ventriloquism, Open Locks, Disarm Traps, Snatch*, Backstab**, Read Scrolls, Track, Black Market Connections, etc.

Then at level after that, they get to add an additional ability, including ones they might make up. A 50% chance in one thing seems better than a 15% chance in many things, like the original material, and it's an easy way for a thief to develop and expand his portfolio so to speak.

On the other hand, it might be a bit harsh. Though players used to their abilities all starting low might not think so.

* (maybe not the best name... like pick pockets, ledgermain, slight of hand, etc. all together)
** (character must have Move Silently or Hide as a prerequisite)

EDIT: This would also encourage more than one thief in a party, or perhaps a party full of thieves!

[waysoftheearth]

Nice work strangebrew!

[ehiker133]

Aug 20, 2013 16:48:39 GMT -6 strangebrew said:

Most of these ideas tend towards making the thief get better from an already generous (compared to OD&D) starting point.

I was thinking of doing something different. At first level, a thief picks one ability from the following rough list:

Move Silently, Hide, Climb Sheer Surfaces, Balance, Ventriloquism, Open Locks, Disarm Traps, Snatch*, Backstab**, Read Scrolls, Track, Black Market Connections, etc.

Then at level after that, they get to add an additional ability, including ones they might make up. A 50% chance in one thing seems better than a 15% chance in many things, like the original material, and it's an easy way for a thief to develop and expand his portfolio so to speak.

On the other hand, it might be a bit harsh. Though players used to their abilities all starting low might not think so.

* (maybe not the best name... like pick pockets, ledgermain, slight of hand, etc. all together)
** (character must have Move Silently or Hide as a prerequisite)

EDIT: This would also encourage more than one thief in a party, or perhaps a party full of thieves!

The nice thing about this idea is it gives you a tool (a skill) you are more likely to use (when compared to the 1e thief, where the chance of success is so low I find myself not even attempting many of my thief skills until later levels...