PR: adjust till the cows come home!

[oldkat]

Why not?
I've been pondering this mechanic of late and come to this conclusion.
If I roll a S8 I12 W13 C10 D13 C9 and want to play a Fighting Man, is it going to BTG* if I adjust my I&W below 8 to raise my Strength? How does one justify the "you can't do that" paradigm against those that roll piss poor in the other PR they don't need anyway?

If we are to assume that piss-poor rolls in other abilities are good, designed to force us to roleplay the character, then why is it bad to lower PR that are not germane to our class?

I post these questions rhetorically--kind of--since i have decided to ignore the "you can't" philosophy from my paradigm of playing. But I'm curious as to who else sees it the same way/or not, and why.

*BreakTheGame

[Stormcrow]

Your question is not clear to me. M&M p. 11 says you can't adjust a score to lower than 9. Are you asking whether people think this limit is worthwhile?

I do. It keeps every character from having an 18 in his prime requisite score, and from being a complete doofus in every other way. And it is minimally realistic: if you're naturally strong, even spending all your time studying magic isn't going to turn you into a helpless weakling.

I don't think low scores are meant to force you to role-play (i.e., play-act).

[Deleted]

Play the game in whatever way is "fun" to you and your mates. If you're doing that? You're doing it right!

[geoffrey]

It will certainly not break the game.

Myself, I prefer 3d6 in order set in stone (i. e., no adjustments allowed). I like to play whatever the dice give me. It adds to my fun.

[oldkat]

"It keeps every character from having an 18 in his prime requisite score"

In M&M there is no need to adjust one's PR above 15 unless one is a MU. There is no benefit to the FM or Cleric that is intrinsic to his class for doing so, other than as an ability check. And there's nothing wrong with being a strong FM and a doofus in regards to I&/orW.

Its all a matter of preference, I submit.

[Stormcrow]

No, but when every character is a superman in one ability and a complete incompetent in every other, it gets silly.

[Ynas Midgard]

It would be much easier to achieve the maximum possible XP bonus. If there is too much customisation allowed, one could just simply switch to a point-buy system with a randomised pool (say, 3d6 in order for non-PR stats, and 9d6 points spent among PR stats).

[kesher]

Yes. What he said. Well, except for the point-buy part, which confused me...

[aldarron]

I don't understand what "PR" is supposed to be.

[oldkat]

May 7, 2013 17:52:44 GMT -6 aldarron said:

I don't understand what "PR" is supposed to be.

PR = Prime Requisite

For Fighting Man it is STR
For Magic User it is INT
For Cleric it is WIS

[Deleted]

[joke] I thought it stood for "Public Relations" [/joke] ;D

Sorry for the fake tags, but I thought I'd better make quite certain everyone knew this was a joke!

[talysman]

There was some debate a while back whether the adjustment rules originally referred to an actual point-trade, or a boost to the prime requisite for experience purposes only. It clearly became a point trade by Holmes, and I think the language strongly suggests a point-trade even by Greyhawk, but it looks vague enough in Men & Magic that I'm not sure it was always a point trade.

If it isn't a point trade, then it makes sense why only scores above 9 adjust your prime requisite. A strong and *clever* fighter might advance faster, but why should a strong and *dumb* fighter get a slight experience boost?

[oldkat]

If it isn't a point trade, then it makes sense why only scores above 9 adjust your prime requisite. A strong and *clever* fighter might advance faster, but why should a strong and *dumb* fighter get a slight experience boost?

But why, otoh, should a *genius* magic user have to worry about being "pumped up" in order to advance faster, or a *wise* cleric, when his physicality has absolutely no direct link (mechanic-connection) to his class?

Whatever the intent of the authors is/was, I subscribe to the notion that, in the end, they leave it up to the GM to decide his own campaign tweaks.

[Finarvyn]

May 7, 2013 11:22:53 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Myself, I prefer 3d6 in order set in stone (i. e., no adjustments allowed). I like to play whatever the dice give me. It adds to my fun.

I used to prefer this until I married an "I play magic-users only" wife. Better to switch than to argue.

[Deleted]

You're a wise man, Marv! ;D

[Sean Michael Kelly]

May 7, 2013 11:04:11 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

Play the game in whatever way is "fun" to you and your mates. If you're doing that, you're doing it right!

Amen, amen, & amen. Good sermon, Bro Cam! ;D

[talysman]

May 7, 2013 21:47:45 GMT -6 oldkat said:

If it isn't a point trade, then it makes sense why only scores above 9 adjust your prime requisite. A strong and *clever* fighter might advance faster, but why should a strong and *dumb* fighter get a slight experience boost?

But why, otoh, should a *genius* magic user have to worry about being "pumped up" in order to advance faster, or a *wise* cleric, when his physicality has absolutely no direct link (mechanic-connection) to his class?

A magic-user, genius or otherwise, doesn't have to worry about being "pumped up". Whether it's a real point trade or just an effective boost in one's prime requisite, Strength does not increase Intelligence.

Let's look at the rules given:

Strength is the prime requisite for fighters. Clerics can use strength on a 3 for 1 basis in their prime requisite area (wisdom), for purposes of gaining experience only.

[ ... ]

Intelligence is the prime requisite for magical types. Both fighters and Clerics can use it in their prime requisite areas (strength and wisdom respectively) on a 2 for 1 basis.

[ ... ]

Wisdom is the prime requisite for Clerics. It may be used on a 3 for 1 basis by fighters, and on a 2 for 1 basis by Magic-Users, in their respective prime requisite areas.

To put it another way:

• The prime requisite of Fighting-Men is Strength; their secondary requisite is Intelligence, and their tertiary is Wisdom.
  
• The prime requisite of Magic-Users is Intelligence; their secondary requisite is Wisdom.
  
• The prime requisite of Clerics is Wisdom; their secondary requisite is Intelligence, and their tertiary is Strength.
  

Fighters and Clerics are the inverse of each other, in this scheme. They both value Intelligence about the same, but Fighters put more emphasis on Strength and less on Wisdom, while Clerics put more emphasis on Wisdom and less on Strength.

Magic-Users are all mental. Their Strength has no effect on their advancement. That's what distinguishes them from Clerics, who are half Fighter, half spell-caster, and therefore have a little use for Strength.

It's the incongruities that make me think this wasn't intended to be a real point trade. Why can't Magic-Users trade Strength for Intelligence? I think one of the later Basic D&D books allowed this, but here, they can't. I say it's because Strength doesn't affect *spell-casting*, so your pure spell-casters don't get to use it to advance faster.

The main reason I am interested in the non-point-trade approach is because it seems to be a completely abandoned interpretation. I haven't heard of anyone who does it; either they do a real point trade, ban point trading, or switch to outright point buy. Secondary and tertiary abilities is a completely unexplored option.

[Stormcrow]

I agree; I think the intention was to make the lesser abilities add to the prime requisite for a total experience adjustment. It might have been better worded thus:

Fighting-Men: Add Strength, +1 for every full two points of Intelligence over 8, +1 for every full three points of Wisdom over 8.

Magic-Users: Add Intelligence, +1 for every full two points of Wisdom over 8.

Clerics: Add Wisdom, +1 for every full three points of Strength over 8, +1 for every full two points of Intelligence over 8.

Look up the total as "Prime Requisite" on the Bonuses and Penalties to Advancement due to Abilities table on p. 11.

Write down your total XP adjustment on your character sheet, so you don't have to make this calculation every time you get XP. This calculation isn't optional; it happens automatically. It also means there are no "dump stats," except for strength for magic-users, and this one is perfectly justified by genre emulation.

Note that this means even characters with very average scores will probably get favorable experience adjustments:

Fighting-Man: S 12; I 12; W 12 (Prime Requisite 10+2+1=13 = XP+5%)
Fighting-Man: S 6; I 14; W 11 (Prime Requisite 6+3+1=10 = XP+0%, not -20%)

Or to look at oldkat's original character:

Fighting-Man: S8 I12 W13 C10 D13 C9 (Prime Requisite 8+2+1=11 = XP+0%)