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Post by bestialwarlust on Apr 9, 2013 8:22:56 GMT -6
So a friend and I were discussing this class. He expressed interest in playing one. But I'm of the opinion that they are pretty much useless. What do they really bring to an adventuring group? 1. They have some thief skills. Well thieves (if you use them) are better and all character classes can attempt "thiefly" things anyway. 2. Legend lore! So? magic users as a class are assumed to be competent in arcane and legend lore (at least in my game) same for clerics if an item is of a religious nature they can do the same as MU's for those items. And what might be too obscure they can consult a sage or adventure for info. But sages cost money he pointed out and I said it's a minor detail. 3.They can pursuade people and creatures! So does a charm spell or a reaction roll and good role playing. So not much there 4.Some can use magic! Ok so some minor spell casting but you can do a multi or dual class and still not be as effective as a MU 5. Bonus to combat and morale rolls Still seems like a minor benefit And this is going through various editions and looking at them and dragon magazine/SR articles. Most of the above to me can be assumed in a short character background. "My my fighter group up in court and knows how to play instruments" Now I wasn't being confrontational at all I like to let players come up with whatever they can imagine. But as far as a separate class to me it doesn't seem class worthy. I told him think from a characters perspective. You're sitting in the dimly lit tavern in your dark corner with you sign on the table "Adventurers for Hire" you have a line of applicants there. You're about to plumb the depths of death and doom dungeon. There will be traps...dragons...demons and trolls to overcome. You have Conan, Fafhard, Merlin, The grey mouser in your line and at the very end is Eddie Van Halen. Why do you skip the others to take Eddie along in the upcoming meat grinder? yeah he can bust out some wicked riff's but will that help you when your life is on the line? So what am I missing with bards? is it me or do they seem useless 90% of the time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 9:37:11 GMT -6
Somebody thought they would be fun. Just because they have a different idea of fun from you doesn't mean they're wrong.
Let your player be a bard.
And the bard originated from the same place ALL of D&D came from: "We made up some $hit we thought would be fun."
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Koren n'Rhys
Level 6 Magician
Got your mirrorshades?
Posts: 355
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Post by Koren n'Rhys on Apr 9, 2013 9:41:52 GMT -6
Obviously, Eddie will wield a wicked axe. I'm in! I think bards are handy for a smaller party. They fill that jack of all trades role - decent at a bunch of stuff, excellent at none of it. They can cast some spells and use magic items, fight fairly well and do thiefy stuff in a pinch. If someone wants to play a well-rounded PC, the bard is his guy.
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zeraser
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 184
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Post by zeraser on Apr 9, 2013 9:54:31 GMT -6
I'm with Gronan and Koren. If dude wants to be a bard, let him be a bard - it'll be his job to figure out how to make himself useful to the party.
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Post by Stormcrow on Apr 9, 2013 10:21:36 GMT -6
Just avoid the trope of the singing fop. Bards are scholars whose knowledge derives, in part, from verse, not pretentious musicians stumbling through trouble.
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Post by thorswulf on Apr 9, 2013 10:27:10 GMT -6
They make pretty good sense if your game is based on some dark ages or iron age culture. Bards might be better thought of as spies in such a context as well. They travel, gather news and share it with others, and are generally fairly immune to being attacked in those cultures. they get into places others cant because everybody has such a high regard for their wit, knowledge, and charm. Remember also that true D&D mages would be rare as these cultures were often illiterate....
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Post by chrisj on Apr 9, 2013 10:47:17 GMT -6
Fflewddur Fflam was never useless.
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Post by tombowings on Apr 9, 2013 15:35:30 GMT -6
As a player, I love playing bards.
I may not be the best at any situations, but I always have the most tools to work with. With a little creativity, that alone more than makes up for the lack of specialization.
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Post by talysman on Apr 9, 2013 16:05:06 GMT -6
Of course, I think a lot of these suggestions are based on the AD&D Bard, which does have the serious downside of taking forever just to get to the jack-of-all-trades point. Was the Strategic Review version of the bard more straightforward? I think a good quick substitute for the bard is to just use a thief and replace the surprise attack (backstab) ability with a pacify/charm ability. That's basically what I did with my version of the bard: I applied the Turn Undead mechanic to pacifying enraged creatures (so bards can potentially stop an attack) and made "D" results into Charm Person/Monster effects. Also, if you make the singing/music playing merely a possible way of using their power instead of *necessary*, it makes the class more flexible. Might be a singer, might be an actor, might be the most popular guy in town, might be a con man. Plenty of possibilities.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 16:27:12 GMT -6
I'm too lazy to check, so here's the original bard:
Statistics Regarding Classes: (Additions) BARDS by Doug Schwegman INTRODUCTION A Bard’s Lore percentage reflects the Bard’s knowledge of legends, magic, etc. This is the percentage change a Bard has of telling what certain objects are, what they do, their properties, purposes, etc. This percentage also reflects his knowledge of locales and legends outside of the dungeon; the referee must decide which places and legends a Bard would have a chance of knowing on the outdoor maps. A Bard’s Lore percentage is especially accurate inside the dungeon for reflecting a Bard’s chances of successfully delineating the properties of any weapon (its intelligence and ego if any and its ‘pluses’ etc.) and for correctly doing this a Bard receives additional experience points (generally 100 pts. for every point of intelligence and ego as well as pluses to hit). Note that a Bard does not have to draw or use the weapon to tell its intelligence, alignment, etc., since his knowledge of the weapon comes from legends and his experience in recognizing various types of weapons and armor, both magical and non-magical, as well as his excellent knowledge of magical runes. When a Bard attempts to describe the purposes of an artifact or misc. magic item his chances of success are at least halved, especially when it comes to items that the Bard himself cannot use. Not even the highest Bard can tell any of the books apart, and only a Master Bard will have any chance of telling the different kinds of necklaces and scarabs apart, although almost any Bard has a good chance of identifyiny a cursed spear of back biting or a shield of missile attraction when he sees one. . . . I believe it is a logical addition to the D & D scene and the one I have composed is a hodgepodge of at least three different kinds, the norse ‘skald’, the celtic ‘bard’, and the southern european ‘minstrel’. The skalds were often old warriors who were a kind of self appointed historian whose duty was to record the ancient battles, blood feuds, and deeds of exceptional prowess by setting them to verse much like the ancient Greek poets did. Tolkien, a great Nordic scholar, copied this style several times in the Lord of the Rings trilogy (for example Bilbo’s chant of Earendil the Mariner). The Celts, especially in Britain, had a much more organized structure in which the post of Barbs as official historians fell somewhere between the Gwelfili or public recorders and the Druids who were the judges as well as spiritual leaders. In the Celtic system Bards were trained by the Druids for a period of almost twenty years before they assumed their duties, among which was to follow the heroes into battle to provide an accurate account of their deeds, as well as to act as trusted intermediaries to settle hostilities among opposing tribes. By far the most common conception of a Bard is as a minstrel who entertained to courts of princes and kings in France, Italy and parts of Germany in the latter middle ages. Such a character was not as trust worthy as the Celtic or Nordic Bards and could be compared to a combination Thief-Illusionist. These characters were called Jongleurs by the French, from which the corrupt term juggler and court jester are remembered today . . . I wanted to put the Bard into perspective so that his multitudinous abilities in Dungeons and Drageons can be explained. I have fashioned the character more after the Celtic and Norse types than anything else, thus he is a character who resembles a fighter more than anything else, but who knows something about the mysterious forces of magic and is well adept with his hands, etc. A Bard is a jack-of-all-trades in Dungeons and Dragons, he is both an amateur thief and magic user as well as a good fighter. He is supposedly able to extract himself from delicate situations through the use of diplomacy, but since this does not always work he is given the innate ability to charm creatures. A Bard has the thieving abilities of a thief one half his level rounded off to the lower level, thus a Bard 11th level would have the abilities of a 5th level thief. Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits may be Bards but cannot progress beyond the 8th level (Minstrel). Elves receive an extra 5% on their charm and lore scores and receive all the extra benefits of an elven thief. Dwarves and Hobbits reveive only their additional thieving benefits. A Bard may use any weapon and for purposes of hit probability he advances in steps based on four levels like clerics. For purposes of saving throws they are treated like clerics as well. The percentage listed under charm on the Bard’s statistics table reflects the percentage chance a Bard has, at each level, of mesmerizing any creature that can hear his song. However, creatures of more than three hit dice, and men types (Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, etc.) of 5th level or greater, have a higher resistance to the Bard’s charm. For every hit die above three a creature, monster, etc., has, subtract 5% from a Bard’s chances of mesmerizing it. Likewise, for every level above 4th, men subtract 5% from a Bard’s chances of mesmerizing them, and a Monk In regard to magical items, a Bard may not use any wand, staff, or rod other than those usable by Thieves and Fighters or every class. In regard to miscellaneous magic a Bard may use anything a Fighter or Thief may use or those items employable by all classes. Certain miscellaneous magical items work better in the hands of a Bard, for example a Lyre of Building negates the effects of a horn of blasting for 12 turns and acts as if 200 men had laboured for one week when a Bard plays it. Pipes of the Sewers will call 1-100 giant rats in 1-3 turns when a Bard plays them. Since Bard’s are a mixture of several classes (though they belong mainly to the class of fighters) they may benefit from many books, thus a manual of stealthy pilfering would give a Bard ¼ of the experience points needed to reach the next level, the proper Libram would award ½ of the experience points needed for the next level, and a manual of Puissant Skill at Arms would award ¾ of the points needed to gain the next level of experience. As far as damage from books goes Bards are treated as fighters. Bards may not use fighter’s potions; however, they may read scrolls due to their vast knowledge of magical runes. All defensive pluses (i.e. rings of protection, etc.) subtract 5% from the Bard’s chances of charming creatures. Bards are basically neutral in nature though they may be lawful or chaotic. If a Bard decides to become lawful he will lose his thieving abilities. Bards and Druids are closely connected and since they both belong to the same sect each must aid the other if they are in need. Bards are usually wanderers and do not like to settle down, for this reason only a Master Bard may build a castle, other Bards are expected to find short time employment or lodgings in return for their songs and legends. Bards are extremely quick at picking up languages, customs, etc., and have a vast knowledge of cults, religions, and legends. Thus Bards are allowed to speak as many different languages as their intelligence score. Bards are limited to chainmail or leather armor. If a Bard chooses to wear chainmail his chances of climbing walls and moving silently are reduced to zero. Note also that a Bard does not receive +4 to hit from behind or X2 on damage. subtracts 10% for every level he has attained from the Bard’s chances. Certain monsters have an especially high resistance to the Bard’s charm, like undead, who subtract 10% off the Bard’s chances of charming them for every hit die they Bards Name possess, and Balrogs, who have a 200% resistance to the Bard’s charm. However, Rhymer in some cases a Bard’s song may be very helpful, as in the case of the harpies’ Lyrist Sonateer song, which the Bard can negate by playing. Some monsters even consider a Bard Skald to be a great treasure and many legends are told of Dragons who refused to let Racaraide Bards stop playing their restful melodies . . . A Bard may attempt to use his Jongleur charm once per day per level. When a Bard attempts to use his charm he rolls per- Troubador centile dice once and all those creatures within hearing distance (app. 60 ft.), ex- Minstrel* cept the Bard’s own party, whose adjusted charm scores are equal to or greater Muse than the number rolled are mesmerized. While a creature is mesmerized by a Bard Lore Master it does nothing but listen to the Bard play, however, if it is distracted (by a loud Bard Master Bard noise, etc.) or if it is attacked the charm is broken. Other things affect the Bard’s Mstr. Bard 13 ability to charm; for example, if the creatures were previously enraged or if they Mstr. Bard 14 are particularly hungry, etc., the chances of charming them may be slightly Mstr. Bard 15 reduced. While a Bard has the creature mesmerized he may attempt to implant a Mstr. Bard 16 suggestion in the creature’s subconscious, these should be relatively simple Mstr. Bard 17 suggestions in the case of low intelligence creatures, the complexity of the Mstr. Bard 18 suggestion being allowed to increase with increasing intelligence of the charmed Mstr. Bard 19 Mstr. Bard 20 creature, in all cases it is wise to follow the guidelines of the third level magic Mstr, Bard 21 user’s spell ‘suggestion’ and saving throws are always applicable versus the Bard’s Mstr. Bard 22 suggestion. If a creature makes its saving throw from a Bard’s suggestion (save as Mstr. Bard 23 vs. magic) then it will immediately realize what has happened and more than likely Mstr. Bard 24 attack the party. A Bard receives experience points for charming and suggesting Mstr. Bard 25 according to the hit dice of the oppoent (treat as an assist in most cases). 11 Dice MU Spell Dist. College 6 sides 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Charm Lore 1 - - - - - - - 10% 10% Fochlucan 2 l - - - - - - 20% 20% Fochlucan 3 l - - - - - - 30% 30% Fochlucan 4 2 - - - - - 40% 40% Mac-Fuirmidh 5 3 - - - - 50% 50% Mac-Fuirmidh 6 3 1 - - - - - 60% 60% Mac-Fuirmidh 7 4 1 - - - - - 70% 70% Doss 8 4 2 - - - - - 80% 80% Doss 9 4 2 - - - - - 90% 90% Doss 10 4 2 1 - - - - 100% 100% Canaith 1 0 + 1 4 2 1 - - - - 110% 110% Canaith 1 0 + 2 4 2 2 - - - - 120% 120% Canaith 1 0 + 3 4 3 2 - - - - 130% 130% Cli 1 0 + 4 4 3 2 1 - - - 140% 140% Cli 1 0 + 5 4 3 3 1 - - - 150% 150% Cli 1 0 + 6 4 3 3 2 - - - 160% 160% Anstruth 1 0 + 7 4 3 3 2 - - - 170% 170% Anstruth 1 0 + 8 4 3 3 2 1 - - 180% 180% Anstruth 1 0 + 9 4 4 3 2 1 - - 190% 190% Ollamh 10+10 4 4 3 2 1 - - 200% 200% Ollamh 10+11 4 4 4 3 2 - - 210% 210% Ollamh 10+12 4 4 4 3 3 - - 2 2 0 % 2 2 0 % Ollamh 10+13 4 4 4 4 3 - - 230% 230% Ollamh 1 0 + 1 4 4 4 4 4 4 1 - 240% 240% Ollamh 10+15 5 5 4 4 4 2 1 250% 250% * Highest Level a Dwarf, Hobbit, or Elf can attain Exp. Pts. 0 1,000 4,000 9,000 16,000 25,000 50,000 100,000 150,000 200,000 250,000 300,000 400,000 500,000 600,000 700,000 800,000 900,000 1,000,000 1,1OO,OOO 1,200,000 1,300,000 1,400,000 1,500,000 1,600,000 THE STRATEGIC REVIEW FEBRUARY 1976 AS a Bard progresses upwards he collects followers to follow him on his journeys, these wayfarers often become his loyal servants. Therefore a Bard of the degree of Fochlucan usually has two first level followers, a Bard of Mac-Fuirmidh has one second level and two first level followers, and two second levels, a Canaith Bard has three first, two second and one third level followers, a Bard of Cli has three first, three second and two third level followers, a Bard of the Anstruth degree is attended by three first level, three second level, three third level and three fourth level followers, a Bard of the Doss degree is accompanied by two first level followers, and a Bard of the esteemed Ollamh degree is attended by four servants of each level from first level to sixth level. These servants do not have to be paid, however when one dies he is never replaced, A Bard uses the following table to determine his followers: 01-30 Bard 31-55 Druid 56-75 Fighter 76-90 Thief 91-99 Magic User 00 Roll twice ignoring 00. These characters have +3 loyalty and their characteristics should be determined. Note that if a Bard occurs, he himself will not have any followers. It is unnecessary to keep track of experience points for these servants since first level servants become second etc. as a Bard progresses through the colleges of Bard’s To become a Bard a character must have at least an average strength and intelligence. Below average dexterity reduces the Brd’s thieving abilities by ½. A Bard must also have an above average charisma, for every point above 14 a Bard adds 5% to his charming abilities.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 9, 2013 17:24:33 GMT -6
I generally do not like bards, but I like the Castles & Crusades bard. They can't cast spells, they are strong warriors, and they have a penchant for lore and inspiring greatness in their fellows. It kind of reminds me of Aragorn. Here is a quick-and-dirty conversion I did of the C&C bard into AD&D terms:
In AD&D terms, bards would use the fighter "to hit" table.
They have 10-sided hit dice.
In C&C, any race can be any class. I'd retain the AD&D limitations here.
Their xp progression is as follows:
1st level needs 0 xp 2nd level needs 1501 xp 3rd level needs 3251 xp 4th level needs 7501 xp 5th level needs 15,001 xp 6th level needs 30,001 xp 7th level needs 60,001 xp 8th level needs 120,001 xp 9th level needs 240,001 xp 10th level needs 450,001 xp 11th level needs 625,001 xp 12th level needs 800,001 xp
alignment: any
weapons allowed: broadsword, bows, club, dagger, dart, hand axe, hammers, javelin, longsword, rapier, scimitar, short sword, sling, spear, staff
armor allowed: leather, padded, ring, studded, chain, shield
They have the following special abilities:
1. At all levels, bards can attempt to read unknown languages. In AD&D terms, I'd just use thief percentages for this, giving 1st-3rd level bards a 15% chance to read languages.
2. Once per day per level, a bard can inspire his listeners, giving them a +2 bonus on die rolls (excluding to hit rolls). This bonus becomes +3 at 6th level and +4 at 12th level.
3. Legend lore: I'd retain the percentages in the AD&D PHB on page 118.
4. Beginning at 4th level, bards can attempt to fascinate creatures. In AD&D terms, I'd simply retain the charm percentage on p. 118 of the AD&D PHB. I'd adopt the C&C version's limitation on being able to do this only three times per day (rather than the seemingly unlimited times the AD&D rules allow).
5. At 9th level, bards can exhort greatness in one creature. The creature gets +2 to all "to hit" rolls, and 2 HD worth of additional temporary hit points.
;D
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Apr 9, 2013 18:32:41 GMT -6
If you think bards are all just fops and dandies who play love songs, go read The Story Of Taliesyn (sp?) and the Kalevala.
Vainamoinen managed to sneak into the afterlife and get out alive, as well as tormenting the giant Antero Viipunen into giving him magic by building a forge in Antero's stomach. If I was going up against demons, traps, and trolls, d**n straight I'd want him at my side.
Plus, if you're running a campaign with a Bard, throw in more legends and stories! M-Us don't know legends, and it's sometimes useful to carry the equivalent of a (free) Sage with you, especially when poking around ancient tombs and lost cities.
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zeraser
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 184
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Post by zeraser on Apr 9, 2013 21:19:23 GMT -6
Jumping in to point out that some players (including quite possibly bestialwarlust's) really enjoy playing a fop, a dandy, or a "pretentious musician stumbling through trouble." I certainly have.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 21:38:49 GMT -6
Bards have precedents in fantasy literature, as several people have pointed out. Maybe they're relatively weak mechanically...but should they therefore be dropped? That way lies 3e.
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Post by inkmeister on Apr 10, 2013 11:17:18 GMT -6
I never liked bards in the past, and always excluded the class beginning with 2nd edition (which is my first D&D). Now I look at D&D differently, since discovering OD&D. My OD&D is generally a two class game: you've got fighters and magic users. That's it. To me that's all that is needed to represent all sorts of concepts, including barbarians, knights, paladins, thieves, rangers, wizards, warlocks, witches, druids, priests, shaman types, etc, and including bards. So if I had a player that wanted to be a bard, I'd say "cool." I'd have a talk with the player to decide what they have in mind when they think of a bard. If it somehow involves magical powers, they are probably a magic user. If it involves more physical type tasks, then probably a fighter. And if it is some sort of combination of the two, then they can multiclass (which I handle basically 3e style). I let my players call their characters basically whatever they want, even though I run a two class game. The 2 classes just specify the most basic mechanics of the game. So while you may use the fighter class rules, you can be a thief or bard or whatever. I prefer my players to choose something more flavorful than just "fighter," since I can use their choice to help me adjudicate certain situations that may come up where the player background might have some meaningful effect. Barbarians are better at surviving in the wilderness, and thieves are better at picking locks, etc. I also find my approach pretty well addresses a lot of balance concerns in the game, since otherwise you get into problems like "omg the cleric is impinging on the fighter's specialty," or "the druid is impinging on the cleric's specialty" and so on. Keep it simple and perhaps add a little tweak here or there to please a specific player - that is my philosophy.
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