Elf = Cleric

[inkmeister]

I thought I'd pass along an idea I saw on RPG.net last week or so. Basically a fellow mentioned that he was uneasy with the implementation of clerics and elves in OD&D and classic D&D, and suggested a fascinating alteration to the game:

Only high elves can act as clerics, complete with turning and cleric spells. Wood elves would be fighters, and humans would not have access to the cleric class. This was proposed to better emulate Tolkien style worlds and to address the lack of a literary justification for the human cleric. I also like that it addresses the implicit Christianity of the cleric (nothing against Christian faith, it's just not something I want in my game).

Such an approach sets elves apart - their magic is different, more in tune with nature, and their powers against undead may represent the pure immortality of elves versus the corrupt immortality of undead. Humans on the other hand have access to a different, more volatile, dangerous sort of sorcery.

One issue to consider: it was suggested that high elves would have no weapon restrictions, which might understandably be seen as unbalancing. Perhaps they would have armor restricted instead?

Anyway I thought it was cool and the idea generated a lot of positive response at RPGnet. It would be cool to see some discussion here.

Nick

[Stormcrow]

Mar 24, 2013 11:59:55 GMT -6 inkmeister said:

to address the lack of a literary justification for the human cleric

Like I keep saying, Van Helsing.

Your proposed changes sound like they'd turn elves into supermen, and make humans into a second-class race.

[scottenkainen]

>Your proposed changes sound like they'd turn elves into supermen, and make humans into a second-class race.<

That sounds exactly like Middle Earth. I think this poster is onto something...

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

[Deleted]

It would work if player race is random. Or maybe if there's some roleplaying ''penalty'', e.g. people hate elves.

[inkmeister]

Not sure I'll go with this proposed change or not. I intend to run some games without demihumans at all. But I do think it could be balanced (ball park balance anyway - I don't think D&D in general is terribly worried about balance, nor should it be).

I think between tweaking the XP for elves (if you use XP) , restricting armor (rather than weapons), and maybe tweaking the attack progression for different classes (with LotFP being one possible, though extreme, model), you could get it good enough (for my taste anyway!).

[darkling]

I actually kind of like this plan. It creates a deep racial divide between Magic-User magic and Cleric magic and works well for the Tolkein-style flavor. You could toss in some weapon and armor restrictions if you are really worried about balance (e.g. perhaps they can only use weapons and armor of natural origin, but must eschew worked steel?)

[zeraser]

I say give it a shot. Worst case scenario, the players who choose elf characters have slightly more fun than the other players.

[Deleted]

I agree with zeraser. I'd like to see this playtested. Elves tend to be too fey and not Tolkieny enough IMO, and this addresses that problem.

[18 Spears]

Mar 24, 2013 17:21:11 GMT -6 zeraser said:

Worst case scenario...

You obviously haven't been playing long. Or you lack imagination. Or both.

[inkmeister]

I really don't think that was an appropriate comment, 18 Spears. If you have a criticism of any ideas put forth in this conversation, feel free to offer it in a more constructive way. Vigorous discussion is one thing, but there is no need for such rudeness.

[18 Spears]

Your comment's not appropiate either. I was pointing out that rules attornies can take any game and wreck it especially with not tested house rulings liek this one.

You mistake a cynical observation with rudeness.

Lay off the caffeine, dude. It's just a game.

[Deleted]

There is no comparison between "You obviously haven't been playing long. Or you lack imagination. Or both" and "I really don't think that was an appropriate comment." Your original comment was rude. It wasn't "cynical," you weren't "pointing" anything out, you were insulting someone else on the board.

You helped drive someone off this board by calling him a jackass. Why don't you stop?

[18 Spears]

Post a link to where I call someone what you said and then we'll talk or you dont have a leg to stand on.

[Deleted]

The mods deleted it, but you know d**n well what I'm talking about.

[rms]

I was in that discussion and think this idea is very interesting. I'd probably toss a few of the spells out, but most of the cleric spells tie very nicely to an elven background. In fact, I think these spells tie much nicer to the elven background than to a religious background, so like this part a lot. The idea of letting them turn undead works for me, thought I'm still thinking on it. (You almost have to keep this around for someone or else rework undead a bit.)

I think it'll balance out just fine if you allow elves access to all weapons and armor. Keeping the current cleric attack and saves tables works well enough to slow them down compared to fighters. If it really bothers someone, just limit elves to chain mail and save plate for human fighters. Maybe save large, heavy weapons for them too.

I'd probably up the XP requirement to match the fighter progression. That'd be plenty balanced for OD&D.

[Vile Traveller]

Mar 24, 2013 22:49:52 GMT -6 rms said:

The idea of letting them turn undead works for me, thought I'm still thinking on it. (You almost have to keep this around for someone or else rework undead a bit.)

Actually this reminds me of Legolas's claim that elves don't fear the dead. I can see this working in game, the idea that the dead do fear elves for some reason. Now to think of the reason!

Mar 24, 2013 22:49:52 GMT -6 rms said:

If it really bothers someone, just limit elves to chain mail and save plate for human fighters.

I like this, it's what I'm doing in BLUEHOLME 2nd edition. It has a kind of symmetry to it:

Fighter (plate) / Cleric (chain) / Thief (leather) / Magic-User (none)

[zeraser]

Mar 24, 2013 19:31:26 GMT -6 18 Spears said:

Your comment's not appropiate either. I was pointing out that rules attornies can take any game and wreck it especially with not tested house rulings liek this one.

You mistake a cynical observation with rudeness.

Lay off the caffeine, dude. It's just a game.

No caffeine here, and I came away with the same impression as sirravd. Your comment was rude. And wrong: Not that it's any of your business, but I've been playing for about 20 years and nobody ever told me I was an especially unimaginative person.

If indeed it's "just a game," then we shouldn't be so precious with the rules that we hesitate to jump in and try new things. If the scenario you described were to happen, I'd have to stand up and pinch myself, because it would mean that the people at my table are uncool people. That hasn't happened in recent memory. I play with my friends (as I imagine do most of you), and my friends would never wreck the game.

[Vile Traveller]

Gents: odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=userrecentposts&user=18spears

[Sean Michael Kelly]

The more I read the on-topic conversations in this thread the more I'm liking this elf/cleric idea. Of course, it almost seems more druidic than cleric, but assuming the 3 original classes/races and leaving out any real-world religious connotations, I like that Tolkien-ish flavor to it.

Make no mistake, I love Tolkien's writings and his MiddleEarth and have since the late 70's, early 80's. I had read the Hobbit before I had ever discovered that beautiful red box in 1981. :-) So this, resonates with me. I may have to offer up some of the ideas to my players!

[cooper]

While I do like the idea. The fighter explicitely has two special abilities. Magic swords (huge deal if playing BtB) and hit dice. The use of magic swords really should be addressed if the class is to balanced. I don't see why elves need to use swords if players are fine with the cognitive dissonance of normal clerics refusing to use them. Limiting them to chain armor (no plate) would work if you played BtB and all magic armor was plate.

[Vile Traveller]

What about limiting elves to non-intelligent magic swords while making the majority of magic swords intelligent?

[talysman]

Mar 25, 2013 3:33:00 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

Mar 24, 2013 22:49:52 GMT -6 rms said:

The idea of letting them turn undead works for me, thought I'm still thinking on it. (You almost have to keep this around for someone or else rework undead a bit.)

Actually this reminds me of Legolas's claim that elves don't fear the dead. I can see this working in game, the idea that the dead do fear elves for some reason. Now to think of the reason!

How about: the undead are unnatural, and elves can command nature to turn against them? Sort of fits in with what happened to the Nazghul who tried to cross into Rivendell... Glorfindel "turned" them.

I'm thinking if you used the usual multiclass method, but changed one of those classes to "cleric", or perhaps just keep elves as F/MU but using the cleric spell list and the Turn Undead ability, then you have nothing to worry about as far as magic swords and armor. If you're specifically doing it to make a more Middle Earth-ish setting, it even fits: elves are the ones who make magic swords and armor, so why wouldn't they be able to use 'em?

I was re-imagining elves for my setting, and part of the trick I did to make distinctive elven tribes was to keep them all as F/MU, but change the spell list. So, "Light Elves" live in glacier castles and use the Illusionist list, "Wood Elves" use the Druid list, standard elves use the MU list... but they could just as easily use the Cleric spell list.

[inkmeister]

I agree that by the book, fighters really lean on magic swords as part of what is special about the fighter. I don't play by the book so much in this regard, but am instead experimenting more in the direction of LotFP with regard to attack progressions and weapon restrictions (ie only the fighter improves at combat and clerics CAN use all weapon types - IIRC). I think LotFP's approach is elegant and makes more sense in terms of fiction. Anyhow, it seems fine for my game where, at the moment, there are only two classes - fighters and magic users. I am seriously interested in this Elf = cleric business, though, and may include it. I think it's a good point that it could work especially well if the elf is a multi-class as in the original rules, but substituting the cleric role for the magic user role for the elf.

Anyway, like several others here, I'm not particularly worried about game balance in this situation.

Nick

[Malcadon]

Although I usually avoid the Tolkienesque and fairytale elements, but for some reason, what I do use them, I like make elves natural Druids. The special abilities and strong connection to nature seems like a natural fit for what I think of an elf. This would come into play as a race-as-a-class deal, where their druid abilities are normal features of the race, then benefits/restrictions of the class. That is, elves would burn their skin if they touch iron, so they avoid metals altogether. This is exclusive to elves and other fairy-folk, so humans who call themselves "Druids," are just specialized Magic-users with Druid spells, and maybe lycanthropy. I use the MU for all spell-casting types, as I do not like the Cleric class (it never made sense to me).

Druids in my game - both human and elven - are oddball hermits, who strut around naked, and have a mannerism of a Cloudcuckoolander. Oddly enough, a number of my players love kooky stuff like that.

[llenlleawg]

This is an interesting proposal. I must admit from the outset that I rather like the "fairy tale" Christianity implicit in the game and embodied in the cleric class, as well as the divide between the cleric and the New Faith on the one hand, and the Old Ways and sorcery on the other. Consider it a preference for Three Hearts and Three Lions over, say, Conan.

Anyway, if you didn't want (pseudo-)Christianity in the game, then I think that this would be an excellent solution. It makes elves somewhat "naturally" magical, especially if you allow them (as per clerics in Greyhawk) access to all spells without use of a spell book. For my part, I would keep magical swords out of the hands of elves, at least the "clerical" ones, and basically leave the class as it is. I might even allow "wood elves" to use the ordinary rules for elves, viz. as fighter/magic users. They would represent those elves that had committed to live in this world, and so have access to the (more corrupt and Chaotic) magic of this age, while the "high elves" would use the purer magic of the First Age (and so also have power over undead, which wood elves retain in their heritage power to resist the paralysis of ghouls).

For what it's worth, you might allow humans (and only humans) to be anti-Clerics. Or, taking a page from the original presentation of druids as cleric/magic user hybrids, you could port over/tweak the rules for half-elves for the pagan ways (i.e. being allowed to progress as both magic users and clerics, up to 6th and 4th levels respectively).

[Vile Traveller]

Hmm, I admit I also like the sort of amorphous, Averoigne-like, pseudo-Christian clergy implicit in OD&D and Holmes, counterbalanced by evil clerics of nasty cults that are invariably small and revolve around some ancient almost-forgotten demonic idol ...

This thread has got me thinking about keeping the clerics and magic-users on their respective sides of the fence, and maybe adapting druidic magic for elves.

[machpants]

My hack up of S&W to play with my boys uses this after I saw the thread on RPGNow. They have no preconceived notions of DnD (and certainly no Christian notions) so for them Elves will just use different magic.
FWIW I am giving them all weps leather armour and magical chain and they cast spells on the fly. However I will be gaming with only 2 kids so I am upping the power of the PCs to take this into account.

[Malcadon]

Beyond the Divine Comedy elements of Hell, I don't think I ever incorporated elements of Christianity into my games. I consider Christian-themes in fantasy - even the fake ones - to be passe. Although the pantheons of the ancient world are just as passe in fantasy, they do leave a lot more room for creating highly unique elements.

[Deleted]

I have two types of elves IMC: high elves that conform mostly to the OD&D elf, and wood elves that are basically clerics but with druid spells.

The high elves are a broken and fading people, the wood elves have adapted to world as it changed and, while they are not exactly thriving, they are not dying out either.

Metagaming: this way I can keep magic-using high elves rare while still giving players the option to play them if they so desire. At the same time, I can have my vision for the nature type of elves (the wood elves) be the more "normal" type of elf encountered.

[rabindranath72]

Note that the Alfheim Gazetteer for the late Mentzer edited D&D has a spell list for elves which mixes magic-user, druid and cleric spells. Essentially, cleric and druid spells are considered MU spells of two levels higher. So a cure light wounds spells is a 3rd level spell.
It's an interesting take on the class, and it works quite well in play, so I suppose something similar could work for OD&D; just assume that XP is split between fighting man and cleric.