Elves +1 with sword origin

[oldkat]

I am at a loss, for I cannot find a passage in M&M within the Elves description--or anywhere else in Vol.1--where this iconic mechanic is mentioned. I assumed it started here, but, according to my research, this is a misconception.

From what I have read, M&T is the only mention of this ability, to be found under the section dealing with Elves (p.16) where it states that "Elves armed with magical swords will add one pip* to dice rolled to determine damage" *point

Assuming that what applies to Elves in M&T applies to PC elves in M&M(a post Holmes paradigm, I admit), then it would seem elves add 1 to damage with any magical sword, and in addition to any other bonuses to damage that are specifically laid out in the sword description.

Am I looking at this wrong?

Note: please pardon me if this subject has been beat to death already.

[cooper]

Magic swords don't add the + to damage, only to hit. So, the elf gets +1 to hit and +1 damage with a magic sword +1.

This is a simplification (and alteration) from the rules in CHAINMAIL, where elven quasi-heroes (an elf with a magic sword) does varying extra damage to goblins, orcs, ogres, and trolls. It was simplified into a simple +1 in men and magic.

basically, elven quasi-heros on the man to man table got to roll 3d6 instead of 2d6 attack roll (a +1 die) against goblins they got to roll +3 die, orcs +2 die, and against ogres they did double damage.

This is somewhat deceiving, as anyone with a magic sword got to roll an extra attack die when using a magic sword in man to man combat, so to translate it, elves armed with magic swords really only got a +2 vs goblins and a +1 vs. orcs.

There was no + to using a magic sword on the FCT, as elves couldn't attack on the FCT without a magic sword in the first place, being able to use the table at all was bonus enough.

Fast forward to D&D. Magic swords give a +1 to the attack roll and because the elf armed with a magic sword had all those abilities in chain mail, an extra bonus of +1 damage was given to the race in lieu of (actually in addition to...) extra damage/to hit against goblins, orcs, and ogres.

[waysoftheearth]

Nothing to do with the origins of stuff, but it's interesting to note that...

The Alternative Combat System has three overlapping mechanisms for adjudicating damage output;

a) To hit adjustments,
b) Damage adjustments,
c) Number of attacks.

I looked at how to hit and damage adjustments stack up a while back (see here).

The net effect of all that was that:
-2 to hit @1d6 hp is equivalent to +0 to hit @1d4 hp,
+2 to hit @1d6 hp is equivalent to +0 to hit @1d8 hp,
+4 to hit @1d6 hp is equivalent to +0 to hit @1d10 hp,
etc.

So a +1 damage adjustment is more-or-less equivalent to a +2 "to hit" adjustment -- in terms of average damage dealt over time.

Therefore, an Elf's +1 damage adjustment with magical weapons could, theoretically, be exchanged for a +2 to hit adjustment without overtly altering the game.

Interestingly, it was instead exchanged for a +1 to hit adjustment in AD&D.

[Jonathan Miller]

From Supplement I: Greyhawk (12th printing, November 1979), p. 69 (Corrections): "All elves add +1 to their hit probability when using sword or bow."

It's after M&T but it may be the first reference to player character elves getting a bonus to hit with sword.

[oldkat]

Yes! I see it in my printing too. Thanks for the redirect. So, what if one is playing (and wants to ignore the latter)early printings?

[Deleted]

Then the rule didn't exist yet.

[runequester]

We use the Greyhawk +1 to hit with bow and sword, but a +1 to damage would be rather interesting. With so few damage increases around, it'd make elves rather scary

[Sean Michael Kelly]

Jan 27, 2013 5:23:16 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Nothing to do with the origins of stuff, but it's interesting to note that...

The Alternative Combat System has three overlapping mechanisms for adjudicating damage output;

a) To hit adjustments,
b) Damage adjustments,
c) Number of attacks.

I looked at how to hit and damage adjustments stack up a while back (see here).

The net effect of all that was that:
-2 to hit @1d6 hp is equivalent to +0 to hit @1d4 hp,
+2 to hit @1d6 hp is equivalent to +0 to hit @1d8 hp,
+4 to hit @1d6 hp is equivalent to +0 to hit @1d10 hp,
etc.

So a +1 damage adjustment is more-or-less equivalent to a +2 "to hit" adjustment -- in terms of average damage dealt over time.

Therefore, an Elf's +1 damage adjustment with magical weapons could, theoretically, be exchanged for a +2 to hit adjustment without overtly altering the game.

Interestingly, it was instead exchanged for a +1 to hit adjustment in AD&D.

Simon, this indeed, is interesting. You guys and your statistics (admittedly in small quantities) can really help me appreciate the mathematics involved.

[rabindranath72]

Sorry for the thread necromancy!
I am toying with the idea of porting some OD&D stuff to B/X, one of these would be the demihuman abilities, including the elf's racial abilities.
So if I didn't use Chainmail, the special ability of elves against some monsters (also referenced in the half-elf description in Greyhawk) would translate simply into the +1 to hit with sword and bow in the Greyhawk correction text?

[Deleted]

That seems a reasonable ruling.