2d6 Combat and Carcosa

[CivilianZero]

While preparing for my upcoming Carcosa game, I've fully intended to use the Chainmail style 2d6 combat (using the chart for weapons vs armor found in the Ready Ref Sheets) as I am never very happy with the percentages and probabilities of using a d20 for combat (but that's another post altogether).

However, in my excitement I overlooked one very important factor: Space Alien weapons. I have no idea how to work them into this without creating a new section on the chart (or the one for ranged weapons I have written down, source unknown). But I don't want to do that. I don't believe I have the expertise to do that.

Is there anyway to remedy this without resorting to the "Alternative Combat" method (aka d20)? I want to make sure the SA weapons feel sufficiently powerful and not just shoehorn them in as "Heavy Bow that fires lasers".

Is there anyone here who has used OD&D with Chainmail-ish combat and how did you handle this? Or is there anyone who has some ideas on the subject regardless of past methods?

[Mushgnome]

I treat space alien weapons as 'arquebus' in my Chainmail Carcosa game, which makes them plenty powerful. Another option is to treat them as Hero-tier attacks on the Fantasy combat table; if you do this, space alien weapons ignore armor, making them effectively 'touch' attacks.

[CivilianZero]

Thanks very much. I quite like both of those ideas.

One question: I've always been fuzzy on how to handle Fantasy Combat against a normal man. For instance if a level one PC gets shot at by a SA weapon or a higher level PC shoots a bandit or villager with a SA weapon. How do you handle this?

I know that's a little off topic and more catered to the Chainmail-specific board, but I just figured I'd ask if it can be easily answered.

Thanks again.

[Mushgnome]

Normal men never attack on the Fantasy table in my campaign (you must attain 3rd level or the fighting capability of "hero - 1" to earn that privilege). Instead I would use the Man-to-Man table, arquebus vs. the defender's armor class (or treat all as AC9 if you're going for the touch attack effect).

[CivilianZero]

Okay, that's what I thought, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something about Fantasy Combat that is less obvious to someone like me, looking back at the rules from a "modern" perspective (if that makes any sense).

Thanks for all the help. The biggest complication with my game has now been solved. Thank you very much.

And if you have any other suggestions/tips for running a game like this I'd really appreciate it, but you've already helped more than enough.

[CivilianZero]

On a somewhat related note, does anyone have any suggestions for how to associate Carcosa monsters with the Fantasy Combat table? I have some ideas, but nothing feels...certain.

[Finarvyn]

Old thread, but I'm curious about the answer. Seems like once you adopt a 2d6 "Chainmail style" combat system then using the Fantasy Combat Table is a logical next step. Anyone adapt the FCT for Carcosa's monsters?

[CivilianZero]

I sadly never got around to it, but I might be attempting it soon. Though I'd be fine if it turns out someone else had done the work already

[Red Baron]

It would be an effort of futility to try to ascribe to hit numbers to carcosan monsters as part of the charm of carcosa is running into some horrible monstrosity the dm just pulled out of his ass based on a b movie he saw last weekend.

It would be wiser to come up with some typer of method for giving monsters a number needed to hit them on the FTC on the fly.

Squishy Flesh - 7
Tough Hide - 8
Iron Plated - 9

add 2 if its especially tough or ferocious or an android.

add an additional 1 if its also some lovecraftian horror.

[Mushgnome]

Apr 28, 2014 17:16:49 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Old thread, but I'm curious about the answer. Seems like once you adopt a 2d6 "Chainmail style" combat system then using the Fantasy Combat Table is a logical next step. Anyone adapt the FCT for Carcosa's monsters?

Some of the characters in my Chainmail Carcosa campaign triumphantly achieved Hero-status in the process of winning the campaign. They went 8 rounds with a 50HD Torch-Wielding Copper Colossus whose limbs fought as various Horse and whose body was a FCT giant. The Chainmail rules proved to be immersive and elegant in play.

odd74.proboards.com/thread/8501/episode-20-big-head

Sadly, the show was canceled after 1 season due to budget cuts at the station... the exploding CG dinosaurs were costly to animate, not to mention all the union trouble organizing the Deep One extras.

[Finarvyn]

May 16, 2014 6:16:43 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

It would be wiser to come up with some typer of method for giving monsters a number needed to hit them on the FTC on the fly.

Squishy Flesh - 7
Tough Hide - 8
Iron Plated - 9

add 2 if its especially tough or ferocious or an android.

add an additional 1 if its also some lovecraftian horror.

Brilliant! Your "on the fly" method is awesome! Consider it snagged for my game!

[CivilianZero]

May 17, 2014 4:34:00 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

May 16, 2014 6:16:43 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

It would be wiser to come up with some typer of method for giving monsters a number needed to hit them on the FTC on the fly.

Squishy Flesh - 7
Tough Hide - 8
Iron Plated - 9

add 2 if its especially tough or ferocious or an android.

add an additional 1 if its also some lovecraftian horror.

Brilliant! Your "on the fly" method is awesome! Consider it snagged for my game!

I too will be using this So thanks very much for your brilliant idea.

[waysoftheearth]

May 16, 2014 6:16:43 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

It would be wiser to come up with some typer of method for giving monsters a number needed to hit them on the FTC on the fly.

Squishy Flesh - 7
Tough Hide - 8
Iron Plated - 9

add 2 if its especially tough or ferocious or an android.

add an additional 1 if its also some lovecraftian horror.

But how does this work?

The FCT contains two pieces of information for each monster:

1. What an opponent of any particular type needs to roll to destroy the monster (I think you've captured this for one possible type of opponent, perhaps a hero?)
2. What the monster needs to roll to destroy each other type of monster.

The beauty of the FCT is that you can't (accurately) derive figures for the named monsters according to general a formula; they differ. Each named monster has its own unique quirks on the FCT.

E.g., heroes and lycanthropes (both 4HD in OD&D) have different figures; lycanthropes are better vs balrogs, giants, and wizards, but heroes are better vs elementals, and wraiths.

On the other side of the coin, lycanthropes are more vulnerable to dragons and "wights and ghouls" than are heroes, while heroes are more vulnerable to rocs and wraiths than are lycans.

[Mushgnome]

May 18, 2014 7:19:35 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

The beauty of the FCT is that you can't (accurately) derive figures for the named monsters according to general a formula; they differ. Each named monster has its own unique quirks on the FCT.

E.g., heroes and lycanthropes (both 4HD in OD&D) have different figures; lycanthropes are better vs balrogs, giants, and wizards, but heroes are better vs elementals, lycanthropes, and wraiths.

I think both approaches have merit.

In the case of Chainmail, Gygax was meticulous and scoured the primary literature for contemporary accounts of fantasy combat: balrog vs. roc, lycanthrope vs. giant, wight vs. troll, etc. (It is the same level of detail he put into the Man-to-Man table: all those hours in the backyard slamming flails and axes into various types of armor to determine realistic to-hit probabilities.)

But when we move to Carcosa I think it is good to use a more abstract system. How do we really know, for example, whether a shoggoth or a dhole would be the more effective opponent vs. The Putrescent Stench? The historical data is lacking, and so it might be good to invent an abstracted system, so the DM can make an educated guess on the fly.

The beauty of D&D's alternate combat system (d20) is that it reduces the equation to just two variables: hit dice and armor class. I love "quirks" too, but I think it is telling that here we are decades later still trying to figure whether or not there is any underlying logic or pattern behind the FCT.

[waysoftheearth]

That's cool, but I still don't understand how the suggested method is meant to work.

Do ghouls, heroes, superheroes and dragons all need to roll a 7+ to kill a Shoggoth?

And what does a Shoggoth need to roll to kill a ghoul, hero, superhero, or dragon?

[CivilianZero]

I'd think the purpose is to estimate the numbers a hero would need to roll.

Beyond that, comparison and DM fiat would be the deciding factors.

[jdjarvis]

I posted a take on a Carcosan Fantasy Combat Table based on the chainmail one on my blog.
aeonsnaugauries.blogspot.com/2014/05/a-thread-on-orginal-d-forum-on-2d6.html

I took some of the carcosan horrors and mapped them onto very rough equivalents on the original FCT with a couple additions.