|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Sept 26, 2012 21:27:57 GMT -6
The common wisdom, and statements from those who were there, say that when using the man-to-man tables from Chainmail with D&D, characters with classes get one roll on the table per level.
Where does it say this?
Sure, there's mention that when monsters attack normal men they get multiple rolls. But that's a far cry from saying that characters with classes get one roll per character level. It speaks only of monsters and only of mundane combat.
Is there any way, using only Chainmail and the original D&D set, that one could derive this idea?
|
|
|
|
Post by coffee on Sept 27, 2012 4:02:38 GMT -6
Men and Magic, fighting capability, on the level tables, pp. 17-18.
For instance, a level 3 fighting man (swordsman) fights as 3 men or hero -1.
A level 5 magic-user (thaumaturgist) fights as 3 men.
So it's not a direct 'one attack per level' thing. But it is in there.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Sept 27, 2012 9:08:19 GMT -6
No, I'm talking about the people who claim that you get one roll on the man-to-man tables per character level, and that Fighting Capability refers to the skirmish and fantasy tables only.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mushgnome on Sept 27, 2012 9:24:24 GMT -6
No, I'm talking about the people who claim that you get one roll on the man-to-man tables per character level, and that Fighting Capability refers to the skirmish and fantasy tables only. I have never heard that claimed on these forums, have you? Link?? |
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Sept 27, 2012 9:31:35 GMT -6
It's from the FAQ in Strategic Review, I think. A 4trh level (Hero) fighter, for example, would get 4 attacks against creatures of 1 HD or less wile an 8th level (Super Hero) fighter would get 8 attacks. That's why it's so important to have elves and dwarves have 1+1 HD, so that they don't fall into that rule.  |
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Sept 27, 2012 9:33:15 GMT -6
The common wisdom, and statements from those who were there, say that when using the man-to-man tables from Chainmail with D&D, characters with classes get one roll on the table per level. I think it's more like one attack per HD, not per level. Pretty much what Coffee quoted, I think. No, I'm talking about the people who claim that you get one roll on the man-to-man tables per character level, and that Fighting Capability refers to the skirmish and fantasy tables only. Hmm. In re-reading this comment I guess I'm not sure if I've at all answered what you asked.  |
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Sept 27, 2012 9:52:55 GMT -6
It's from the FAQ in Strategic Review, I think. No, that uses the alternate system in Men & Magic. I think it's more like one attack per HD, not per level. Pretty much what Coffee quoted, I think. The two aren't the same. For instance, a Vicar has 4 HD and a Fighting Capability of 3 Men. Also note that in the explanation of Hit Dice on p. 20 of Men & Magic it only describes generation of hit points; it doesn't say anything about using Hit Dice for characters to determine combat ability. |
|
|
|
Post by Mushgnome on Sept 27, 2012 10:18:07 GMT -6
It's from the FAQ in Strategic Review, I think. A 4trh level (Hero) fighter, for example, would get 4 attacks against creatures of 1 HD or less wile an 8th level (Super Hero) fighter would get 8 attacks. That's why it's so important to have elves and dwarves have 1+1 HD, so that they don't fall into that rule. Isn't that talking about D&D and not Chainmail? Also it is a big cognitive leap from "fighting capability: 2 men" to "gets 2 attacks." I understand it is a logical conclusion, but it is not the only possible interpretation. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 10:25:14 GMT -6
Isn't that talking about D&D and not Chainmail? Some folks think it is an example of combat using Chainmail's rules, and others believe it an example of using the alternative combat system and skillful adjudication by the referee. There are some pretty passionate folks on both sides of the question. You already know this, I'm certain, but in the end you should go with what is "fun" in your campaign. |
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Sept 27, 2012 15:14:50 GMT -6
Cameron is wise. The "answer" clearly is find whatever works for you and stick to it. I've done this different ways in different campaigns over the decades and still can't identify a single way that I like the best. |
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Sept 27, 2012 17:57:47 GMT -6
Originally, the different combat systems weren't really designed to cross pollinate. They were all included in the original rules, as gygax and arneson could not be certain which combat system groups would want to use. So, they provided them all. They provided the mass combat system, "fights as 3 men", they also included the fantasy combat system, "fights as hero-1", as well as the new alternate system.
What you are asking is, basically, did they include rules for mixing the different systems. "Can your hero-1 attack 3 times on the FCT and get a bonus to hit because he's using a mace against plate armor?" Is another question along the same line as your, "can you attack 3 times on the MtM table."
I think it is clear that they assumed different groups would use different combat systems, or use multiple combat systems at different times. The strategic review article is an attempt to combine all systems into one master system and the weapon vs. armor table in Greyhawk was the last step of this process.
multiple attacks against normal foes (mass combat)
heroes having an easier time landing a single blow against monsters (thaco0 and FCT)
a mace getting a + to hit against plate armor (man to man)
all finally combined in the greyhawk supplement.
Personally, I think the man to man table is best used with the alternate combat system instead of the mass combat system, which is to say a normal man uses the MtM system as is and a veteran uses the MtM combat system with a +1 on all rolls, and a hero uses the MtM system with a +3 on his single attack, instead of attacking 3 times.
To answer your question: Can the idea that heroes attack multiple times against normal foes be understood from the rules? Yes. If you understand that a "character" is just a hero unit in chain mail no different than an anti-hero or monster unit. A player who buys a troll unit gets a critter who can fight on the FCT as well as wade through 6 normal men per round, and a player who point-buys a hero unit (aragorn or gandalf et al) has a critter who can fight on the FCT as well as cut through 4 or more goblins each round. The troll specifically fights as "6 men" and the hero specifically fights as "4 men". It's quite clear in CM that they get multiple attacks.
What's not clear, and is up to each group to decide, is that if you are mixing your combat systems, how should you go about doing so. The alternate combat system+strategic review+greyhawk was such an attempt. There is no advice on how to attack multiple times on the MtM table, but then again, there are no guidlines on how to adjust the FCT for different armor and weapons!
|
|
|
|
Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Sept 28, 2012 6:46:53 GMT -6
.... {1}Where does it say this? .... {2}Is there any way, using only Chainmail and the original D&D set, that one could derive this idea? To answer the questions in order. 1. It doesn't per se. 2. No, but your results may vary. Neither Chainmail nor the 3lbb's were ever intended to be "fine-toothed" by rule lawyers. All was given as guidelines and suggestions with occasional overlaps and/or paradox. To argue long over semantics beyond simple recreational banter is a moot point. One was expected to take or leave the suggestions and house-rule or table-rule any gaps if needed. Primary purpose... to have fun. If the end has been achieved, the means have been justified. [invoking Kreb's Rule of Gaming here] Enjoy! |
|
