Cost of Item Enchantment

[Deleted]

So, I'm wondering if anyone has an alternative way of creating magic items that won't allow them to be as cheap as they are now?

Currently, a Ring +1 is 5,000 gp and a Ring +5 is 25,000 gp. Plate mail is 10,000 gp per +1 bonus and a Shield is 3,000 gp per +1 bonus.

Now find an adventurer with 15 levels and he can pay for the following fairly easily.

Platemail +5 50,000 gp (AC -2)
Shield +5 15,000 gp (AC -8)
Ring +5 25,000 gp (AC -13)
Ring +5 25,000 gp (AC -18)
Necklace +5 25,000 gp (AC -23)
optional
Cloak +5 25,000 gp (AC -28)
Circlet (head piece) +5 25,000 gp (AC -33)
Sword +5 15,000 gp

Cost of hiring a high level wizard -500 gp per level per month. So, roughly 18,000 gp per month, for an ubber 36th level wizard, with a need for cash.

Essentially, what I've shown above is 205,000 gp in cost. Time to enchant all the items is 56 days for 8 items + 205 days for the 205k of gp. So in 261 days, your basic warrior can go from an average lvl. 15 warrior with some good items to superman, for the basic price of 190k for cost + 216k for wizard expenses (18k x 12 months).

I mean, that seems a bit un-holy to me, to be able to spend 406k gp and have an AC of -33. Any thoughts?

[Finarvyn]

First of all, where are you finding your price estimates? Men & Magic (p.7) has a very limited list of magic item prices and I can't recall one anywhere else in OD&D. If you are thinking of AD&D, the coin values may not directly convert.

Anyhow, a few things come to mind:
1) What level of magic-user is needed to create a +5 anything? This factor alone might limit how powerful the items are in the first place, depending upon the level range in your campaign.
2) What about time? M&M (again, p.7) suggests that enchanting armor to +1 takes two months, so +5 armor should take a minimum of 10 months, even if the time doesn't get progressively longer and longer as the enchantment bonus rises.
3) If you find a magic-user of appropriate level, who says he will be willling to drop his own personal magical research just to spend years of his life making items for sale?

I guess there are many ways to limit the characters. Just a few ideas off the top of my head.

[Finarvyn]

4) It also occurs to me that Greyhawk seems to limit the bonus on rings of protection and cloaks of protection to +3. While this doesn't exclude the possiblilty that one might have a greater bonus, it would be easy enough to use this limitation.
5) I worry a little about adding the extras like necklace and circlet. Where does it end? Could the character buy "shoes of protection" or "underwear of protection" as well?

At what point does the GM step in and just say "enough?"

[waysoftheearth]

Hi Saxonation, welcome to the boards

Sept 18, 2012 3:25:32 GMT -6 @saxonation said:

to be able to spend 406k gp and have an AC of -33. Any thoughts?

Firstly... a pile of 400,000 gp would be one heck of a "bad guy" magnet.
And having a pile of gold doesn't automatically make items available for sale.

That aside there are very few items in OD&D above +3 (though Greyhawk adds a few).

But even supposing a player did acquire plate armour +3 and a shield +3 they don't "stack" to provide a +6 adjustment to AC.

M&T (page 31) says

If the shield's bonus is greater than that of the armor there is a one third chance that the blow will be caught by the shield, thus giving the additional subtraction.

So a shield +2 has no additional effect over armour +2, and a shield +3 has a one third chance of being considered over armour +2, for each attack.

I am also reasonably confident that the "doesn't stack" principle applies everywhere else in OD&D too. So an additional ring of protection +3 would not adjust AC any further -- although it would still add +3 to saving throws.

Hope this helps

[Deleted]

One solution is not allowing magical AC bonuses to stack. This is hinted at in OD&D with the ring of protection.

So: magical armor would boost AC, this could be be augmented by one +X device (such as a shield +2). Any other device modifying AC would simply not work. A generous referee might allow the most beneficial one to work.

It was not the ring, but a spell that gives an idea for not "stacking" protective magic:

Protection from Evil: This spell hedges the conjurer round with a magic circle to keep out attacks from enchanted monsters.
It also serves as an "armor" from various evil attacks, adding a + 1 to all saving throws and taking a -1 from hit dice of evil
opponents. (Note that this spell is not cumulative in effect with magic armor and rings, although it will continue to keep out
enchanted monsters.) Duration: 6 turns.

[geoffrey]

How about "Wizard Research Rules" by Charles Preston Goforth, Jr. in The Dragon #5 (March 1977), which are also reprinted in the first Best of the Dragon compilation?

[Deleted]

If memory serves, there is also a set of rules in 2nd Edition AD&D that deal with magic item creation? I'm not overly familiar with them, but I seem to recall.

[jcstephens]

Make the stated amount the cost of materials if you can find them for sale nearby. Most likely they'll have to be sent for. First Fantasy Campaign has some ideas for making this a challenge. THEN there's the cost of hiring someone to do the work. That can get interesting - and pricy. And what happens when the Dwarf you hired to make a sword decides to run off with it? Magic items should NEVER be a matter of just 'writing a check', one way or another people should have to work for them!

[talysman]

Count me as another one on the "bonuses don't stack" side of the argument. I was aware of the armor+shield, ring of protection, and Protection from Evil spell rules, and I think there were a couple other places that make it clear defensive bonuses don't stack; multiple magic items may provide separate effects, like a defense bonus and immunity to fire, but the maximum bonus from anything is +3, and that's rare.

I kind of think 11th level wizards should be rare, too, particularly considering the high death toll among PCs. Of course, this depends on the play style, but I've never been in or run a campaign where anyone made it to 8th level. I figure there should be 3 to 5 actual wizards in the known world, and most of those are villains. They simply aren't going to be available for hire: your interests are not *their* interests.

[Deleted]

My general rule of thumb regarding magical armor and bonuses is this:

If it grants a specific armor class, such as Bracers of Protection AC 4, then it will work with one other device granting an AC bonus such as a Ring of Protection +1; for an AC of 3.

I think I got that from a later edition of the game, but I'm not sure. It seemed a pretty sensible ruling and I ran with it.

[Finarvyn]

Sept 18, 2012 7:10:11 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

But even supposing a player did acquire plate armour +3 and a shield +3 they don't "stack" to provide a +6 adjustment to AC.

M&T (page 31) says

If the shield's bonus is greater than that of the armor there is a one third chance that the blow will be caught by the shield, thus giving the additional subtraction.

Dang. All those years of playing OD&D and I don't remember that quote. We always stacked armor and shield bonus.

I'll have to look at my books for this when I get home, not that I doubt your ability to quote a rulebook.

[Deleted]

This is the Original D&D discussion board isn't it? Well, to the best of my knowledge Rings+Armor+Shield stack. Unless, I'm somehow on the wrong board?

As far as cost of enchantment.
Armor = Cost x Weight / 3 (Min. 3000 for armor)
Weapon = Cost x Weight x 5 (Min. 3000 for armor)
Spell Effects = spell level x 5 (Min. 200 for weapons)

So

Platemail is 60 x 500 / 3 = 10,000 per bonus
Shield is 10 x 100 / 3 = 3,000 minimum per bonus
Sword is 10 x 60 x 5 = 3,000 per bonus

As for Men and Magic, what is that?

In regards to 400k in gp. none of my players are dumb enough to carry that much cash, otherwise they'd have gotten robbed a long time ago. But a Pouch of Security has a tendency of protecting their 5k gems from the most likely culprits. And that's not counting the cash they keep in the Bank of Thyatis, Karemeikos, Darokin and Minothroad.

[mgtremaine]

Sept 18, 2012 18:33:18 GMT -6 @saxonation said:

This is the Original D&D discussion board isn't it? Well, to the best of my knowledge Rings+Armor+Shield stack. Unless, you can prove otherwise.

Page 31 Monters & Treasure

ARMOR: Armor proper subtracts its bonus from the hit dice of the opponents of its wearer. If the shield's bonus is greater than that of the armor there is a one- third chance that the blow will be caught by the shield, thus giving the additional subtraction.

Armor and Shield do not stack, and properly the do not lower your Armor Class they reduce the to hit of your foe.

As far as cost of enchantment.
Armor = Cost x Weight / 3 (Min. 3000 for armor)
Weapon = Cost x Weight x 5 (Min. 3000 for armor)
Spell Effects = spell level x 5 (Min. 200 for weapons)
.
.
As for Men and Magic, what is that?

As Fin asked where are you getting this from? He pointed out Pg 7 of Men & Magic, which is Vol 1 of the Original Dungeons & Dragons game.

The info listed there has this for Armor

Enchanting Armor to +1 2,000 Gold Pieces + 2 months

The rest of your post makes it seem that perhaps you are not playing OD&D, which is fine. I think perhaps you are talking about B/X D&D or maybe BEMCI D&D... But again we were just wondering where you are getting you info. Your original question was asked and answered in various ways. I'm not sure what else you need to know other then welcome to the problem of high level power games, it's one of the trickiest parts of long running games. In the long running game my friends and I played from age 13 to 35 there was a hard limit of AC -10 unless you had a shield which made the limit AC -11... Nothing was ever higher then that. [Of course they had "War devices" which gave a % chance of deflecting any blow but that was a whole other problem ]


-Mike

[Deleted]

I think you may be right, I was talking about Classic D&D or Mystara D&D which I commonly see referred to as OD&D. Sorry, I'll assume this is a different kind of game?

[mgtremaine]

opps you replied before I was done edited my self

-Mike

[Deleted]

Sept 18, 2012 18:57:34 GMT -6 @saxonation said:

I think you may be right, I was talking about Classic D&D or Mystara D&D which I commonly see referred to as OD&D. Sorry, I'll assume this is a different kind of game?

OD&D is used here to refer to the 1974 boxed set edition of the game. It consisted of the three little brown books, or TLBB.

Classic D&D, that you've described above, is referred to either as Classic or BD&D (for basic D&D).

I hope this helps.

[talysman]

Sept 18, 2012 18:57:34 GMT -6 @saxonation said:

I think you may be right, I was talking about Classic D&D or Mystara D&D which I commonly see referred to as OD&D. Sorry, I'll assume this is a different kind of game?

It's the original kind of game!

Mystara would be BECMI, I believe. In between OD&D and BECMI are two other interpretations of the original rules: Holmes and B/X. And AD&D had been in print a while by the time of BECMI, so there are changes to the original rules from all those sources, including the changing of both magic item creation and bonus stacking.

As Mike points out, Vol II p 31 of the original rules make it clear that armor and shield bonuses do not stack, a fact which first changed in AD&D, as I recall. The Ring of Protection is described on p 33, and states "A ring which serves as +1 armor would, giving this bonus to defensive capabilities and to saving throws." So, at best, it replaces Plate +1 armor and (again) doesn't stack. There is no +3 ring.

The Protection from Evil spell is described in Vol I p 23 and was quoted by Cameron above. Again, it does not stack.

[Chainsaw]

Sept 18, 2012 18:57:34 GMT -6 @saxonation said:

I think you may be right, I was talking about Classic D&D or Mystara D&D which I commonly see referred to as OD&D. Sorry, I'll assume this is a different kind of game?

Well, life's not over yet, you're surfing!

Welcome aboard.