Two combat systems in Chainmail

[Finarvyn]

Anyone troubled by the dual-combat systems outlined in Chainmail?

1. Each combatant is rated according to Light Foot, Medium Foot, Armored Foot, Light Horse, Medium Horse, or Heavy Horse. Combat is based on the number of units attacking and defending and their type.

2. On a man-to-man scale we are told to abandon method #1 and go to the appendix where we compare weapon type to armor class. But the fantasy monsters are still rated according to method #1.

Method #2 would appear to be the one intended for fantasy battles since it's the closest to the OD&D version given in the Greyhawk supplement. However, since monsters are rated using method #1, that seems to indicate that method #1 is the correct answer.

Am I missing something here?

I'm pondering using Chainmail as a pre-[Men & Magic[/b]-style combat system, but can't entirely decide how to proceed...

[coffee]

There are actually three combat systems.

The mass combat (20:1) rules and the man-to-man rules you've noted. But the Fantasy Combat Table it it's own additional system.

Which one you use depends on who is fighting whom.

If a Balrog is fighting a unit of Pikemen (i.e.; normal men), you use the 20:1 rules in conjunction with the Fantasy Reference Table.

If your Balrog is fighting a Dragon, you use the Fantasy Combat Table.

If you are fighting a small scale skirmish, you use the Man-to-Man tables.


The problems arise when you start actually playing D&D, especially if you add monsters from Greyhawk or other sources: Where do these new monsters fit on the FRT and the FCT?

Well, as the DM, you just have to make that up. Or, more in keeping with the spirit of the times in which these games were created, as the DM you get to make that up.


I hope this has helped, or at least given you more to think about.

[thorswulf]

I think that about sums it up pretty well! You could combine elements of the skirmish rules with D&D, and convert spells over for wizards with a little work.

[busman]

Oh thank the heavens! I've been working on my Theif class pulled back from GH to 3LBB and I've been trying to wrap my brain around the Fighting Capacity column so I could make a reasonable new chart for my new thief. (We played sans Chainmail back when I was a boy, only using the Alternative Combat method).

I was wracking my brain trying to sort CHAINMAIL all out, but wasn't getting how things match up, It's nice to know that things didn't necessarily match up.

Coffee, you seem to have a good handle on this. A couple of quick questions that are throwing me for a loop:
1. Wizard chart goes from Hero + 1 to Wizard (level 9 to level 10). The only mention I've seen is that Wizard is equal to 2 Armored Foot.
a. So, I'm assuming it means I would use Wizard on the Fantasy Table,
b. or 2x Armored Foot if I was using non-Fantasy (what does this mean in one on one combat and what does it mean in 1:20 scale combat).
2. Fighter Chart lists Hero +1 or 5 Men for Swashbuckler.
a. Does this mean Hero with bonus pip on Fantasy Chart if fighting fantasy
b. and 6 Men (Light, Armored or Heavy Men (depending on what criteria? not encumbrance?) or horses (if mounted?)) if fighting non-fantasy creatures?
3. Man +1 means you add a pip to one (or more) attack rolls (with a 6 killing for light foot).
4. If a character hasn't reached Hero level yet, does this mean they can't attack on the Fantasy Chart, and does this mean that those creatures are unattackable (surely this can't be the case)? I'm currently assuming it means -1 to attack roll on Fantasy chart from Hero (or Wizard) for each level short of reaching Hero.

Thanks!

[foster1941]

Apr 10, 2008 18:04:48 GMT -6 busman said:

1. Wizard chart goes from Hero + 1 to Wizard (level 9 to level 10). The only mention I've seen is that Wizard is equal to 2 Armored Foot.
a. So, I'm assuming it means I would use Wizard on the Fantasy Table,

Yes

b. or 2x Armored Foot if I was using non-Fantasy (what does this mean in one on one combat and what does it mean in 1:20 scale combat).

Yes, which means from level 9 to 10 a magic-user actually decreases in non-Fantasy combat capability a bit (going from 4 light foot with +1 on one of the rolls to 2 armored foot). In one on one combat this means that the wizard gets 2 rolls on the man-to-man combat table (p. 41) for the appropriate weapon type (dagger, presumably). In 1:20 scale combat it means you count the wizard as 2 figures of armored foot (i.e. 40 men) for attack and defense. So, if he were attacking a unit of light foot he would get 2 rolls with a result of 4-6 = a kill; against a unit of medium horse he'd get 1 die roll and need a 6 for a kill. Defense-wise, if he was being attacked by a unit of light foot they'd get 1 attack for every 3 men (read: figures) attacking and need a 6 for a kill and need to score at least 2 kills in the same round to take him out; if he was being attacked by a unit of medium horse each figure would get 2 rolls, need a 6 for a kill, and need 2 kills to take him out.

2. Fighter Chart lists Hero +1 or 5 Men for Swashbuckler.
a. Does this mean Hero with bonus pip on Fantasy Chart if fighting fantasy

Yes

b. and 6 Men (Light, Armored or Heavy Men (depending on what criteria? not encumbrance?) or horses (if mounted?)) if fighting non-fantasy creatures?

Yes. Type depends on armor (no armor or leather = light, chain = heavy, plate = armored) or mount-size, as applicable. In man-to-man combat he'd get 5 rolls on the appropriate weapon-type; in 1:20 scale he'd function like the wizard above but count as 5 figures of the appropriate type instead of 2 armored foot (meaning that a swashbuckler on a heavy warhorse could probably take out an entire units of light foot single-handedly -- 20 dice (5x4) with a 5 or 6 for a kill = an average of 6 figures (120 men) killed per round. Defense-wise, opponents would need to score 5 or more simultaneous hits to take him out.

3. Man +1 means you add a pip to one (or more) attack rolls (with a 6 killing for light foot).

Yes. In man-to-man combat you roll your 2d6 and add +1 to try to get the target number by weapon and opponent's armor type. In 1:20 combat you roll the appropriate number of dice by your type and the type you're fighting (so if you're in plate armor (armored foot) and fighting opponents who count as light foot you roll 1 die, add 1 to the result, and try to get 4-6 for a kill). That +1 doesn't mean anything defense-wise.

4. If a character hasn't reached Hero level yet, does this mean they can't attack on the Fantasy Chart, and does this mean that those creatures are unattackable (surely this can't be the case)? I'm currently assuming it means -1 to attack roll on Fantasy chart from Hero (or Wizard) for each level short of reaching Hero.

See this thread.

Thanks!

No problem; hope it helped (and curious to see if anyone else posts different answers!).

[busman]

foster, thanks!
Huge help!
I'm glad to see my assumptions weren't too far off base.

I suspected that the Wizard was losing power in handtohand non-fantasy combat, but that seemed odd and I wasn't sure my assumption was right.

Thanks, again!

[sham]

Has anyone started using Chainmail based rules in OD&D yet?

I'm trying to come up with a working model myself, and I've been perusing all of the threads here.

I'm thinking of tackling this from the perspective that in fact neither any of the characters nor the monsters in a dungeon would equate to 'men', thus boiling melee down primarily to single attack rolls (and not six as suggested for Trolls!). In other words, melee would be conducted using Appendix B: the 'Man-To-Man Melee Table' and the 'Individual Fires With Missiles'.

Has anyone been able to 'mesh' Appendix B with Appendix E? How would experience mesh with Appendix B? Unless I'm reading it wrong, it's strictly weapon vs armor, with no consideration for Hero or Superhero?

One angle I am considering taking is 'converting' Appendix E, and all Monsters for that matter, into a category or AC to fit onto the Man-To-Man table. This is pretty much what was done with the OD&D 'Alternative Combat System'. I'd also have to convert monster attacks into a weapon row somehow.

I would figure out a way to use the Fighting Capability columns for each Class in Vol. I as a guide for bonuses gained from experience. I'm not sure if I'd simply allow plusses to that single roll, or try to come up with a system which allows the attacker to add another d6 to his roll, and take the two highest results as his roll to hit. I like the latter method more, and I am thinking that magic weapons would be more fun this way if they likewise added an extra d6 to the to hit roll, instead of a plus. Magic armor would reduce the attacker's roll by a d6, as well.

My goal would be a very abstract concept of melee, with lots of dice tossing (but all at once, rather than many separate attacks).

In keeping with a truly abstract feel, damage would be increased via experience or HD, rather than number of attacks, and I might introduce a 'carry-over' effect for damage in melee. After slaying a target, excess damage would be applied to an adjacent foe. Something abstract like that.

I'd love to get some input and design a melee table inspired by Chainmail that could work for OD&D, the intent being an abstract but functionally balanced system.

Actually, the intent is a bloody, gory, unforgiving, fast melee model with lots of d6 being tossed about. And critical hit tables.

I'm kicking myself for getting the Chainmail PDF now because it's another distraction from mega dungeon construction!

[thorswulf]

Let me see if I have this right, or I'm totally offf my nut.

Situation: A hero, wizard(Guidon rules, not later edition) and 6 heavy 1st level fighters run into a balrog.

For arguements sake let the hero and friends go first. The wizard throws a lightning bolt, and the hero and fighters rush in to engage in melee.

The balrog needs to roll 6+ on 2d6 to avoid being killed by the lightning bolt.
The hero needs to roll 11+ to kill the balrog in meleeon the fantasy chart- OR needs to roll an 11+ on the man to man chart to kill the balrog.
The fighters have no chance on the fantasy chart, could hit and kill (or do 1d6 damage per hit in OD&D)the balrog on the man to man chart if the balrog is treated as having Plate and Shield.

If the balrog survives he can attack on the fantasy chart, probably killing the hero, and/or roll 10 times on the man to man chart vs the fighters(Using the 2 handed sword line) and the hero and wipe them out maybe.

The wizard should skip town after turning invisible if the balrog survives. Am I getting this right?

[coffee]

I just found a whole other take on using Chainmail for D&D combat.

Here's the link to a thread over at Knights & Kaves Alehouse:

www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1237

which in turn links to an earlier thread over at Dragonsfoot:

www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13181&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

which has some dead links, but eventually (bottom of page 4) gives the following link:

home.comcast.net/~jeffstp/Combat_Table_v2.pdf

What this guy has done is take the mass combat rules, add the fantasy table, and then roll the whole thing together to come up with a single table for OD&D combat. Individual combat.

And then, for a kicker, he revised the entire monster list to show how each one works in his scheme.

And all it uses are d6's.

I haven't tried it yet, but it looks pretty slick.

[busman]

May 15, 2008 14:43:39 GMT -6 coffee said:

I just found a whole other take on using Chainmail for D&D combat.

Here's the link to a thread over at Knights & Kaves Alehouse:

www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1237

which in turn links to an earlier thread over at Dragonsfoot:

www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13181&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

which has some dead links, but eventually (bottom of page 4) gives the following link:

home.comcast.net/~jeffstp/Combat_Table_v2.pdf

What this guy has done is take the mass combat rules, add the fantasy table, and then roll the whole thing together to come up with a single table for OD&D combat. Individual combat.

And then, for a kicker, he revised the entire monster list to show how each one works in his scheme.

And all it uses are d6's.

I haven't tried it yet, but it looks pretty slick.

I think my personal favorite thing about his compilation is that he left it % in Liar.

[coffee]

May 15, 2008 14:46:08 GMT -6 busman said:

I think my personal favorite thing about his compilation is that he left it % in Liar.

Yeah, I was going to mention that! That was too cool.

[dwayanu]

Thorswulf:

I'm not sure it was intended to combine the "man-to-man" and "fantasy" rules. If the hero is worth but 4 men in the former yet can kill the balrog with one roll in the latter, then something odd is going on. (That he's worth 80 men in a big battle is also odd, but maybe not relevant.)

One interpretation is that the hero and balrog can fight each other only on the fantasy table. That normal men can kill fantastic figures in the battle (1:20) game raises the question of how to treat the first-level men in this context -- and I have no ready answer.

One might ditch the fantasy table altogether and use the MTM system in a manner similar to D&D. The hero gets 4 attacks, the balrog 10, each veteran a single attack at +1. It takes 4 cumulative "kills" to kill the hero, 10 to kill the balrog.

I would really like to see Foster's take on this! He's got me dusting off Chainmail (to read, if not to play) for the first time in years.

[foster1941]

Hero, Wizard, and 6 Heavy Foot against a balrog. Men attack first.

Straight Chainmail: (this part I'm sure of)

Hero rolls on Fantasy Combat table (p. 44) and needs 11 on 2d6 to drive back the balrog and 12 to kill it. If the Wizard chooses to attach instead of casting a spell he rolls on Fantasy Combat table and needs 7 to drive back or 8+ to kill. The 6 Heavy Foot cannot harm the balrog.

Assuming it survived the attacks from the Hero and Wizard, the balrog counter-attacks. If he chooses to attack the Hero he rolls on the Fantasy Combat Table and needs a 4 to drive back the Hero or 5+ for a kill. If he chooses to attack the Wizard he rolls on the Fantasy Combat Table for 8 to drive back, 9+ to kill. If he chooses to attack the Heavy Foot he attacks on the Combat Tables (p. 40) as 2 Heavy Horse -- roll 6d6, any roll of 5-6 is a kill (so theoretically he could kill all 6 of them in 1 round).

Chainmail + D&D: (this part I'm guessing at and more-or-less making up as I go along)

Ignore the Combat Tables and Fantasy Combat Table. Wizard casts his lightning bolt. Balrog takes 11d6 damage (save vs. spells for 1/2 damage). The hero attacks 4 times on the Man-to-Man Melee Table (p. 41) comparing his weapon to the balrog's AC (2). Each successful hit inflicts 1d6 hp damage. The heavy foot attack on the same table, one roll apiece by weapon type adding +1 to their total. Successful hits inflict 1d6 hp damage.

Assuming the balrog survives, it counterattacks, with either its sword or its whip. In the former case it makes 10 attacks on the Man-to-Man Melee Table at +1 (for its magic sword), two-handed sword vs. appropriate AC, each hit inflicting 1d6 hp damage. Presumably these attacks can be split among any number of different targets within melee range (i.e. he could attack each of the Heavy Foot once and the Hero 4 times). In the latter case it makes 1 attack (rolled how? I'd say the Monsters Attacking table from the Alternative Combat system) and if successful the target is drawn into the flames for 2d6, 3d6, or 4d6 damage (depending on the balrog's size).

Note that neither of these is how I'd actually handle this situation. In D&D I use the Chainmail rules for movement, order of activities, missile rates of fire, morale, situational adjustments to hit, and so on, but not the actual combat tables (I use either the standard "alternative" tables from vol. I or the 2d6 vs AC formula I've mentioned before). The only exception to this would be a largish-scale combat between mundane forces -- for a hero and 20 men-at-arms fighting against 40 orcs or something similar.

[dwayanu]

Thanks! A couple of errata:

1) I forgot that Balrogs specifically cannot be killed in normal (non-fantastic) combat.*

2) AC 2 in D&D is AC 8 in Chainmail.

*The entries for creatures indicate how they are to be handled in the fantasy and battle games. I would use the number of "kills" given for the latter if I were using the man-to-man tables.

[Deleted]

Apr 10, 2008 18:04:48 GMT -6 busman said:

Oh thank the heavens! I've been working on my Theif class pulled back from GH to 3LBB and I've been trying to wrap my brain around the Fighting Capacity column so I could make a reasonable new chart for my new thief. (We played sans Chainmail back when I was a boy, only using the Alternative Combat method).

Maybe I missed something, but on page 11 of the Greyhawk supplement isn't there a thief chart that gives Fighting Capacity? Sure, it also used d4 HD, but ignore that and use the FC part.

[kesher]

Assuming it survived the attacks from the Hero and Wizard, the balrog counter-attacks. If he chooses to attack the Hero he rolls on the Fantasy Combat Table and needs a 4 to drive back the Hero or 5+ for a kill. If he chooses to attack the Wizard he rolls on the Fantasy Combat Table for 8 to drive back, 9+ to kill. If he chooses to attack the Heavy Foot he attacks on the Combat Tables (p. 40) as 2 Heavy Horse -- roll 6d6, any roll of 5-6 is a kill (so theoretically he could kill all 6 of them in 1 round).

foster, or anyone else, where does the Balrog = 2 Heavy Horse come from?

My copy of Chainmail (3rd ed., 7th printing) doesn't have Balrogs in it; maybe it's an edition thing?

[coffee]

It is an edition thing. Here's the text:

BALROGS: A Balrog is a truly terrible opponent. Balrogs cannot be killed by normal missile fire or in normal combat. It inflicts casualties in combat as if it were two Heavy Horse. In addition, the Balrog can immolate any normal figure it touches during its move or melee. They operate equally well in darkness or in light. They can fly 15" per turn, and remain airborne for three turns.

Morale Rating: 50
Point Value: 75

[kesher]

coffee, you are, as the French say, "zhe maan."

Thanks! I'll paste that into my pdf post-haste.

[coffee]

Actually, Jeff Rients sent me the link from a Dragonsfoot thread that had that. This discussion was here:

odd74.proboards76.com/index.cgi?board=specificmonsters&action=display&thread=738

[kesher]

Okay, now, the really embarassing thing here is that I read AND replied to that thread...

Thanks again!

[coffee]

Jun 6, 2008 15:42:13 GMT -6 kesher said:

Okay, now, the really embarassing thing here is that I read AND replied to that thread...

Thanks again!

I've done the same thing before myself.

Let's face it, there's just a whole lot of good stuff on this forum!

[busman]

Jun 6, 2008 12:22:29 GMT -6 @keltset said:

Apr 10, 2008 18:04:48 GMT -6 busman said:

Oh thank the heavens! I've been working on my Theif class pulled back from GH to 3LBB and I've been trying to wrap my brain around the Fighting Capacity column so I could make a reasonable new chart for my new thief. (We played sans Chainmail back when I was a boy, only using the Alternative Combat method).

Maybe I missed something, but on page 11 of the Greyhawk supplement isn't there a thief chart that gives Fighting Capacity? Sure, it also used d4 HD, but ignore that and use the FC part.

Indeed there is, but I wanted to understand it first so that I could know if I needed to adjust it or not. GH introduces the variable hit dice and variable weapon damage, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't unbalancing the class.

[oldgeezer]

May 15, 2008 17:37:36 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

One interpretation is that the hero and balrog can fight each other only on the fantasy table. That normal men can kill fantastic figures in the battle (1:20) game raises the question of how to treat the first-level men in this context -- and I have no ready answer.

Fantastic creatures/heroes fight each other only on the Fantasy table.

A first-level character is a Hero with an incredible minus.

That's how we actually played it.

[castiglione]

May 15, 2008 14:43:39 GMT -6 coffee said:

I just found a whole other take on using Chainmail for D&D combat.

home.comcast.net/~jeffstp/Combat_Table_v2.pdf

What this guy has done is take the mass combat rules, add the fantasy table, and then roll the whole thing together to come up with a single table for OD&D combat. Individual combat.

And then, for a kicker, he revised the entire monster list to show how each one works in his scheme.

And all it uses are d6's.

I haven't tried it yet, but it looks pretty slick.

How do you read that first table?

What do all those "1/1"'s and 6's mean?

[castiglione]

NM - I found the key to reading the chart at the bottom of the page.

Although that raises another question...round up, round down or round to the nearest?