OD&D Sci-Fi Combat

[Otto Harkaman]

This is my musing on the subject since an OD&D space game interests me as well. I've been reading many of Finarvyn's threads especial the Why does a SciFi RPG "need" skills? one. I also poked through the Terminal Space supplement. In a way I could have posted under Finarvyn's skill thread but I wanted to deal directly with combat. I am not thinking this takes place in the Star Wars universe or Traveller's Third Imperium Spinward Marches either etc.

Just to get this out of the way, I think for it to be OD&D Space you have to have classes and you have to levels. I think skills should become available matched to levels and classes. Some people are naturally going to be better at somethings than others and experienced people are going to be able to put their experience to greater advantage with a skill than people who aren't.. Ok that is out of the way so lets talk about combat.

Lets look at the OD&D combat matrix

The red is my addition. I can't help but think of Dr. Holmes comment on Gary's alignment diagram. This intricate chart could just as easily be:

M-U	Cleric	Fighter	To Hit Modifier
1-5	1-4	1-3
6-10	5-8	4-6	+2
11-15	9-12	7-9	+5
16+	13-16	10-12	+7
	17+	13-15	+9
		16+	+12*

* no "to hit" less than 1

I haven't totally thought this out but I figured these modifiers could be added to the Metamorphosis Alpha combat charts.




So a 5th level fighter using a laser pistol trying to shoot someone armored in thin metal is going to need a 13 to hit. If the same fighter was using a sword to hit the same target he would need a 12. The two matrix don't match exactly but they seem close.

[Otto Harkaman]

I wonder if the Gama World matrix better matches the OD&D one





So again a 5th level fighter with a laser shooting someone in thin metal or platemail (class 13 weapon to hit class 4 armor) would need a 6 and same fighter with sword (class 3 to hit class 4) a 13. Energy weapons seem a lot deadly.

[Otto Harkaman]

I can't help but sit back and think of how arbitrary these combat matrix are if compared to say Avalon Hill's Tobruk or Squad Leader. When you get down to the nitty gritty it is all sorta hokey

Interesting how Gamma World introduces fatigue and Metamorphosis Alpha has special movement rules in combat but I guess for modern combat you need to really regulate actions in a small segment of time. I think Metagaming's Melee/Wizard does this well for sword melee. I've been looking at Metagaming's StarLeader Assault which also introduces Action Points like GDW's Snapshot.
www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/4280/starleader-assault
There is an interesting session report, shows the combat is fairly complex
www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/33677/session-report

[Finarvyn]

Nice post(s), Otto!

As I related on another thread, I ran an "OD&D in Space" influenced by Star Wars back in the 1970's and the class system works just fine. Classes (to me) are just stereotyped skill sets so that you don't need to spend a lot of time customizing.

I like the fact that you're looking at MA and OD&D together (along with GW). I always felt that MA was a great example of "OD&D in Space" even if the actual rules were slightly different.

[Otto Harkaman]

Classes (to me) are just stereotyped skill sets

Oh I would agree. I think levels are also important. Don't you think people like to be rewarded with something other than gold? I mean its somewhat strange but I think that is what is lacking in MA and GW, experience points and levels, that made them less popular than D&D?

I also think to retain the OD&D flavor you have to stick with the original six stats as a core. I think its easy to want to change or swap them out but then you are no longer working on a OD&D variant.

I am thinking though that some sort of action point system might need to be used based on one or several of the core stats. Modern combat is so much different than medieval. A ten second melee turn in modern combat is a long time you realize when you make a slow count to ten. A lot can happen in ten seconds.

[Falconer]

Aug 20, 2012 22:28:37 GMT -6 Otto Harkaman said:

I also think to retain the OD&D flavor you have to stick with the original six stats as a core. I think its easy to want to change or swap them out but then you are no longer working on a OD&D variant.

I just want to say I disagree with this. I think you can rename a stat (Wisdom —> Luck, for example), or add a seventh stat (Tech, for example), and still remain comfortably within the realm of OD&D variants. As long as they are generated by 3d6.

[Otto Harkaman]

I just want to say I disagree with this. I think you can rename a stat. As long as they are generated by 3d6

I didn't mean to sound so draconian about it. I figured people like you might take offensive to changing the basic stats.

Interesting you mentioned wisdom because instead of luck I was thinking of education as in Traveller. Outside the context of D&D it is sort of a strange catch all stat isn't it? The others make more sense.

Off the cuff I would think technical prowess would be more class oriented, an engineer would be better with engine drives than a medico, etc.

[Falconer]

There are a ton of RPGs worth looking at that can be thought of as “OD&D In Space” to a greater or lesser degree. Here are some of the more obvious ones:

Starships & Spacemen
Humanspace Empires
Stars Without Number
Terminal Space
X-plorers

It’s also worthwhile taking a look at:

Space Patrol / Star Patrol
Space Quest
Starsiege
Midnight at the Well of Souls
Encounter Critical

Plus there are a whole bunch of specifically Star Trek based games:

Finarvyn’s OD&D Star Trek
Where No Man Has Gone Before
Adventure Gaming in the Final Frontier / Starfleet Voyages
Enterprise

I bring these up not to quash your creativity, just to let you know they exist, as it might be worthwhile to give them a look so as not to reinvent the wheel. I like them all for various reasons, and, if I had the energy, I would create a mash-up that was perfect for my needs. In a pinch, I would use Starships & Spacemen for a Star Trek style game, and Encounter Critical for a Star Wars style game. One thing I really like, though, is the spell-like system from Space Quest.

[Otto Harkaman]

Funny I was going to post that maybe I am going down a road I don't really want to. You're right I don't want to develop a new game. I thought it might be easy to mash-up MA and OD&D. I think it is in maybe a cinematic role-playing way. At heart I am more of a wargamer than a roleplayer and therein lay the the seeds of my potential downfall in this.

[Alex]

If you are a wargamer at heart, then make a Chainmail in Space. (What would that be called, Reflec, Ablat?)

[Otto Harkaman]

I happened to notice that a "Starship Troopers" OGL rpg published by Mongoose uses the original six stats and incorporates Action points, along with classes and levels. Haven't read too deeply into it.

[owlorbs]

Just to clarify, Starship Troopers doesn't use action points in the "Snapshot" sense for combat resolution, they are more like fate points for rerolls, etc.

[Otto Harkaman]

I suppose you don't even need action points just a referee willing to tell you what you can and can't do in the melee round. Also deciding what combat chart is applicable. Probably a WWII miniature game would be a more nature start than Chainmail. I've never looked at Star grunt or other futurist miniature game rules.

I was having a look at several hex based games that have power armored suits in them. Avalon Hill's Starship Troopers, SPI's Star Soldier and Steve Jackson's Battlesuit. You could make future combat pretty complicated using ideas from these games but its probably not as fun.

[owlorbs]

Some other futuristic boardgames that might be interesting to 'mine' ideas from:

The Forever War
Imperial Infantry Squad

and miniatures games:

Stargrunt II (free pdf)
Dirtside II (free pdf)
Striker (Traveller, of course)
Laserburn (early Bryan Ansell)

[Otto Harkaman]

Aug 27, 2012 9:27:50 GMT -6 Alex said:

If you are a wargamer at heart, then make a Chainmail in Space. (What would that be called, Reflec, Ablat?)

good question, hmmm

Exoplate

exoArmor

[DungeonDevil]

I would sell my newborn offspring for CHAINMAIL...IN...SPAAAACCCCEEEE!!!!

Exoarmour is pretty redundant.

I propose the name Square-Jawed, Two-Fisted Astro-Voyagers in Fishbowl Helmets & Squishy, Green, Bug-Eyed Aliens Who Want Our Women!

SJ2FAViFBH&SGBEAWWOW. Now how's that for an acronym!

[Otto Harkaman]

Sept 12, 2012 2:19:22 GMT -6 DungeonDevil said:

I would sell my newborn offspring for CHAINMAIL...IN...SPAAAACCCCEEEE!!!!

I propose the name Square-Jawed, Two-Fisted Astro-Voyagers in Fishbowl Helmets & Squishy, Green, Bug-Eyed Aliens Who Want Our Women!

SJ2FAViFBH&SGBEAWWOW. Now how's that for an acronym!

SJ2FAViFBH&SGBEAWWOW looks like a well encrypted password ;D

but yeah that sums it up

[Alex]

ottoharkaman said:

SJ2FAViFBH&SGBEAWWOW looks like a well encrypted password ;D

No $#!+ and I considered, for a moment, using it as one since my work has such ridiculous password requirements, but then I realized that by the time I memorized this password it would be time to change it again!!!

[Otto Harkaman]

Wow a year has about gone by. I can now see all my misspellings clearly in earlier posts. Sorry about broken picture links I changed hosting services. I'll try to go edit them out. Well I've been collecting a lot of old Sci-Fi style rpgs in the interim. I think we left off trying to figure out experience and level advancement since most Sci-Fi rpgs don't offer this. I have found that the TSR Buck Rogers XXVc has levels. Reading somewhere it was stated that this game is based on AD&D 2e, when I get some time I'll look more closely.

[thorswulf]

I think that the orginal six stats would work fine. If you went with alternate stats education could replace intelligence, and luck could replace wisdom. I think adding Tech (short for Technical Ability) would be fine too as long as you used a simple bonus/penalty for stat scores. That way things don't get too crazy. Using a base Saving throw for everything and adding stat bonus plus (class) level could make some tasks easier, and others still a challenge. As far as combat goes, you may want armor to reduce damage, and have a to hit number based on the characters dexterity bonus, cover bonus, and level of class. Just some ideas.

[Otto Harkaman]

Yes I would agree there is no reason to change stats. To me intelligence would be intuitiveness and ability to figuring something out, Wisdom would be education and knowledge.

I've been looking over some old rpgs Space Patrol ('77) and Heritage Star Trek ('78) they use six stats. Same designer but stats listed in different order. A lot of these have what you mentioned a stat for Luck. I'm not sold on that stat at the moment. I am not sure about everyone having PSI stat either

Space Patrol
Str
Dex
Luck
Con
Cha
Mentality

Star Trek
Str
Dex
Luck
Mentality
Cha
Con

Interesting
FASA Star Trek 1st ed
Str
Endurance
Int
Dex
Char
Luck
*PSI ability

I've noticed some old sci-fi rpgs replace Wisdom with Will power. I'm forgetting my basics, isn't Wisdom used to modify against Charm spells? So there would be an example of it used as will power.

[Finarvyn]

Jul 5, 2013 5:43:48 GMT -6 Otto Harkaman said:

TSR Buck Rogers XXVc has levels. Reading somewhere it was stated that this game is based on AD&D 2e, when I get some time I'll look more closely.

I have a copy of the rules for XXVc. It is a decent game, and very D&D-like. (I also recall that it was based off of 2E but can't recall the source for this.)

In the same era you might look at 4E Gamma World. It was also based on AD&D or 2E and has similar stats.


The key is to find a few basic resources (maybe even d20 Future) to use for weapon damage, etc, and then "wing it" OD&D style.

[Otto Harkaman]

The key is to find a few basic resources (maybe even d20 Future) to use for weapon damage, etc, and then "wing it" OD&D style.

I couldn't agree more Finarvyn