Dungeon grid layout

[Otto Harkaman]

I am going through the old Holmes rules now and maybe its in his dungeon section but I was wondering where do the rules (Holmes or OD&D) clarify movement and combat on the square grid layout used for most floor plans?

I am realizing now that most of my assumption about the rules are coming from playing the SSI AD&D Gold box games which implements D&D combat on a square grid.

[Deleted]

There wasn't specific square-grid rules for D&D until late 2nd Edition. AD&D 1st had some grids in the DMG, mostly to cover how many people could surround a person, based on either a square grid or a hex grid, and what flanking and behind meant.

[Otto Harkaman]

Thanks exedore!

[owlorbs]

All that info first appeared in Player's Option Combat & Tactics.

I still use the basic framework in my ongoing 2e game. My players there wanted a tactical map. I've always disliked them personally, preferring a more DM controlled, cinematic combat.

That being said there are some interesting points I like in the Combat & Tactics book for my 2e game:

12 second combat round.
Scale of 1" = 5'
Tougher Crossbow
Both Strength and Dexterity can increase base move.
Weapon Mastery
Style Specialization
Surprise penalties for helmets
Composite Armor
Chapter 7: Weapons & Armor (great expansion of the PHB and has converted all missile weapons' ranges to 5' squares).
Carrying Capacity for Beasts (Table)

Using this book you could reverse engineer a tactical system for earlier editions.

[Otto Harkaman]

Thanks for the info owlorbs, I'll check it out.

Interesting the idea of cinematic combat vs a tactical battle layout.

I am interesting in creating tactical battle on a grid using paper minaitures but I can see where in just roleplaying it is easier to perform cinematic combat. I think this is what we mainly did when I was young. I remember using extra 6-sided dice to represent our characters marching order.

Funny now that I have a look again at the DMG with these hex or square diagrams that I had an anathema against using hexes for D&D combat. I thought dungeons had to be on square grids!

[owlorbs]

Or, if you have measuring tape, they don't have to be on grids or hexes at all.

I always thought the old Cardboard Heroes Dungeon tiles were neat since they were both simultaneously hex and square dungeons.

[robertsconley]

While AD&D didn't have grid rules it had miniature rules basically the 1" = 10 feet indoor 1" = 10 yards outdoor convention.

[Otto Harkaman]

Aug 7, 2012 13:29:28 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

While AD&D didn't have grid rules it had miniature rules basically the 1" = 10 feet indoor 1" = 10 yards outdoor convention.

Yes I vaguely remember that now, and I guess somewhere I started to assume one square is equal to 10 feet.

I think I was also assuming from somewhere that one character takes up one square or 10 feet when fighting. Where is that from?

[Deleted]

OD&D states you can have 3 man-sized creatures fighting side-by-side in a ten foot corridor (Volume III: UW&WA p. 12 underlined text at the top of the page).

Your idea may have come from the zone of control idea often used in wargames, including Chainmail (p, 16 "All types of troops are considered to control the space 1 " on either side of themselves to stop infiltration."

[Otto Harkaman]

Aug 7, 2012 14:35:25 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

OD&D states you can have 3 man-sized creatures fighting side-by-side in a ten foot corridor (Volume III: UW&WA p. 12 underlined text at the top of the page).

Your idea may have come from the zone of control idea often used in wargames, including Chainmail (p, 16 "All types of troops are considered to control the space 1 " on either side of themselves to stop infiltration."

Thanks Cameron, much appreciated!

I just had an epiphany, I was getting my assumptions from "Snapshot" GDW's game based on Traveller's combat.

[Deleted]

Happy to help! Have an exalt!

[owlorbs]

Aug 7, 2012 15:17:30 GMT -6 Otto Harkaman said:

Aug 7, 2012 14:35:25 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

OD&D states you can have 3 man-sized creatures fighting side-by-side in a ten foot corridor (Volume III: UW&WA p. 12 underlined text at the top of the page).

Your idea may have come from the zone of control idea often used in wargames, including Chainmail (p, 16 "All types of troops are considered to control the space 1 " on either side of themselves to stop infiltration."

Thanks Cameron, much appreciated!

I just had an epiphany, I was getting my assumptions from "Snapshot" GDW's game based on Traveller's combat.

Ah! Snapshot is awesome.

I seem to recall my house fix that if you allow stacking in that game, the 'close range' section on the combat tables make more sense. My suspicions were later confirmed in Azhanti High Lightning.

[Zenopus]

Holmes has movement rates of 20 ft per combat round (10 sec) for an unarmored man and 10 ft per combat round for a fully armored man. B2 (pg 3) clarifies that it's 5 ft per round for fully armored, fully encumbered, and that a monster's rate is determined by dividing it's movement by 12. These numbers would work well with a grid of 5' or 10' squares. The Holmes sample dungeon has 10' squares, and some gigantic rooms, so there's room for movement.

Holmes also has two or three characters per 10' wide corridor (pg 20). Attacks from behind get first blow, superseding Dex (pg 21). They could also be interpreted as getting the same bonus as for fleeing (+2 to hit, shields don't count).

The early 90's Basic Set and modules (Thunder Rift) came with poster maps of the dungeons with 5' squares for playing on a grid. This was during the era of 2E, so it seems that is the time when the 5' square became standard.

[Deleted]

Aug 7, 2012 14:35:25 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

OD&D states you can have 3 man-sized creatures fighting side-by-side in a ten foot corridor (Volume III: UW&WA p. 12 underlined text at the top of the page).

Your idea may have come from the zone of control idea often used in wargames, including Chainmail (p, 16 "All types of troops are considered to control the space 1 " on either side of themselves to stop infiltration."

Whereas since Chainmail is 1:20, we used the two rules above to assume that three men abreast completely filled a ten foot width. I remember discussing this with Gary and Rob and a couple other folks.

[Deleted]

Aug 7, 2012 21:34:54 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Whereas since Chainmail is 1:20, we used the two rules above to assume that three men abreast completely filled a ten foot width. I remember discussing this with Gary and Rob and a couple other folks.

That makes sense to me, and is another example of Chainmail and OD&D meshing together very nicely. Thanks!

[Otto Harkaman]

I hadn't noticed that there was a change in later versions from 10' to 5' in dungeon scales, thanks for pointing that out.

I had the assumption that you could put everyone on a grid in their separate box but that doesn't really work does it. I guess you have to measure everyone's individual movement separate from the grid once combat starts?

I was thinking that you could divide a 10' square into ninth's.


Making the dungeon square into a mega-square much like Melee uses.


But then I realized that you would start to have all kinds of strange movement problems and that the square almost because a barrier in itself


Now that I think that over even the SSI Gold box games does this, going from a movement grid to a ungrided battlefield when you enter a room for combat.

[Otto Harkaman]

Well it just dawned on me that I was thinking too much on the lines of Melee and should toss the mega-square idea and just go to a smaller grid scale for combat.

[owlorbs]

I've always thought the 5' square worked nicely due to the scale feeling right visually. Most miniature gamers are used to a figure/distance warp anyway, but the 5' scale looks good on a tactical map with 25mm figs.

You can easily convert 10'/square scale maps if needed, and still fit two abreast in a 10' passage for combat (perhaps physically squeezing three if the bases are small enough).

[Otto Harkaman]

I think the 5' would be the best. I can imagine two figures able to fight sword and shield abreast better in a 10' corridor than three. I could see three with pole arms and shields abreast, or perhaps all armed with short sword and shield fighting roman style.



I am tweaking a Melee vassal module into a D&D one, I don't know if you are familiar with vassal but its much easier to control and measure movement on a grid than having to create a virtual measuring stick or ruler.

[owlorbs]

Are you then using the vassal mod for a pbem d&d game?

[Otto Harkaman]

Aug 9, 2012 15:51:57 GMT -6 owlorbs said:

Are you then using the vassal mod for a pbem d&d game?

I'm messing around with such. I've hacked and edited some of Mycenae's modules for GDW's Mayday. He has also made some for metagaming's Melee/Wizards. I was going to tweak this module for OD&D or I am. Nothing official, totally for personal satisfaction.

I was wondering if you might be interesting in a good space pirate boarding "Snapshot" firefight sometime. Mycenae has a module posted on the vassal website, also an Azhanti High Lightning one.

No hurry, if you are interested in such you could help me beta test a Holms/ODD one. I was amazed how easy it was to connect though the vassal server. However you realize how much non verbal facial information goes on that you don't get playing online.

[Otto Harkaman]

Found some fun old Games Workshop dungeon tiles from 1979. These were sheets of dungeon tiles that you cut out to form a miniature playing mat but since I have them digitally I am cutting and pasting the tiles and putting them into a pbem program.

Here a party descends into the tower ruins of Zenopus


here is a full scale picture
www.lexweb.us/dnd/partydescends.jpg

Had some program memory problems but changed to XP compatibility mode and seems to have solved the problem.

Ooops and my stairs are backwards. I am only using a couple of the tiles, there is a lot of them.

[Otto Harkaman]

Caves of Chaos Hall of Skeletons

full size www.lexweb.us/dnd/hallofskeletons1.jpg

[Otto Harkaman]

Temple of Evil Chaos!

Full sizewww.lexweb.us/dnd/evilchaostemple.jpg

I was trying to make a curtain behind the idol but it looks more like streaks of blood perhaps. Floor plan of the temple of Evil Chaos in the Caves of Chaos. I changed the room furnishings since there was this cool demon idol that looks similar to the one on the AD&D players manual. And I thought it much more entertaining to throw victims into a bottomless pit than just sacrificing them. However I didn't want the demon god to feel shorted so there is a altar in the corner.

[Otto Harkaman]

Room B in the ruins of Zenopus' tower

full size www.lexweb.us/dnd/room_b.jpg

Yeah once you expand these rooms to 5' grid they seem a lot bigger.

[owlorbs]

Aug 9, 2012 16:18:35 GMT -6 Otto Harkaman said:

Aug 9, 2012 15:51:57 GMT -6 owlorbs said:

Are you then using the vassal mod for a pbem d&d game?

I'm messing around with such. I've hacked and edited some of Mycenae's modules for GDW's Mayday. He has also made some for metagaming's Melee/Wizards. I was going to tweak this module for OD&D or I am. Nothing official, totally for personal satisfaction.

I was wondering if you might be interesting in a good space pirate boarding "Snapshot" firefight sometime. Mycenae has a module posted on the vassal website, also an Azhanti High Lightning one.

No hurry, if you are interested in such you could help me beta test a Holms/ODD one. I was amazed how easy it was to connect though the vassal server. However you realize how much non verbal facial information goes on that you don't get playing online.

I am a wargamer, although I've not used vassal. I really should learn it sometime for pbem purposes.

[Otto Harkaman]

I am a wargamer, although I've not used vassal. I really should learn it sometime for pbem purposes.

I wish there was a simple vassal module to play chess, that would be a nice way to get introduced to using it. I was attempting to play GDW's Fifth Frontier War with someone off the Citizens of the Imperium board and we realized in the setup that the module wasn't really complete. But I was amazed how easy it was to connect through their server and interact through vassal. I might start a Snapshot thread in the Traveller section. I am a little rusty on the rules myself but I think that would be a good module to use to get introduced to playing online. Or maybe something like Ogre/GEV