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Post by hareton on Jul 30, 2012 6:34:37 GMT -6
Isn't it that some settings are not suitable for original, that is OPEN role playing? D&D is sometimes portrayed as tool to play in a world from your favourite book etc. But D&D supports only dungeons and wilderness, and only particular type of wilderness - one that is dense with monsters and wonders, and civilization exists only as points of light, so no global politics and events or saving the world. It supports to some extent city play, but without some pre planned locations and stuff you can't make players participate in some long intrigues and epic events just on random tables. Speaking of epic heroism, original D&D seems to be oriented on smaller events, and more heroic quests are domain of later era, linear "adventures".
There is also some possibility for politics and war at higher levels when PCs get a castle, but I'm not sure how does it work in points of light mode.
I may be wrong because I'm quite new in this. I value freedom in games, I don't like plot based "RPG" at all, because it's boring when GM is just telling non interactive story instead of playing a game, but at the same time I think it makes RPG suited only for some types of settings and style, while other settings are better for books or video games.
Examples of unsuitable settings are all that have highly developed and civilized world: Warcraft; settings with low magic and few monsters: Conan; or settings oriented on special activities: Thief the Dark Project.
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Post by robertsconley on Jul 30, 2012 10:17:19 GMT -6
OD&D has guidelines for the following
Non Player Characters
Monsters
Dungeons
Wilderness
Baronies and Strongholds
Naval Combat
Aerial Combat
Equipment
Magic Items
The aggregate effect allow OD&D to handle a wide variety of fantasy settings. Granted many of these section have the bare minimum of detail but this also works to OD&D advantage as the referee doesn't have to work to excise unnecessary details as more complex roleplaying games.
Finally, exactly what is a dungeon? The OD&D book example is of a underground catacomb. But the concept isn't limited to that. The keyed location can be used to detail just about any location found in fantasy literature. From the warrens of Lanhkmar to the Land beyon the Wall.
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Post by robertsconley on Jul 30, 2012 10:36:46 GMT -6
I think it makes RPG suited only for some types of settings and style, while other settings are better for books or video games. Examples of unsuitable settings are all that have highly developed and civilized world: Warcraft; settings with low magic and few monsters: Conan; or settings oriented on special activities: Thief the Dark Project. I think a lot of your questions would be answered if you read the Old School Primer. While there are disagreements about particular points it gives excellent advice on how to approach older editions of D&D. www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-finch/quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/ebook/product-3159558.html |
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Post by robertsconley on Jul 30, 2012 10:40:03 GMT -6
Examples of unsuitable settings are all that have highly developed and civilized world: Warcraft; See my Majestic Wilderlands supplement for Swords & Wizardry. www.batintheattic.com |
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Post by hareton on Jul 30, 2012 10:43:41 GMT -6
I did read the Old School Primer and it doesn't treat important issue of linearity vs openness of adventures, and the need of randomness in open play.
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Post by hareton on Jul 30, 2012 10:45:12 GMT -6
Examples of unsuitable settings are all that have highly developed and civilized world: Warcraft; See my Majestic Wilderlands supplement for Swords & Wizardry. www.batintheattic.comInteresting, I will see what these Wilderlands are exactly about. |
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Post by robertsconley on Jul 30, 2012 11:28:15 GMT -6
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Post by Otto Harkaman on Jul 30, 2012 11:55:04 GMT -6
I assume this is just to raise argument.
Does role-playing need any rules? seriously
OD&D has a nice combat system for melee combat and with some house rules it could cover many different genres. It also has a nice rewards system for surviving melee and finding treasure. Too bad Gary didn't make up levels for space rangers & space pirates is all I can see.
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Post by aldarron on Jul 30, 2012 11:59:52 GMT -6
OD&D has guidelines for the following Non Player Characters Monsters Dungeons Wilderness Baronies and Strongholds Naval Combat Aerial Combat Equipment Magic Items The aggregate effect allow OD&D to handle a wide variety of fantasy settings. Granted many of these section have the bare minimum of detail but this also works to OD&D advantage as the referee doesn't have to work to excise unnecessary details as more complex roleplaying games. Finally, exactly what is a dungeon? The OD&D book example is of a underground catacomb. But the concept isn't limited to that. The keyed location can be used to detail just about any location found in fantasy literature. From the warrens of Lanhkmar to the Land beyon the Wall. Yes and just off the top of my head, ideas and material for Playing on Mars Playing in a tundra playing in a desert underwater adventure Taxes inheritance construction of anything from a house to a palace raising armies and mercenaries hiring special craftspersons and experts. Then of course there Empire of the Petal Throne, which takes the D&D rules to a whole other realm. So, no. The rules are quite flexible. |
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bat
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by bat on Jul 30, 2012 12:35:56 GMT -6
I have heard of people playing court intrigue games for years (I believe this was in BRP). I am not sure how one determines what is or isn't suitable. Anything that we agree on at the table is what we run with.
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Post by hareton on Jul 30, 2012 12:41:46 GMT -6
I did read this, how does it relate to my problem? Your setting is designed for open play, but there are fantasy worlds that clearly aren't. I'm not talking about rules or particular system, they are unimportant. I'm talking about possibility of open, non linear play, without the need of pre prepared scripted scenario. It is easy to do such things when playing in a dungeon or wilderness, and not easy in heroic and civilized setting. |
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Post by hareton on Jul 30, 2012 12:44:39 GMT -6
I have heard of people playing court intrigue games for years (I believe this was in BRP). I am not sure how one determines what is or isn't suitable. Anything that we agree on at the table is what we run with. I always laugh when I imagine 4 dirty adventurers doing serious business in aristocratic court. But putting is aside, was it scripted story or randomly and naturally generated? |
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Post by robertsconley on Jul 30, 2012 12:51:29 GMT -6
I did read this, how does it relate to my problem? Your setting is designed for open play, but there are fantasy worlds that clearly aren't. I can't think of any fantasy setting in movie, TV, or literature where the player can't just roleplay doing their own thing with OD&D or any other Fantasy RPG for that matter. Care to give a specific setting. |
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Post by robertsconley on Jul 30, 2012 13:00:51 GMT -6
I always laugh when I imagine 4 dirty adventurers doing serious business in aristocratic court. But putting is aside, was it scripted story or randomly and naturally generated? 1) OD&D doesn't assume that the characters are dirty adventurers. It doesn't assume much of anything about character backgrounds. The four characters could easily be Harry, Thomas, John, and Humphrey, the sons of King Henry IV of England as they could be four peasants from Abberton 2) To set up court intrigue as an adventure it is best to focus the prep on creating a Sandbox of NPCs rather than the traditional locales. Describe each NPCs and their relationships. The Campaign unfolds based on how the PCs interact with the NPCs. And OD&D works fine for this. |
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Post by hareton on Jul 30, 2012 13:14:51 GMT -6
I did read this, how does it relate to my problem? Your setting is designed for open play, but there are fantasy worlds that clearly aren't. I can't think of any fantasy setting in movie, TV, or literature where the player can't just roleplay doing their own thing with OD&D or any other Fantasy RPG for that matter. Care to give a specific setting. Player is not exactly driving the game all by himself, he is interacting with things masterfully laid by DM: NPCs, places and mechanisms like exploration. So to give example setting once again - Conan. Moving around Aquilonia - I can't use wilderness rules, because spaces between cities are not wilderness, there are no bizzare encounters every few miles, only civilized and mundane land. In result there is nothing to do in this aspect, only city, and to some extent dungeon play remains. Another: there is a video game called Thief the Dark Project, that I would like to experience in RPG. But wandering in the City with random tables, having its own merit and value, is not exactly the same as story about stopping pagan god from destroying civilization which happens in the game. |
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Post by hareton on Jul 30, 2012 13:17:45 GMT -6
2) To set up court intrigue as an adventure it is best to focus the prep on creating a Sandbox of NPCs rather than the traditional locales. Describe each NPCs and their relationships. The Campaign unfolds based on how the PCs interact with the NPCs. And OD&D works fine for this. I wondered if this would work, I will have to try. |
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Post by robertsconley on Jul 30, 2012 14:04:16 GMT -6
Player is not exactly driving the game all by himself, he is interacting with things masterfully laid by DM: NPCs, places and mechanisms like exploration. So to give example setting once again - Conan. Moving around Aquilonia - I can't use wilderness rules, because spaces between cities are not wilderness, there are no bizzare encounters every few miles, only civilized and mundane land. First historically and fictionally, lands were not that civilized where Wilderness encounter would not occur. The population density wasn't high enough. Wolves plagued the european landscape well into the 18th century. But let's go with the assumption the land is that civilized, on the order of Northern France or Northern Italy. If you look in Book III there is a City encounter table. You could use a variant for that for what would be called a Rural encounter. Games like Ars Magica, Harn, Chilvalry & Sorcery all have random encounters tables that would work fine with OD&D. The expectation of OD&D was NOT that you limit yourself to what available in the rulebooks. But use the material to IMPLEMENT the setting you have in your mind's eyes. The inclusion of the Desert (Mars) chart was Gygax's way of illustrating this. In result there is nothing to do in this aspect, only city, and to some extent dungeon play remains. Another: there is a video game called Thief the Dark Project, that I would like to experience in RPG. But wandering in the City with random tables, having its own merit and value, is not exactly the same as story about stopping pagan god from destroying civilization which happens in the game. Look at my World in Motion post. What you do is make a timeline of events that would occur as if the player characters did not exists. The endpoint of that timeline would be the destruction of civilization. That timeline is a PLAN, not a script. Like all plan it will change once the campaign starts as the character do or not do various things. The timeline also organizes your prep by focusing your limited time on what needed in terms of NPCS, Locales, and information. One important piece of information is exactly how civilization is going to be destroyed. What are the elements of the deity's plan that need to line up for the climatic event to occur. From all this you can generate what is basically an elaborate rumor table. If the players pick up on the rumor then it will naturally lead them to the rest of the plot. If you want open play using OD&D then you need to let go of the idea there is going to be any predetermined end. The players could spike the deity plan two steps in. So you are not catch with your pants down so to speak, play a game of what if each. Prepare, at least in your mind, what happens if b instead of a occurs. And if c occurs you will still be better prepared because you are already thinking of multiple outcomes. For example say the players destroy the deity in session two of something that was estimated to run 15 sessions. Sound like a lot of work wasted. However that deity didn't exist in a vacuum. He had agents, flunkies and minions working for him. A group that not likely able to be all killed in one fell swoop on session two. So the campaign now becomes about the aftermath. And the plots and plans of all those "little" guys now that their god as been killed. Much like in later seasons of Stargate SG-1 after most of the Gould were killed other faction arose to provide the SG-1 team with adventure. Or maybe it like Babylon 5 where the characters have a major problem in the fact the Earth Alliance is becoming a Totalitarian states but they can't do anything about it until the Shadows are defeated. Again all of this OD&D is perfectly able to handle. |
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Post by stevemitchell on Jul 30, 2012 14:14:43 GMT -6
As far as Conan's world goes--just wander across the border from Aquilonia into Pictland and see how much trouble you run into. Ditto going down to the Black Kingdoms or into the deserts of the east. For that matter, even in the "civilized" Hyborian realms, you can always run into a bandit raid, a civil insurrection, or a ghoul attack (well, at least in Argos).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 14:48:07 GMT -6
6+1 HD, AC 4, rubbery green skin, regenerates.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 30, 2012 14:54:34 GMT -6
OD&D has a nice combat system for melee combat and with some house rules it could cover many different genres. It also has a nice rewards system for surviving melee and finding treasure. Too bad Gary didn't make up levels for space rangers & space pirates is all I can see. I agree with this 100%. OD&D creates a framework for any type of adventure or setting; all you need to do is insert some details. Back in the 1970's, after seeing Star Wars, a friend and I took OD&D and created a space setting. Turns out you can make a short list of weapons, tweak classes a little (cleric becomes Jedi), make up a few creatures, and you're ready to do. Not much problem with that. What about political gaming? Well, OD&D doesn't really have rules for intrigue but neither does most any other RPG out there that I've seen. I'm pretty sure there was an article on intrigue in gaming in an old JUDGES GUILD JOURNAL article from the '70's, but I can't recall many of those types of things out there. Otherwise, intrigue is mostly just setting up complex plots an dcounter plots, which could be done with pretty much any RPG system. Perhaps I don't understand your concern on this. I've never had any real problem using the structure of OD&D for any setting I want. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 14:55:56 GMT -6
[/quote]Another: there is a video game called Thief the Dark Project, that I would like to experience in RPG. But wandering in the City with random tables, having its own merit and value, is not exactly the same as story about stopping pagan god from destroying civilization which happens in the game.[/quote]
Why not? It depends on prepared tables, if DM would roll enc of chaotic god or use some others random tables he could interpret it similar way as Thief storyline. Players could be employed by certain NPC (in this case god, whatever he is called in original language of Thief) and decide that they like his tasks more than rest of options. Surely it is not included in original tables but DM should make random table for themselves as they make world his own.
Also preplanned locations are nothing bad. You have dungeons, and they are quite preplanned. Lets give an example.
DM rolled some dice and after looking in his own random tables decided that employer will be that chaos god from thief. He already had prepared manor which had gems/magic items, so he decided to change it a little bit so that gem was something Trickster wanted. Players went and robbed place and in meanwhile preparations of new places were done. If they wont be used they may be recycled like the very manor.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 15:34:41 GMT -6
6+1 HD, AC 4, rubbery green skin, regenerates. I'm glad I wasn't the only person thinking this! ;D |
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Post by tombowings on Jul 30, 2012 17:05:05 GMT -6
I think all that is needed is to quote the introduction:
In other words, Dungeons and Dragons isn't meant to be a complete game in and of itself; it's the frame work around which one can build his or her own. How you go about doing that is your own deal.
So no, it's isn't specifically geared towards intrigue; I just don't see how that's a problem though when the clay is so easy to work with.
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Post by hareton on Jul 31, 2012 7:27:00 GMT -6
robertsconley and corun - great ideas you gave in your posts, now more things seem possible for me.
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Aplus
Level 6 Magician
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Post by Aplus on Jul 31, 2012 13:23:32 GMT -6
This is the most well-put version of what I want to say that I have yet to see.  |
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Post by kesher on Jul 31, 2012 19:08:08 GMT -6
Is that from one of the Arduin books?
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Post by DungeonDevil on Jul 31, 2012 22:10:17 GMT -6
settings with low magic and few monsters: Conan; Piffle. D&D, whether OD&D or AD&D or even Basic for that matter, are perfect for depicting Hyboria. It all depends on what out of the toolset of D&D is selected and what is left out. |
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Aplus
Level 6 Magician
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Post by Aplus on Jul 31, 2012 23:51:48 GMT -6
Is that from one of the Arduin books? It's from Monsters!Monsters! |
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Post by kesher on Aug 1, 2012 12:20:32 GMT -6
Of course! That makes sense now... Thanks!
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