An Alternate Magic System for S&S Games

[Morandir]

Inspired by Talysman's post in the "Dropping the Magic User" thread, I wrote up this system for learning Sorcery in a game without a separate Magic-User class, with a few tweaks. The dice mechanic is borrowed from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd Ed.

Sorcery

Characters may learn Sorcery by studying spending time and money to master spells found in various grimoires.

The highest level of spell you can master and cast is equal to your Int -10 (so 11 Int for 1st level spells, 12 for second level spells and so on). Thus if you have an Int of 10 or less you cannot learn Sorcery.

You can only attempt to master a spell if your level is twice the level of the spell.

Mastering a spell uses the same rules as Spell Research from M&M. Thus spending one week and 8000gp would grant an 80% chance of mastering a Level 1 spell.

Spells known can be cast at any time, as long as a full night's rest is obtained. All spells have a verbal and somatic component. When casting, roll 2d6 for level 1-2 spells, 3d6 for level 3-4 spells, and 4d6 for level 5-6 spells. If doubles, triples, or quadruples are rolled, the Great Curse* is activated and the Ref will roll to see what happens. For doubles, the curse is minor; for triples, major; and for quadruples, catastrophic. If two sets of doubles are rolled, two minor manifestations of the Great Curse occur. Additionally, your Intelligence score is reduced by 2, 3, or 4 respectively. This may reduce the max spell level you are capable of casting (e.g. if your Int is reduced to 12, you may only attempt level 1 or 2 spells).

If any 1s are rolled, you must save vs. Spells or the spell fails and you permanently lose a number of Wisdom points equal to the number of 1s rolled. This may lead to insanity at the Ref's discretion.**

Intelligence points return at a rate of 1/day. Inhaling incense of the Black Lotus can restore all Int points lost in 8 hours; during this time the character is in a drug-induced stupor and can take no actions.

Scrolls may be scribed as detailed in Holmes. Potions/poisons may be crafted as described in the Ready Ref Sheets.


Example:
Xylarthen, a 13th Level PC (Int 17, Wis 10), attempts to cast Animate Dead. As this is a Level 5 spell, he rolls 4d6, with the result 1, 1, 2, 6. This causes a minor manifestation of the Great Curse (doubles rolled) and reduces his Intelligence to 15. Additionally he must make a saving throw vs. Spells: a 5 is rolled (poor Xylarthen is having a bad day!). The spells fails and his Wisdom is permanently reduced to 8 (two 1s rolled). Xylarthen may attempt further spells, but cannot cast any Level 6 spells he may know until he restores his Intelligence to at least 16.



*For this I would use the "Tzeentch's Curse" tables from the Warhammer Fantasy RPG.
**Again, WFRP has a great list of insanities that I would probably draw from here.

There are lots of ways to tweak this to make magic easier to learn or less risky, if the Ref so desired. As is, magic is tough; but seeing an army of the undead rise from the ground to do your bidding would be worth it!

Thoughts?

[nizrad]

Very cool idea sir! Makes spell casters quite powerful though if the rolls are in their favor but the possible downside of loss of abillity score points in possibly two stats in addition to the Curse(here I imagined something akin to 1st edition's scroll mishaps table)!? I think it's enough to balance it out as it lets the player decide if they want to risk spamming spells at every oppertune moment. Oh and have an Exalt for that!

[Morandir]

Making that choice is the thing I really liked about WFRP 2e's magic system, and it seemed like the perfect thing to combine with Talysman's idea of using the research rules to learn spells. It presents the further choice of learning magic, or going on more adventures - do you want arcane power, or loot? I think the trade-offs balance well.

[premmy]

From a design perspective, "inevitably corruption" systems like the Wisdom loss here have a big problem: they're inevitable. More to the point, if the designer doesn't do the homework and check the math, they might be not only inevitable but also reach the endpoint of the process way too quickly.

Let's look at the numbers in question (using TSR 2002A Dungeons & Dragons for the Saving Throw value):

- We'll take a Magic User between the 1st and 5th level of experience, and we'll generously assume that he's never ever cast a spell before (which is highly unlikely if he's not first level, but let's be generous). His Saving Throw target number vs. spells is 15. Let us also assume he has a Wisdom of 15, which, again, is a pretty generous assumption.

- To keep it simple and even more generous, we'll further assume he only ever casts 1st and 2nd level spells (so only rolls 2d6 per casting).

- Every time he casts a spell and rolls 2d6 for the results, there's an 11 in 36 chance of one or both dice showing a 1 and forcing him to make a save - that's roughly every third casting.

- When he does have to make a save, he has to roll 15 or higher on a d20, that's a 14 in 20 chance of failing the throw and losing Wisdom.

- (11/36)*(14/20)=77/360. He has a roughly 1 in 5 chance of losing one or two points of Wisdom every time he casts a spell.

- Ignoring rounding errors and the fact that some of these Wisdom losses will be on double 1s, our Magic User is statistically likely to drop to 0 Wisdom after 71 spells. And that is with us generously assuming a rather high Wisdom score and no 3rd or higher level spells. (And what happens at 0 Wisdom? Does the character die? Become an insane NPC?)


71 castings. Just how many sessions, how many adventures is that going to be enough for before the player inevitably loses his PC due to performing the single action that gives his class its raison d'etre? Would you want to play a Fighter if the local fumble houserules ensured that he'll decapitate himself after 71 attacks or so?

While the concept of corrupting magic is alluring and appropriate for a sword & sorcery game, the actual mathematical implementation is shoddy and results in a Magic User that's inviable for a player class.


EDIT: Okay, I see it's supposed to be other classes that pick up Sorcery. On the upside, they'd also have other things to do besides casting spell, but on the downside, a low level Fighter's Spell save is 1 point worse, so the loss of Wisdom would come slightly sooner.

[talysman]

Apr 30, 2012 9:56:06 GMT -6 premmy said:

EDIT: Okay, I see it's supposed to be other classes that pick up Sorcery. On the upside, they'd also have other things to do besides casting spell, but on the downside, a low level Fighter's Spell save is 1 point worse, so the loss of Wisdom would come slightly sooner.

Presumably, low level characters wouldn't be risking spell casting in such a system.

That's the thing about inevitable corruption: it's only unfair or poorly thought out if the characters are forced into corrupting situations. If the game design assumes that magic is a rare, risky shortcut, but there are always non-magical solutions to any problem, corrupting magic becomes an add-on rather than a bottleneck or deadly sieve.

Personally, if I decide corrupting magic is necessary for a setting, I go with something less extreme. For example, I've proposed a white/black magician that follows standard M-U experience, hit dice and spell memorization rules, but uses cleric spells instead of M-U spells. Corruption only happens when a white magician casts reversed spells, which triggers a divine reaction roll; failure means loss of piety, and low piety means a high chance that "good" spells will be reversed against the magician's will. Not as extreme as Morandir's proposal, and corruption (loss of piety) isn't an irreversible, game-stopping trap.

[Morandir]

Premmy, that's some fantastic math work! And you're absolutely right; magic is risky, and inevitably leads to corruption. That's on purpose. Granted, I didn't know how long (or short, as the case may be) it would take.

The system is meant to be used in a game with no M-U class, where magic is very rare and known to be corrupting, and only those who are willing to take risks for a quick route to power use it. As Talysman said, it's not meant to be a trap. I would never suggest it for a standard D&D game where MUs are par for the course. I probably should have clarified that in my initial post.

In a game like this, a character may come across a spell like Charm Person in some mouldering tome and decide that it's absolutely worth it to spend one week and 10,000gp learning to cast it. This PC, even with an average Wisdom score, won't need to cast it many times to make some major changes in the game world. Being the power behind the throne is just a few die rolls away!

Of course if he fails, things may get bad...but perhaps it's worth the risk?

[thedegenerateelite]

On the otherhand, with level 1 and two magic-users, 71 spells cast is probably more than 30 separate game sessions. So it is not that unreasonable, and more likely that the character would be dead of some other hazard long before his wisdom tanked.

[llenlleawg]

Additionally, you might allow the caster to hold off the decline for a bit through making on official pact with an unholy/præternatural horror from Hell/the Beyond. That is, if the caster wants to cast more freely, there might be a way to prevent the inevitable decline, but at more terrible costs, perhaps requiring acts of depravity, or making raise dead/resurrection impossible (the soul going straight to Hell/being tormented by insane extra-planar entities, whatever).

Interestingly, in the Masque of the Red Death supplement to the Ravenloft line (I know, I know, that's 2e!), there were likewise penalties for magic use, apart from the ubiquitous Powers Check. At every new level, MUs had a chance to lose points from Strength or Constitution, and the Cleric equivalent (gaining power from spirits and not from the divine) became gradually detached from the world around them, taking initiative penalties (and possibly others I can't recall) as they gained levels.

[Morandir]

Making pacts with otherworldly powers for longevity/staving off negative effects of power is totally in line with this sort of thing, I think, and would make for great game fodder!

It could also be a quicker route to learning; sacrifice a virgin to a demon, get a spell without having to pay the time/gp it usually takes.

[Azafuse]

I really like this spell system, very gritty and perfect for an old good lethal play-style!


As already suggested ritual sacrifices could be a good way to prevent negative drawbacks (maybe granting some kind of bonus for the next failure).


Another way could be considering that sorcery thrives on success, not on failure, as REH wrote in his People of the Black Circle: so as long as you succeed in your ST vs. Spells to prevent Wisdom Loss, your character could get a cumulative +1 bonus to that ST.