Dragons. Anyone use 'em?

[Finarvyn]

This is going to sound really stupid, but in spite of the name of the game being DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS I hardly ever use dragons in my campaigns.

I guess in my mind the Dragon is sort of like the "ultimate" bad guy and you don't face him until you are really kick-butt powerful, but I tend to cap out campaigns somewhere in the 6-8 level range so the characters never seem to face one.

A couple of questions:

1. Do you use dragons often?

2. When you use them, do you spend time chatting with characters (a la Smaug) or are your dragons just fighting machines designed to kill the party?

3. Or, maybe dragons aren't that awesome when compared to balrogs and demons and battling the gods.

How do you use them?

[makofan]

You know what - I haven't used one in either of my OD&D campaigns - there are plenty of them (at least 4 known dragon lairs), it's just the characters are avoiding them

[Sean Michael Kelly]

I can count the number of games I've run with dragons on one hand and most of those encounters were not hostile. Not sure why, but maybe just the ominousness and/or scarcity of the creatures in my mind.

I did recently design a cavern/dungeon for a short campaign with a red dragon awaiting.... but the way the game went, they ended up finishing the scenario without encountering him!

[waysoftheearth]

I had a pair of (the biggest) white dragons in a level 8 adventure semi-recently (maybe 6-9 months ago).

A long while back I can recall running (separate) encounters with green and black dragons... both approximately around 4th or 5th level, from vague memory.

I can't recall dragons ever appearing in my games at 1st to 3rd levels... clearly its time for that to change!

;D

[Azafuse]

1. Do you use dragons often?
Enough in my S&W Games, at least since my first group of adventurers escaped Zanzer Tem's dungeon and gangbanged (with other prisoners) the young white dragon Kamrko. ;D

2. When you use them, do you spend time chatting with characters (a la Smaug) or are your dragons just fighting machines designed to kill the party?
It depends.

I often use depowered dragons (more wyverns than dragons per se in terms of Intelligence), but I also like using them for parleys (mainly as Quest dealers) or as high-level dungeon keepers.

3. Or, maybe dragons aren't that awesome when compared to balrogs and demons and battling the gods.
I think my sweet old Savraan Voor, Master of Flames and Shadows shows you can have the best of both worlds (like the evil female bard known as Hannah Montana ;D).

[talysman]

I don't recall using a dragon, but I think I may have in my earliest games. I probably placed a dragon somewhere, one of the flightless ones from 7th Voyage of Sinbad. I think I used a hydra at one point, at least.

I prefer almost all my dragons to be horrific enchanted beasts rather than superintelligent schemers. Many of them wouldn't be any bigger than an elephant.

Oddly enough, I don't think dragons are absolutely necessary to the game. The *potential* for dragons, yes; but I think of the name "Dungeons & Dragons" not as what *ought* to be in the game, but as a succinct thematic summary.

[geoffrey]

When I referee a game of Gygaxian D&D, I use plenty of dragons. Confronting, fighting, slaying, being slain by, and fleeing from dragons is a lot of fun. Even 1st-level characters can be a credible challenge to, for example, a small young white dragon. Dragons can be semi-common encounters at all levels of a campaign. They can be as common as ogres, trolls, hobgoblins, and all the rest.

I especially like Sham's analysis of OD&D dragons, in which he posulates with good reason that even the largest of OD&D dragons can comfortably crawl around in 10' by 10' by 10' corridors:
shamsgrog.blogspot.com/2008/12/d-cover-to-cover-part-24.html

[paulg]

I've had dragons in a couple of my games. One was a very young dragon. The players interrupted its plans to establish a sizable nest egg/horde. It fought long enough to escape and plot its later revenge. The other dragon was more interested in poetry than combat, and was a non-hostile NPC.

I've always wanted to run a campaign where dragons, with their long lives and high intelligence, manipulate most of the important events in the campaign world. I guess I never did it because such creatures would be almost unbeatable. Maybe that's pre-OSR thinking....

It would be perfectly reasonable to make young dragons---the kind that fit in 10x10' corridors---almost common. I haven't done it. Old+ dragons would still be very rare.

[nizrad]

I enjoy placing dragons in almost any level of my dungeons. Though they mostly tend to be no older than sub-adults. Usually these dragons are extremely dangerouse beasts on the prowl for treasure and food(aka foolhardy adventurers). Adult and older dragons have lairs designed around them and are prone to talk as much as attack the players. Unfortunately it is quite rare for a party to encounter any given dragon due to the vastness of my dungeons, since they never seem to cross paths. Lastly dragons are just as, if not more awesome than Balrogs and demons, because they represent so much more than the destruction and or corruption of men. They are the rivals of kings and and heros, forever taunting them with the notion that they have vastly more wealth and the power to defend it.

[Morandir]

Players have only encountered one dragon (a young-ish White) in my games; one of them got a lucky shot off with a Wand of Paralysis and brought it down. They tried to force it to lead them to its lair, but it escaped soon after.

In my current mega-dungeon there is an Ancient Red Dragon sleeping on level 8. He's been there for a century now (since ravaging and looting the city above), being tended to by a group of Serpent-men. I'm assuming that eventually someone will stumble across his lair, and then things will get fun...

[snorri]

I do. I never did it with OD&D specifically, but during my DM careeer I can remember a lot of battles involving dragons. Generally, they chat before the battle and, a la Marvel, during the battle, teasing PCs with the megalomany. I can also remember a scenario in my Mystara campaign where PCs had to convince white dragons to join their war against Helldanic knights.

[tavis]

We encountered one just last session of the White Sandbox, Brazzimal the ancient red. The characters were rocketing around in the Ghost Tower of Inverness (which I decided is a spaceship's orbital lander) trying to fly it through some subterranean tunnels built by fire giants. I used G3 as a wandering monster table and support for unexpected encounters. Another of the dragons in this campaign also came from the Giants series by way of the 25th anniversary re-working, in which the frost giants are pals with a white dragon. But the very first White Sandbox session also had a dragon go down against a party of like a dozen characters who'd started at third level, and there is a black dragon, Scather, who is a so-far offstage power.

So:

1. yes, somewhat often

2. The dragons always seem to involve an elaborate setup - sometimes talky, sometimes just tactical. The wandering monster stopped to shake down the party for magic items, and even when the giants sent their white dragon against the party in a death from above scenario I gave the players lots of time to think about how to try to protect their wagon train.

3. All high-powered creatures are a little underwhelming in the 3LBB's, I usually reach for greater-than-1d6 damage for them and other non-canonical ways of beefing them up.

[Deleted]

Apr 22, 2012 16:56:59 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

This is going to sound really stupid, but in spite of the name of the game being DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS I hardly ever use dragons in my campaigns.

I guess in my mind the Dragon is sort of like the "ultimate" bad guy and you don't face him until you are really kick-butt powerful, but I tend to cap out campaigns somewhere in the 6-8 level range so the characters never seem to face one.

A couple of questions:

1. Do you use dragons often?

I have used them in every campaign. In my current campaign, one of the players took a dragon as his PC, so I am play testing a writeup for a dragon as a PC as we go. As they are traveling I did have a much older more powerful dragon show up and take tribute from the party for having another dragon in his territory and to warn the PC dragon to stay out of his territory.

Apr 22, 2012 16:56:59 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

2. When you use them, do you spend time chatting with characters (a la Smaug) or are your dragons just fighting machines designed to kill the party?

They spend time talking with the characters and how that conversation goes has a lot to do with the outcome.

Apr 22, 2012 16:56:59 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

3. Or, maybe dragons aren't that awesome when compared to balrogs and demons and battling the gods.

How do you use them?

A truly ancient dragon IMC is a fearsome creature that would not be afraid of a few balrogs.

They can be encountered almost anyplace for almost any purpose.

[warrioroffrobozz]

I don't use normal dragons, for the same reasons you don't, but I sometimes throw in a couple degenerate or zombified ones so they're not as powerful. If I really do need to use some sort of "big bad" I use a homebrew creatures called Star-Beasts, which are more or less as powerful as normal dragons.

[tetramorph]

Apr 22, 2012 16:56:59 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

1. Do you use dragons often?

2. When you use them, do you spend time chatting with characters (a la Smaug) or are your dragons just fighting machines designed to kill the party?

3. Or, maybe dragons aren't that awesome when compared to balrogs and demons and battling the gods.

How do you use them?

RAISE THREAD

1. I love dragons, and I love the original mechanics. They provide a lot of variety within a certain degree of predictability for players. They are deadly, legendary, and fun. And as others have said, they exist within a range that makes them accessible, but frightening opponents at about every level of play.

I ran an outdoor survival board adventure for a couple of years. There are SO MANY random encounters, and so many MOUNTAINS that they ran into A LOT OF DRAGONS! And it was fun. They started knowing what to expect (in some ways) so they actually started developing "dragon strategy" (not the lease of which was "fan out," and "use flattery"!).

2. If they are talking-dragons, I roll a reaction roll to see if they talk first or attack first. Or sometimes I just go straight to talk, especially if I think they are powerful enough over the party to survive a first attack on them and come back with some fury. I play them a la Tolkien and a lot of legend where they are greedy and vain and they can be flattered and persuaded by sufficiently charismatic characters. Believe it or not, it is not so much Smaug from the Hobbit that influences my interpretation of the "personality" of dragon as it is that of Chrysophylax Dives from Farmer Giles of Ham. Best. Dragon. Ever.

3. Dragons are just as awesome as balrogs and demons and gods because they are demons and gods -- incarnate! I give an extra attack per round every 4th HD and an extra dice of damage every 6th HD, so, even when they are not using their breath weapon, they are formidable foes:
S W+: 2 attacks per round
N W / S Bck+: 2 attacks per round; 2d6 damage
L Bck / N Gn / S Bu+: 3 attacks per round; 2d6 damage
L Gd: 4 attacks per round; 3d6 damage
Also, if they talk they can form alliances and bark commands to minions. If they have magic they can "mass charm" (I run dragon and vampire "charm" as an area affect spell that potentially affects all within a certain radius). So a magic using dragon might potentially have a force of charmed low-level NPCs!

I have a dragon in just about every dungeon, including those for low level characters. They are all over the wilderness and they are often flying about.

Dragons!

[Finarvyn]

As an update, I bought a giant black dragon "miniature" for when I was running Hoard of the Dragon Queen at the local game shoppe, and I keep it in the trunk of my car. Since I bought it, there have been several times where an adventure that I or someone else at the store was running that required a dragon. I just scurry out to the car and there it is. I never worry about if it's the "correct" color because I figure it is a darned large and scary thing and no one really cares about dragon color when it's at the table.

[jcstephens]

I've always considered dragons to be part of the background, something everyone knows about but hardly ever sees. I've only used dragons twice in the past ten years. The first was an enormous Red, which scattered a midlevel party, snatched a pack horse and then kept on going. I did this to remind them they weren't at the top of the local food chain yet. The second was a false rumor, to disguise the nature of the real ultimate bad guy.

[Starbeard]

I've gotten a lot mileage out of dragons in the last year during my weekly BX game. The main action takes place in and around mountains, which means dragons every 4th wilderness encounter.

I have one dragon—"The Dragon"—that lives somewhere to the east, and it's seen pretty regularly even in town, say 1-4 times a month. It will even drop down across the town's lake to bathe, but it doesn't bother anyone. We don't go around kicking giant anthills, and dragons don't go around bothering villages unless they have a good reason to.

When the party is out and rolls up a dragon encounter, it's just a harmless sighting about 90% of the time. The players have learnt to hide and wait for it to leave, even if it costs them a day, since ignoring it while out in the open can draw its attention. It almost never attacks to the death, it either swoops in for a quick snack of 1-2 characters, or entertains itself with the little humans, like a cat with a caught mouse. It will chase them a bit, toss a couple around, maybe breathe some fire at the group then fly off when it gets bored.

So far all PCs are levels 1-4, with most being 1-2, so no one's tried suiting up to find its lair yet.

[howandwhy99]

1. Do you use dragons often?
In one OD&D game I played in Rufus of Hommlet fame was actually a dragon in disguise. He and his rider / mate, Burne, defended the town and its secrets. (Or was it Burne who was the dragon?). I've seen dragons very little otherwise. I try and put them in as monster design-appropriate through the world. Which means the most powerful might hold vast territory, though more often through inhabitants than out on the wing every day.

2. When you use them, do you spend time chatting with characters (a la Smaug) or are your dragons just fighting machines designed to kill the party?
I enjoy that dragons can be talked with. I don't put any monsters in the game as "machines designed to kill the party", (but giant insects may technically count). The real scaly flying brute which harries travelers is the wyvern.

I like to think of the consequences and how people would behave given different circumstances. Dragons can be powerful and intelligent. They seek to hoard riches, which actually draws others to them: a kind of trap lair if ever there was one. If a wyvern were move into a settled civilized area to roost and feed off local livestock (and whatever else), there is likely going to be a panic. Calls for defenders to kill the beast, rumors far and wide about the problem, even mass migration (to scale). Wyverns are stupid, but can be confused with dragons. Dragons don't need their problems. They want to live forever, amass great wealth, and manipulate from on high. The young and foolish ones go out amongst 'Man' and are more likely to be killed for it. (But then they don't exactly begin with a hoard either).

3. Or, maybe dragons aren't that awesome when compared to balrogs and demons and battling the gods.
How do you use them?
I'd say a dragon on your side is awesome in its own way. At least equal to squaring off against any balrog or demon lord. I don't go in for "battling the gods" (no Planescape), beyond whatever may count for the cleric's game. (i.e. struggling with the trials of personal alignment).

EDIT: The G Series may be the best source of material for how some dragons are treated in a Gygax module.

[Deleted]

I've not used dragons in game-deciding fashion since perhaps the 1990s. Sometimes, they appear, but as integral parts of the story, not since college.

I HAVE been looking at the "Dragon's Lair" scenario from "Adventures in Fantasy", though. Maybe I'll do something with it. Some day. Not sure how dragons really fit with my Thieves' World campaign, but... Why not?

[strangebrew]

1. In my games I haven't placed dragons beforehand but rather waited until they came up as a random wilderness encounter. Then I'd approximate where their lair was, but never exactly since no one every went looking. Note that this is mostly Basic/Classic D&D.

2. Since dragons were wilderness encounters, they'd usually be out on the hunt and not looking to chat. Like Starbeard said above, the characters would usually spot the dragon first and hide. I'd make a quick d6 roll in their favor to see if the dragon noticed them. The only time one did was when they were on a raft on a river - since they couldn't hide I reversed the odds on the d6 and the (white) dragon spotted them and attacked. It was a pretty fun combat, fighting a flying dragon while rushing down a wild river, and a few characters died before they managed to kill the (small, low-HD roll) dragon. I think the water had frozen around the raft due to the dragon's breath weapon attacks, making it like a little iceberg.

Back in my high school days, when my games were much more high-fantasy, there were good and evil dragons who interacted with the characters both in their dragon and polymorphed forms.

3. I never had a game that got high level enough to battle demons and gods, which is something I'm okay with personally. Maybe some day. So dragons are still dangerous, and possibly common in the wilderness depending on encounter rolls.

I'm kind of torn between making dragons a regular part of the game from low levels (with low HD dragons of course), since their name is right in the title of the game, or keeping them awesome/awful and a kind of ultimate danger. Since I can't decide I just keep it random and let the dice guide it.

[countingwizard]

Nov 26, 2017 13:28:59 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Apr 22, 2012 16:56:59 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

1. Do you use dragons often?

2. When you use them, do you spend time chatting with characters (a la Smaug) or are your dragons just fighting machines designed to kill the party?

3. Or, maybe dragons aren't that awesome when compared to balrogs and demons and battling the gods.

How do you use them?

RAISE THREAD

1. I love dragons, and I love the original mechanics. They provide a lot of variety within a certain degree of predictability for players. They are deadly, legendary, and fun. And as others have said, they exist within a range that makes them accessible, but frightening opponents at about every level of play.

I ran an outdoor survival board adventure for a couple of years. There are SO MANY random encounters, and so many MOUNTAINS that they ran into A LOT OF DRAGONS! And it was fun. They started knowing what to expect (in some ways) so they actually started developing "dragon strategy" (not the lease of which was "fan out," and "use flattery"!).

2. If they are talking-dragons, I roll a reaction roll to see if they talk first or attack first. Or sometimes I just go straight to talk, especially if I think they are powerful enough over the party to survive a first attack on them and come back with some fury. I play them a la Tolkien and a lot of legend where they are greedy and vain and they can be flattered and persuaded by sufficiently charismatic characters. Believe it or not, it is not so much Smaug from the Hobbit that influences my interpretation of the "personality" of dragon as it is that of Chrysophylax Dives from Farmer Giles of Ham. Best. Dragon. Ever.

3. Dragons are just as awesome as balrogs and demons and gods because they are demons and gods -- incarnate! I give an extra attack per round every 4th HD and an extra dice of damage every 6th HD, so, even when they are not using their breath weapon, they are formidable foes:
S W+: 2 attacks per round
N W / S Bck+: 2 attacks per round; 2d6 damage
L Bck / N Gn / S Bu+: 3 attacks per round; 2d6 damage
L Gd: 4 attacks per round; 3d6 damage
Also, if they talk they can form alliances and bark commands to minions. If they have magic they can "mass charm" (I run dragon and vampire "charm" as an area affect spell that potentially affects all within a certain radius). So a magic using dragon might potentially have a force of charmed low-level NPCs!

I have a dragon in just about every dungeon, including those for low level characters. They are all over the wilderness and they are often flying about.

Dragons!

Dragons in your game are practically blasé because of how few hitpoints they have. I think doubling or even tripling their hitpoints while keeping breath weapon damage the same would go a long way to making them scary to us. Also feel free to increase melee damage or spread it out among several targets; I would feel that adding a melee damage dice column next to size on the description table would help adjudicate it. That and flying dragon encounters shouldn't result in combat unless players somehow engage it, or the players are carrying something that is obviously enticing to the dragon such as wagons of treasure.

[tetramorph]

Dec 19, 2017 15:21:54 GMT -6 countingwizard said:

Dragons in your game are practically blasé because of how few hitpoints they have. I think doubling or even tripling their hitpoints while keeping breath weapon damage the same would go a long way to making them scary to us. Also feel free to increase melee damage or spread it out among several targets; I would feel that adding a melee damage dice column next to size on the description table would help adjudicate it. That and flying dragon encounters shouldn't result in combat unless players somehow engage it, or the players are carrying something that is obviously enticing to the dragon such as wagons of treasure.

All good advice, countingwizard. I will think about the HP idea. I do already give extra attacks and damage dice (every 4HD an extra attack, every 6HD an extra damage die).

I'm sorry you've experience dragons as blasé in my campaign. I'll make sure to remedy that for you next time. You're welcome.

[countingwizard]

Dec 19, 2017 17:30:50 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Dec 19, 2017 15:21:54 GMT -6 countingwizard said:

Dragons in your game are practically blasé because of how few hitpoints they have. I think doubling or even tripling their hitpoints while keeping breath weapon damage the same would go a long way to making them scary to us. Also feel free to increase melee damage or spread it out among several targets; I would feel that adding a melee damage dice column next to size on the description table would help adjudicate it. That and flying dragon encounters shouldn't result in combat unless players somehow engage it, or the players are carrying something that is obviously enticing to the dragon such as wagons of treasure.

All good advice, countingwizard. I will think about the HP idea. I do already give extra attacks and damage dice (every 4HD an extra attack, every 6HD an extra damage die).

I'm sorry you've experience dragons as blasé in my campaign. I'll make sure to remedy that for you next time. You're welcome.

Oh just great, now you're going to throw a spite Dragon at us lol. Chromatic astral Dragon whose breath literally shucks our souls from our meatsuits.

[tetramorph]

Dec 19, 2017 18:52:50 GMT -6 countingwizard said:

Oh just great, now you're going to throw a spite Dragon at us lol. Chromatic astral Dragon whose breath literally shucks our souls from our meatsuits.

Spite Dragons: chromatic astral; breath weapon: save vs. soul chucking.

I like it.

Please, keep the good ideas flowing.

A good referee always gets his best ideas from his own players!

[sepulchre]

There is always a dragon in the campaign. It is deadly given our style of play is non-heroic (1st-3rd lvl) and to be avoided. They dwell deep within the wilderness which makes their lair perilous to reach.

Dragons are elemental, they are a manifestation of something inimical to men and a parley is rather absurd.

They are daimonic, again elemental. As Tetramorph observes, despite their corporeality, they are within the ranks of demons and gods.

Any mention of them lay within the myriad of rumors heard on the road or by the hearth. Often they are the antagonist who has settled in flame upon a distant outpost of which the party is meant to relieve or rescue.

[graelth]

Yep, I definitely subscribe to the "dungeons AND dragons" idea. Dragons are common enemies (and are wandering monsters!) at all levels of play at my table since they are the ONLY monster in D&D that scales to every level (thanks to the age categories). I do a few things, though:

1) I am not sure if this is the official rule or not, but I have always interpreted % chance for spells as being per age category. That is, if the red dragon has a 15% chance of magic, then an adult (4 hit points per die) would have a 60% chance of magic. It made no sense to me that the magic chances would go from low numbers (5-15%) for most dragons and suddenly jump to an automatic 100% with gold dragons. This way the range goes from 5% to 90%. I also divide up the spell levels across the age categories (so age 1-2 red dragons would only get level 1 spells, while age 5-6 would get all 3 spell levels, for instance).

2) I use them in packs whenever appropriate. Dragons are often stereotyped as the archetypal solitary monster, but it is much more fun and challenging to fight a bunch of young dragons than a single ancient one.

3) Most of my dragons are not intelligent, at least no more so than a wolf that might be able to speak (so, basically as smart a warg, I guess?). I like to keep dragons mostly in the flora and fauna section of my campaign world notes, rather than as NPCs. That said, there are certainly intelligent dragons to be found (although they are rare things).

[tetramorph]

graelth , thanks for your post. I like your approach.

I love your % chance for spells as being by hp per die. Giving a 5-90% range makes a lot of sense.

I don't, however, much like your approach to speech and intelligence. It doesn't make much sense to me for dragons to have such an increasing chance for magic but less of a chance to speak, especially as magic and intelligence / speech go hand in hand for me and seem to be implied as such in the rules, insofar as dragons only have a chance of magic if they already have speech.

The ability to speak especially makes sense to me as I tend to see dragons as incarnate demons (of avarice and sometimes pride).

Also, what do you mean by packs? Is that your interpretation of the rule that already exists that has dragons likely to come in groups of up to four? Or do you have your own, different house ruling?

Fight on!

[graelth]

Jan 5, 2018 11:37:45 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

graelth , thanks for your post. I like your approach.

I love your % chance for spells as being by hp per die. Giving a 5-90% range makes a lot of sense.

I don't, however, much like your approach to speech and intelligence. It doesn't make much sense to me for dragons to have such an increasing chance for magic but less of a chance to speak, especially as magic and intelligence / speech go hand in hand for me and seem to be implied as such in the rules, insofar as dragons only have a chance of magic if they already have speech.

The ability to speak especially makes sense to me as I tend to see dragons as incarnate demons (of avarice and sometimes pride).

Also, what do you mean by packs? Is that your interpretation of the rule that already exists that has dragons likely to come in groups of up to four? Or do you have your own, different house ruling?

Fight on!

By packs, I mean both number and behaviour... dragons tend to act like wolves (as soon as one or two are down, they tend to split, coming back to attack later on if they feel the party becomes an easier target). And they are usually dealt with by local populations as one deals with wolves (including gathering a brave band of men and tracking them down in their lair). One to four appearing is indeed what I use for adults, but younger types will be around 4-7 or more (maybe 5-12 for a brood of very young dragons). As dragons get older, their inherently chaotic nature does eventually cause them to split up and live solitary lives, but young dragons (like any other weak, chaotic creatures, such as goblins) tend to seek safety in numbers.

As for intelligence, though, I may have inadvertantly caused a misunderstanding... I meant dragons are not especially more intelligent than men. They fall in roughly the same range as men in my world, with some exceptional cases being brilliant, but most being very average and young ones being naturally more brash and prone to give in to their animal nature (although they get more cunning and crafty with age). Only those that can talk, however, can cast spells, as it states in Monsters & Treasure. Thus, the % chance of speaking is always higher than the chance to cast spells, since one requires the other. But as far as spellcasting is a sign of intelligence, it is worth noting that you don't need a very high intelligence to be a magic-user...

I would say that most dragons (with the obvious exception of golden dragons) are approximately as intelligent as Tolkien's wargs... that is, they can speak roughly and even have modest magical ability, but they certainly don't wear pants or build cities. They have an inherent animal instinct that even the most brilliant dragons must suppress. If I had a red dragon player-character in my campaign, I would say he couldn't progress beyond a 6th level magic-user.

I will say that these concepts are indeed based on my own private interpretation of the rules. After all, how smart can dragons really be if a significant percentage of them cannot even speak? They don't appear to use any magic items or weapons either, which suggests a bestial nature (I mean, how many truly intelligent species bite you as one of their main attacks?). Moreover, golden dragons are described as "far" more intelligent than the other colours, which suggests to me that most dragons are not that intelligent at all. The distribution of spell levels per age is based on the gold dragon, which explicitly gets higher spells as he gets older (thus I took it as implied that the other dragons did as well, and spaced their spell levels out accordingly). I took 1-4 as the number for adults, since that is the average type encountered, but it seemed reasonable to me to assume the brood spawn would have been more numerous when they were younger and more thinned out when they were older, simply due to attrition.

[dragondaddy]

Yes, dragons are extremely common in my games, and they are featured extensively in almost every homebrew campaign setting. Many can speak and cast spells, some are telepathic They are saurian, related to the dinosaurs, however have evolved, becoming smarter, faster, and warm blooded, although my Dragons still lay eggs.