[S&W WB] Newb DM Questions

[Deleted]

Greetings!

I am completely new to S&W or anything remotely close to the original game. I was introduced to D&D (and RPG's in general) with 4e at the late age of 34. That's right, I had never played a table top game like this before then. My thoughts on 4e, having never played anything else, were that there seemed to be a lot of rules... too many... and combat took forever and it didn't really feel like "role-playing", at all.

So I set out on a quest to find the origins of the game and that led me to S&W WB. So far, I am very excited about what I have seen... I can play this with my wife and kids because it is so simple (they keep begging me to play again), and I can fudge the rules a bit if I don't quite know what to do.

All that being said, I have (and probably will continue to have) some questions or need of advice:

1. Is there a set rule on what a player can do in a combat round (move and attack, double move, or one or the other?)

2. Should I let the players rest after every encounter to regain hit points or prepare spells? I ask this because it would seem to be a lot less challenging if I do... whats to keep the MU from wanting to rest after every fight to reload that powerful sleep spell?

3. If I do let them rest, is there a penalty? Real-world time or other?

4. Monster tactics, how do I decide who the monsters attack? I'm scared to beat up on the MU too much, but I want it to be dangerous and fair.

5. I'm having a hard time deciding how many monsters to put in a dungeon level. I have been using the encounter generator in the core rules to help, but I'm not sure if the product from that is "per dungeon level" or "per encounter".

Sorry to dump all of this at once, but I am having a hard time figuring some of this out on my own with such limited experience.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Romm

[Sean Michael Kelly]

Welcome to the hobby! (And our forum!) I'll answer more later!

[keith418]

Welcome! As I have said, I share your delight with S&W:WB. What you call "fudging" we call GMing! The fact that the family is begging to play reveals the strength of the games we play. I have seen players begging to play as well. It means you are doing a good job as a GM!

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

1. Is there a set rule on what a player can do in a combat round (move and attack, double move, or one or the other?)

2. Should I let the players rest after every encounter to regain hit points or prepare spells? I ask this because it would seem to be a lot less challenging if I do... whats to keep the MU from wanting to rest after every fight to reload that powerful sleep spell?

3. If I do let them rest, is there a penalty? Real-world time or other?

4. Monster tactics, how do I decide who the monsters attack? I'm scared to beat up on the MU too much, but I want it to be dangerous and fair.

5. I'm having a hard time deciding how many monsters to put in a dungeon level. I have been using the encounter generator in the core rules to help,

1. I think it helps to think about what actions could happen in that period of time and allow for it.

2. This question comes back to an absolutely essential issue in "old school gaming." The 1st level MU has - let's say - 4 HP. In a fight, he or she takes 2 points of damage and uses up their spell. Does the whole party stop the adventure and wait for him or her to recover? Or do they press on farther knowing the danger that now is present? There is no one way to answer this, but in my experience, a big part of the fun of old school gaming is that moment in which the players decide - "Okay, let's keep going."

3. Can they find a place to rest? Can they pack all their treasure out and keep an eye on it? If they try to rest, will a wandering monster come along and disturb them? Resting in the wilderness is tricky. There is a lot of dangerous stuff out there.

4. Let the other players learn to guard the MU - just as football players learn to guard the QB.

5. You have 2 options - throw a large number of creatures at them - will they learn to run away? Old school gaming often involves characters who learn to run away - "and live to fight another day." Do the superior number of monsters capture them? Can they then try to escape? You can also feel free to throw only appropriate numbers of creatures at them. But the fun is often in how they decide to respond to overwhelming threats.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the kind words and welcome!

I am thinking over your response and am going to glance over the rules on resting again... this seems to be one that I haven't quite wrapped my head around yet, but I think I am close with your help.

I'll reply when I have a chance to organize my thoughts and questions.

Thanks again!

[Deleted]

1. Is there a set rule on what a player can do in a combat round (move and attack, double move, or one or the other?)

There are a couple of pretty detailed answers to this. I allow one melee attack (with up to a half-move), two missile attacks with no movement, find a potion in a backpack and drink it; as a guideline. A rule of thumb I like for quickie rulings is "anything that could happen in a single comic book frame."

2. Should I let the players rest after every encounter to regain hit points or prepare spells? I ask this because it would seem to be a lot less challenging if I do... whats to keep the MU from wanting to rest after every fight to reload that powerful sleep spell?

3. If I do let them rest, is there a penalty? Real-world time or other?

I will answer these two together. With children and complete new boots to RPGs I would say yes, but you should explain to them this is a temporary ruling to get them "up to speed". With adults already familiar with RPG type systems I would say hew a bit closer to the rules.

The problem with making it too easy for players is that it tends to produce players with poor problem solving skills.

4. Monster tactics, how do I decide who the monsters attack? I'm scared to beat up on the MU too much, but I want it to be dangerous and fair.

From dumb to smart: attack the nearest target, attack the target that is hurting them, attack the front line, attack the front line with a special detail to hit "anyone who talks during combat" (spell-casters). If you're completely stuck? Assign each PC in range a number (or range of numbers) and roll the dice.

5. I'm having a hard time deciding how many monsters to put in a dungeon level. I have been using the encounter generator in the core rules to help, but I'm not sure if the product from that is "per dungeon level" or "per encounter".

This best comes with experience and isn't easy to answer. Use a HD to Level correlation and adjust as this gives you a feel for encounter size versus party strength. Emphasize to players that running away is a time-honored tactic. If it is getting bad, use a morale check to see if the monsters break and run.

[Deleted]

Thanks for your response DuBeers!

I think most of this is cleared up with just plain ol' common sense on my part. That is what appeals to me about the "old-school" games.

The one that still has me hung up is the subject of resting to regain HP. The only thing I saw (I could have missed something) in the rules on regaining hit points was this:

"In addition to the various magical means of restoring
hit points, a character will recover 1 hit point per day
of uninterrupted rest. Four weeks of rest will return
a character to full hit points regardless of how many
hit points the character lost."

I will give an example and ask for a suggestion on how you guys might handle it (this may be a basic misunderstanding on my part).

====Example====
A party of three (level 1 fighter, cleric, MU) enters a dungeon based on some crazy NPC telling them of rumors of treasure being hidden there.

They explore, see some scary stuff (skeletons, bones, spider webs... the kids love this stuff).

About three rooms in, they encounter a group of kobolds surrounding an alter who are upset about the intrusion. The MU (my wife the cheater) casts her sleep spell, puts said kobolds to sleep, takes the treasure and then immediately says "Lets get out of here, its dangerous, and we got our treasure". They only got about 60 gp split three ways. And took no damage (thanks to the sleep spell).

I roll for wandering monsters, and come up with blanks.

My palms start to sweat and I realize that I'm not sure what to do...

If I let them exit to an Inn and rest after every fight, the MU (my wife the buzz kill) gets all hit points back and a recharge on her sleep spell and is somewhat OP. Then they just come back to the dungeon and pick up where they left off... seems a bit unfair to the little goblins and kobolds.

If I let them stay and rest, do I roll a d6 for every three rounds to check for wandering monsters for a full day (roughly 48d6) to see if they can rest?
=====Example=====

I think part of this is due to a poorly designed adventure on my part, the other part is that I am not quite sure how resting "works" or what the rules are in this regard. It seems to me that there should be some type of penalty (in game or in "real-life time" for leaving an adventure prematurely to rest... I'm just not sure what that might be or if its even the thing to do.

Thanks in advance for any further advice!

PS - If my wife ever happens to find this post, I was speaking from strictly a GM perspective, you are awesome in every other way

[Mushgnome]

If the MU wants to rest after every fight, and this is fun for everyone, then I see no problem with this. It is good strategy on the part of the MU's player (your wife). Another question you have to ask yourself is "will the game be fun for the kids if Mommy dies?" and if the answer is "no" then it is OK to give the MU a chance to rest and recharge.

If on the other hand this is not fun for you as a DM (maybe you feel the adventure needs more suspense/pressure) then there are so many ways to "kick it up a notch:"

1. The party is running out of food/water, they'll starve if they stop to rest
2. The party is broke and needs more treasure ASAP to cover expenses/lodging/food/hirelings/better equipment
3. The nearest inn is a day's journey away through bandit-infested woods
4. The party has competition, other NPCs or monsters are trying to find the same treasure
5. If the party does not recover the amulet by the night of the full moon then the town is doomed

And so forth. Think about your favorite books/movies and how the author raises the intensity/suspense of the story. For example in LotR the party stops at Bree, "great, we'll finally get a good night's sleep in this nice safe Inn..."

Regarding wandering monster rolls, they are meant to be a tool when the DM is not sure what happens. If it is obvious what happens, then you do not need to roll. Example: They players say "we don't need to go back to town to rest, let's just lay down here in the goblin dungeon and take a nap right here." You don't need to roll for that; there is a 100% chance they will be ambushed in their sleep.

[Deleted]

Feb 15, 2012 12:37:58 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

If the MU wants to rest after every fight, and this is fun for everyone, then I see no problem with this. It is good strategy on the part of the MU's player (your wife). Another question you have to ask yourself is "will the game be fun for the kids if Mommy dies?" and if the answer is "no" then it is OK to give the MU a chance to rest and recharge.

Actually, I made a big point to tell them that it was "OK" to die in this game... I wanted to prepare them for that. I kind of wanted the opportunity to kill a PC so that they could see that it wasn't a big deal to re-roll and of course I would let the new PC pick up where the other left off.

Feb 15, 2012 12:37:58 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

If on the other hand this is not fun for you as a DM (maybe you feel the adventure needs more suspense/pressure) then there are so many ways to "kick it up a notch:"

This is probably what is bothering me if I am to be honest with myself... It isn't as fun letting them exit early, as it is to see them push ahead, and that is selfish of me. I will keep that in mind going forward.

Feb 15, 2012 12:37:58 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

1. The party is running out of food/water, they'll starve if they stop to rest
2. The party is broke and needs more treasure ASAP to cover expenses/lodging/food/hirelings/better equipment

This is an excellent idea! I hadn't thought of charging for lodging.. they need to work to pay the bills. Good lesson all around, in real life as well a world full of dwarfs and halflings.

Feb 15, 2012 12:37:58 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

4. The party has competition, other NPCs or monsters are trying to find the same treasure
5. If the party does not recover the amulet by the night of the full moon then the town is doomed

Great idea! I think this points out my earlier statement that I designed a pretty poor adventure... they had no real reason to go into the dungeon other than getting some treasure. If I gave them a reason to go, like a quest for a specific item with a timeline as you suggest, then I think that solves some of this problem.

Thanks for the advice, i'm gonna start cooking up another crawl for them right away!

[Sean Michael Kelly]

Sounds to me that you're well under way. In my delay, you have been instructed by some good input. I can simply stand on the shoulders of giants, and say, "see, I told you WE'D help you." :-)

[Deleted]

Feb 15, 2012 12:29:24 GMT -6 @romm said:

If I let them exit to an Inn and rest after every fight, the MU (my wife the buzz kill) gets all hit points back and a recharge on her sleep spell and is somewhat OP. Then they just come back to the dungeon and pick up where they left off... seems a bit unfair to the little goblins and kobolds.

If I let them stay and rest, do I roll a d6 for every three rounds to check for wandering monsters for a full day (roughly 48d6) to see if they can rest?

If they leave, the kobolds will not be idle in the absence of the PCs. They will lay traps, bring out whatever meager magic items in their tribal treasure, they may even hire other monsters for protection. Imagine the adventurer's surprise when their bodyguard troll jumps out at them!

If the party doesn't learn for this, the kobolds may begin ambushing the trail to and from whatever safe place the players are doing their R&R.

Kobolds may not be tactical geniuses, but they are smart enough to know their best bet is to take on the players guerrilla style.

As for the wandering monsters rolls? Yes, roll as often the rules say. Most referees run their game so that there is no safe place to rest underground (though this rule is sometimes bent in the case of multi-levelled mega-dungeons).

Hope this helps.

[Finarvyn]

Glad you found my game and my forum. I'll weigh in, even though some other awesome posters have beaten me to the punch.

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

1. Is there a set rule on what a player can do in a combat round (move and attack, double move, or one or the other?)

My general rule is that players can move once and attack once per turn. If they choose to run away, I give them a double-move. I don't allow a double-attack.

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

2. Should I let the players rest after every encounter to regain hit points or prepare spells? I ask this because it would seem to be a lot less challenging if I do... whats to keep the MU from wanting to rest after every fight to reload that powerful sleep spell?

It all comes down to game balance. If you are running 2nd level characters in a module set up for 10th level characters let them rest and regroup all they want, but otherwise make them camp each "game day" to rest. I would assume that they would have to go through several encounters before I would even entertain the rest option, however, so they have to conserve their resources.

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

3. If I do let them rest, is there a penalty? Real-world time or other?

If you let them rest, allow them to regain full spells and heal a little. Again, if they are overmatched you can give them full hit points if you like. I try not to pin myself down too much on this stuff.

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

4. Monster tactics, how do I decide who the monsters attack? I'm scared to beat up on the MU too much, but I want it to be dangerous and fair.

A random roll works well, but usually I allow player tactics to influence things. I have monsters be pretty mindless in most of my games and they just attack whoever is in the front ranks. This allows for missle-shooting characters and wizards to hide in the back. Sometimes I throw intelligent monsters at them, which really messes up their plans.

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

5. I'm having a hard time deciding how many monsters to put in a dungeon level. I have been using the encounter generator in the core rules to help, but I'm not sure if the product from that is "per dungeon level" or "per encounter".

I make notes on which type of monsters are in each room, but adjust quantity "on the fly" based on how strong the party is at the moment. I don't want to wipe them out, but I don't want them to cruise through my dungeon either.

[waysoftheearth]

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

Greetings!

Greetings Romm, and welcome to these boards


I see you already have lots of good advice, but I'll add my 2cp's worth to the pile...

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

1. Is there a set rule on what a player can do in a combat round (move and attack, double move, or one or the other?)

There's not a hard and fast rule written down. It's whatever the ref rules is allowable. This "looseness" should enable the players to "try stuff" and see what happens.

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

2. Should I let the players rest after every encounter to regain hit points or prepare spells? I ask this because it would seem to be a lot less challenging if I do... whats to keep the MU from wanting to rest after every fight to reload that powerful sleep spell?

You should allow the players to try whatever they choose. I believe a one "turn" rest is expected/assumed after every fight. That is a ten minute "exploration turn". That amount of rest does not "officially" regain any hit points, but it is a common house rule to say this post-combat recuperation will regain players 1d6 hit points.

Most refs wouldn't allow a magic-user to prepare a spell in anything less than an hour, nor in any kind of "risky" environment. Usually they would have to be in a safe place such as a study, temple or library.

The sleep spell can be powerful when used right -- but take care to read the spell description carefully. (I don't have M&M with me right now, but...) I believe the description of sleep says something to the effect that it always affects the number of creatures determined by the dice. In other words, if there are too few monsters, the players are put to sleep next!

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

3. If I do let them rest, is there a penalty? Real-world time or other?

I don't know if there is a penalty, as such, but there is a cost and a risk.

The cost is in supplies. Torches only will only last two hours (from memory), which is 12 turns (exploration turns). Dungeoneering get a whole lot more dangerous when the light runs out! And there is also food and water which the players must have regularly. If they want to rest for hours between fights, they had better have a lot of supplies.

The risk is in wandering monsters. The referee is entitled to roll a wandering monster check once per hour while underground (once every six exploration turns). So the longer the players spend underground, the more likely they are to encounter wandering monsters.

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

4. Monster tactics, how do I decide who the monsters attack? I'm scared to beat up on the MU too much, but I want it to be dangerous and fair.

Just do whatever seems right. Unintelligent monsters will probably go for whoever is closest initially, or whoever hurts them thereafter. Intelligent monsters should go for soft or threatening targets first. I.e., if the fighters don't form a protective line in front of the magic-user, then it should be no surprise if the magic-user is targetted and killed. The fighters are supposed to protect the magic-users.

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

5. I'm having a hard time deciding how many monsters to put in a dungeon level. I have been using the encounter generator in the core rules to help, but I'm not sure if the product from that is "per dungeon level" or "per encounter".

There's no hard and fast rule. You can just pick a number you feel is right, or roll some dice and let them fall where they may. It's okay if some challenges are too hard for the players... they will have to figure out a cunning plan, or run away and come back later with a stronger force, and so on. Don't sweat it... there is no wrong or right, just figure out what will be fun in game and go with it.

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

Thanks in advance for any help!

It's all good fun ;D

[aldarron]

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

1. Is there a set rule on what a player can do in a combat round (move and attack, double move, or one or the other?)

No, or depends. If your combat round is one minute long, Players can do just about anything, but they only get one roll of the dice per round. DM's handle it differently depending on how they run a combat.

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

2. Should I let the players rest after every encounter to regain hit points or prepare spells? I ask this because it would seem to be a lot less challenging if I do... whats to keep the MU from wanting to rest after every fight to reload that powerful sleep spell?

Bandaging might give back 1 HP if you like, but only an overnight rest will restore spells and more HP. That means they would have to leave the danger area.

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

3. If I do let them rest, is there a penalty? Real-world time or other?

Wandering monsters.

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

4. Monster tactics, how do I decide who the monsters attack? I'm scared to beat up on the MU too much, but I want it to be dangerous and fair.

Your group should have a marching order spelled out so you know who is in the front lines. In confused situations, roll a dice to pick. Keep in mind that once a combat has begun between two characters they should continue to fight each other until one is killed or surrenders.

Feb 15, 2012 10:16:05 GMT -6 @romm said:

5. I'm having a hard time deciding how many monsters to put in a dungeon level. I have been using the encounter generator in the core rules to help, but I'm not sure if the product from that is "per dungeon level" or "per encounter".

Try 1 in 3.

[Deleted]

Wow! Thank you all so much for the advice and wisdom!

I think all I lack now is just the experience... and that is the fun part!

I will share an excerpt from the short introduction I gave to my 7 year old daughter the other night.

She rolled a fighter and I gave her a quest from the local bar keep to go into the cellar and defeat a Giant Rat. This was more about teaching her the game and how to role play by interacting with the NPCs and what not, but she caught on quick.

At one point during the game, she ran away from the rat and asked "Hey, this rope in my backpack, can I try to use it as a whip to attack the rat so I don't have to get close?" (of course I let her)

That was a win no matter what... imagination + problem solving and a great story to tell.

She defeated the rat with barely a scratch on her and all was made right in the little tavern again

Thanks again for all of your help and advice, I will put it to good work!

Romm