Allowing the Caverns of S4: Tsojcanth to Breathe

[kent]

[Edited with Update]

OK, the idea is that the S4 map is a little cramped and it is difficult to imagine all those creatures packed in so tightly.

Exact cuts were made to the original maps so no detail is missing, caverns have just been spread out.

To use this map:

[1] Cut and paste rooms and caverns of your own devising or from old modules into the spaces.

[2] Simply take a marker and scribble on a print out random tunnels and new caves.

Note that a map like this makes the dungeon level highly reusable with new interconnections.

[harami2000]

(aside)

Jan 30, 2012 15:38:22 GMT -6 kent said:

I believe however than in Gygax's enthusiasm to introduce some delicious new monsters he got ahead of himself and crammed them into a map which burst at the seams to accommodate his ideas.

=> www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_s4.html#pub , of course.

[palmer]

What?

I've missed something, haven't I?

[Mr. Darke]

You're not the only one.

[Deleted]

You've gotta love Google for caching sites.

[grodog]

Jan 30, 2012 16:07:22 GMT -6 harami2000 said:

(aside)

Jan 30, 2012 15:38:22 GMT -6 kent said:

I believe however than in Gygax's enthusiasm to introduce some delicious new monsters he got ahead of himself and crammed them into a map which burst at the seams to accommodate his ideas.

=> www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_s4.html#pub , of course.

Thanks, as always, for the plug, David!

Kent: since I missed your original post (although I've viewed the cached image below too), what was your intent with thread, in general---to talk about making the Lesser and Greater Caverns of Tsojcanth larger in size?

[kent]

Feb 8, 2012 0:03:43 GMT -6 grodog said:

Kent: since I missed your original post (although I've viewed the cached image below too), what was your intent with thread, in general---to talk about making the Lesser and Greater Caverns of Tsojcanth larger in size?

I have a habit of deleting maps in threads which have drifted off the first page of the 'new topics' list.

I made two assumptions. The first was that AD&D material, like S4, is seen as integrally related to OD&D and worth discussing on this forum. Im not sure this is true. Including AD&D chat may increase the frequency of posts here but members may not want that. Second I assumed that everyone who had read S4 with a critical eye realised that the caverns were too cramped as a home to such a collection of monsters making it seem like a 'monster zoo' and so I hacked up a quick and dirty map with space for anyone to personalise with a thick marker or by pasting in sections from say the Dungeon Geomorphs or other modules. i gave a slight example between 13 and 14 at the bottom left. The cuts are clean, simply spread out and nothing is missing. I have a higher resolution copy but owners of the original module could look back and forth between the two versions.

[grodog]

I created a significant enlargement of the S4 Greater Caverns, on the theory that it should be more hex-shaped, with the main center hex shown in the original S4 map, and then that another hex surrounded on all sides. My idea was based on some original text from the tourney version, IIRC, and was dead wrong. The larger map, however, I still rather like. I'll have to dig it up to scan sometime.

[kent]

NOTE-- I have updated my 'spaced out' Greater Caverns from S4 Map in the OP and have copied this post into the OP too.

NOTE-- I have a version of this map without the text to make it easier to fill in and a version which is twice the height and width if anyone is interested.

00=====00

OK, the idea is that the S4 map is a little cramped and it is difficult to imagine all those creatures packed in so tightly.

Exact cuts were made to the original maps so no detail is missing, caverns have just been spread out.

To use this map:

[1] Cut and paste rooms and caverns of your own devising or from old modules into the spaces.

[2] Simply take a marker and scribble on a print out random tunnels and new caves.

Note that a map like this makes the dungeon level highly reusable with new interconnections.

[grodog]

Fun stuff, Kent! I'll scan my version of the "hexpanded" Greater Caverns map tonight or tomorrow.

[kent]

Im not sure what you mean by 'hex-shaped' or hexpanded so Im looking forward to seeing your map.

[barrataria]

Jun 23, 2012 12:43:56 GMT -6 kent said:

Exact cuts were made to the original maps so no detail is missing, caverns have just been spread out.

To use this map:

[1] Cut and paste rooms and caverns of your own devising or from old modules into the spaces.

[2] Simply take a marker and scribble on a print out random tunnels and new caves.

Note that a map like this makes the dungeon level highly reusable with new interconnections.

Thanks for the extra explanation as I didn't understand the fantastic idea you have posited here.

I always thought the dungeon lacked empty spaces and was a little too "room+monster+treasure". Not a real criticism as I've used it many times quite happily, but some of the encounters with illusion-creating monsters could be even more horrible with a little foreshadowing in other encounters.

And the extra caves leave plenty of room for some of the monsters in the supplement that didn't get into the module itself. That supplement was always one of my favorites, and the monsters in it were those in the MMII I used more than any of the others.

[kent]

Jul 23, 2012 8:16:30 GMT -6 barrataria said:

Thanks for the extra explanation as I didn't understand the fantastic idea you have posited here.

I always thought the dungeon lacked empty spaces and was a little too "room+monster+treasure". Not a real criticism as I've used it many times quite happily, but some of the encounters with illusion-creating monsters could be even more horrible with a little foreshadowing in other encounters.

And the extra caves leave plenty of room for some of the monsters in the supplement that didn't get into the module itself. That supplement was always one of my favorites, and the monsters in it were those in the MMII I used more than any of the others.

Im glad someone noticed the same issue which I think is pretty obvious. It is one of those modules that is highly regarded by those who know their AD&D but when I first read it, while I was impressed with the supplementary booklet, I felt the environment for the module was a bit contrived. Spreading things out is a trivial fix imv.

[grodog]

Jun 24, 2012 21:08:40 GMT -6 kent said:

Im not sure what you mean by 'hex-shaped' or hexpanded so Im looking forward to seeing your map.

I created this map to explore my "expanded hex" theory of the original Greater Caverns dungeon level map from _S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth_ (TSR, 1982). My theory was completely wrong about the original level design, which became abundantly clear when I saw the original level, drawn by Robert J. Kuntz as part of his Castle El Raja Key dungeons. I still love the idea of expanding the Tsojcanth caverns in general, though, so I continue to play with this concept.

My theory was that the original map design consisted of a set of seven hexes---one central hex, and six surrounding hexes---and that the published versions were forced to truncate that expanded design due to the limitations of the 8.5x11 printed page size. As with so many theories, gaming-related or otherwise: when they intersect with reality's cold, hard facts, they fall to pieces

[mgtremaine]

Jul 31, 2012 8:27:38 GMT -6 grodog said:

My theory was completely wrong about the original level design, which became abundantly clear when I saw the original level, drawn by Robert J. Kuntz as part of his Castle El Raja Key dungeons.

Care to drop any more details, or did I miss something on your site about this?

-Mike

[kent]

Grodog, at first glance I though your map was one of mine. Obviously I like what you've done.

I just altered the contrast so we can better see the structure of your caverns.

[grodog]

Jul 31, 2012 8:34:16 GMT -6 mgtremaine said:

Jul 31, 2012 8:27:38 GMT -6 grodog said:

My theory was completely wrong about the original level design, which became abundantly clear when I saw the original level, drawn by Robert J. Kuntz as part of his Castle El Raja Key dungeons.

Care to drop any more details, or did I miss something on your site about this?

I'll have to go back to see if that update ever made into the S4 page content or not, Mike, but the gist is that the original level map for the Greater Caverns does not leverage a hex-based approach to the design of the map. I thought that the 1982 map looked pretty hex shaped, in broad terms, and that it would be cool if the original included the surrounding hexes around the center displayed in S4. No such luck, though

Now that I look at the map again more closely, I didn't really stick too much to the hex shape in the caverns I added to the "surrounding hexes". I do remember planning to move the teleportation destinations points from the various square caverns surrounding Drelnza's chamber to place them into each of the surrounding hexes, so that they'd be farther away from the center hex, too. I was going to then remove the 30x30 square chambers completely.

Perhaps I'll do another pass on this map again (perhaps using hex paper to rough it out more, too), if/when I run it for our current gaming crew.

Jul 31, 2012 9:49:07 GMT -6 kent said:

Grodog, at first glance I though your map was one of mine. Obviously I like what you've done.

I just altered the contrast so we can better see the structure of your caverns.

Thanks, on both counts, Kent.