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Post by jmccann on Jan 21, 2012 0:34:41 GMT -6
I started writing up an off-topic response on the Delving Deeper thread and thought it would be better to put it here as it is kind of a tangential reply to a tangential reply which has basically nothing to do with Delving Deeper's final round of copy editing. Since WotC has done a 180 in many ways, nothing is certain anymore. Personally, I do not expect to see an OCE reprint any time soon (though, believe me, I would love to be proven wrong!) just due to lack of mass appeal. This conversation has gotten me thinking about a few things. What I don't get is why they don't just POD release it and sell PDFs. Are they worried that it would cannibalize sales of their recent editions? I think it must be, but I think the effect would be small, and the good will might result in some grognards buying 5th e. (hey don't laugh, this is all hypothetical!) if it turns out to be a all-editions-welcomed kumbaya love-in. Then I wondered if it would have a chilling effect on the OSR, cannibalizing sales of newer games including DD. After thinking about it, I don't believe it will for a few reasons. Back in the day I and others had OD&D, basic, advanced, MA, GW, Stormbringer, CoC, etc. etc. etc. some of which I never played or played only once or twice. In other words, there is always room in most people's collections for one more game (or a dozen. But there IS a problem of where to stash them all....) If DD gets good reviews I will probably buy a copy to mine for ideas even if it isn't my primary rule set. Another reason I don't expect it to have much impact on sales of more modern games is that OD&D is (how to put this diplomatically) perceived as being written in a somewhat unclear, oddly organized, obscure and occasionally opaque way that with the benefit of decades of RPG reading and writing that modern game rules avoid, and a lot of referees will welcome having a modern set of rules even if they keep a set of LBBs at the table. And finally, even if as in my case OD&D is referenced as a rule source, I think most OS campaigns are so heavily house-ruled that easy availability of OD&D will have little practical effect. I think it would have a slight opposite effect and if they did it would shine a light on the OSR as more WOTC fanboys would notice the OSR than otherwise, and a few would be attracted to the newer games as well. As for whether the LBBs being released not under OGL would have an impact on OSR titles due to OGL issues, I doubt that it would. Having DD published would probably make it marginally harder for WOTC to establish rights to some aspects of PI but I doubt that it would really have a significant impact. I suspect, despite not being a lawyer, that the existence of S&W, LL, OSRIC and Basic Fantasy (I am probably leaving a few things out) for years means that horse is well and truly out of the barn. One more rule set will change little with regard to publication under OGL. I am curious to read what others think about this. |
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Azafuse
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 245
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Post by Azafuse on Jan 21, 2012 3:29:08 GMT -6
IMHO for the same reason why MicroSoft hasn't put XP back on the market while the official OS was that crappy software known as Vista.
This is business.
This is marketing.
(This is Spartaaaaaaaaa! ;D)
Talking seriously, POD is usually a sign of economic weakness: it is a strategy mainly used to sell products far from being block-busters, used to kill the storage costs.
Aside from that, even if WotC will release a Premium 0e people will always rant about it as it's happening on site like DF (and that's silly).
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 21, 2012 7:24:03 GMT -6
1. I think that WotC should sell PDF and POD of OD&D. It would be smart for the company, since it takes zero investment of time and resources and might generate actual income.
2. I think that such a release is bound to have an impact on the OSR movement. I suspect that more folks would discover OD&D and enjoy it, and fewer people would be interested in the clones.
3. I think in general it would have minimal impact on the sales of their current products. Folks who like 4E like a certain style of play. While a few people might switch, more likely some would find that they like both and would buy from both product lines. (Or buy only OD&D stuff if they don't like 4E already, but they aren't selling to those customers anyway.)
4. The thing that I wonder about is that much of the clone product line is based on the fact that OD&D is out of print and not supported. If WotC was to put OD&D back in print, I wonder if that could have a legal impact on the way clones are written and/or marketed. On the other hand, if we had OD&D again we really wouldn't need the clones any more.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 21, 2012 7:37:30 GMT -6
4. The thing that I wonder about is that much of the clone product line is based on the fact that OD&D is out of print and not supported. If WotC was to put OD&D back in print, I wonder if that could have a legal impact on the way clones are written and/or marketed. On the other hand, if we had OD&D again we really wouldn't need the clones any more. Part of the reason for "the clones" to exist is so that 3rd parties can legally produce supplements for their game of choice. So long as a clone is done "properly" in accordance with the OGL and the usual copyright regulations, then it is perfectly legal and not under any direct threat. The indirect threat, that people might loose interest in favour of "the real deal" is more of a concern. But on that front, if we have the OSR continuing to produce an interesting catalog of supporting materials for original edition, versus WotC with just the box sets, then what are people going to do? The other side of it is that many of the OSR products are produced for the love of it. It's our hobby. It isn't going to stop being our hobby the day WotC decides to do a rerun of the OCE boxed set... well, I don't suppose it will  OSRIC is a case in point. The AD&D core rules are about to be rerun... we will see what happens to OSRIC as a direct result, and extrapolate from there. |
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Post by verhaden on Jan 21, 2012 7:41:22 GMT -6
Think of it this way: Who would you rather support with your hard earned cash? Wizards of the Coast or the likes of John Adams, Matt Finch, Dan Procter, etc.?
It's not a difficult choice for me.
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Post by talysman on Jan 21, 2012 8:49:10 GMT -6
I think the OSR is not really about the clones, but about reviving interest in old school play and publishing products that can be used with the original rules. Most of the clones have free versions; although I'm sure the creators of the clones appreciate a little extra money, making money was not the primary intent of cloning. Replace the clones with reprinted LBBs and you get a shift in the OSR towards publishing house rule supplements.
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Post by aldarron on Jan 21, 2012 10:17:02 GMT -6
.... 2. I think that such a release is bound to have an impact on the OSR movement. I suspect that more folks would discover OD&D and enjoy it, and fewer people would be interested in the clones. .... On the other hand, if we had OD&D again we really wouldn't need the clones any more. I think you are right Marv that a re-release of OD&D would spark even more interest in the OSR, but I think it would actually increase sales/interest of clones, particularly DD. I know that if I were just encountering the 3LBB's and I could download a cleanly edited and clearly explained clone to help me interpret the originals, I definetly would. I think that's doubly true of younger players who would not have the patients or background to try to puzzle out the 3lbbs the way we do. |
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Jan 21, 2012 10:40:41 GMT -6
I posted in in one of the many 5e threads around the net, that a critical success point for 5e for me is that they have open ability for the community to publish "approved for D&D" products like they did back in the old days. To maximize this hobby it is going to take more than just wotc making official releases. They need to stop trying to grab 100% of the pie and instead make the pie larger. I think the exact same thing is true for older versions as well. print 0e, 1e, 2e, hell even 3e and 4e, and open the doors for all comers to support each of those versions without all of the silly OSRIC and other twisting that everyone does.
This would have a deep impact on LL, DD, and others as the hobbyists would start supporting the "real thing". It would defracture the playing base as everyone would start playing D&D again.
Unfortunately, it looks like mearls hasn't logged in here for about two years, so the chances of him reading this are basically nil.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2012 12:02:05 GMT -6
Hokay.
Even though putting the LBB up on PDF didn't take much... you have to pay somebody to do the accounting for the sales.
I strongly suspect that the PDFs brought in less revenue then it cost to administer them. At that point, you pull the plug no matter what line of business you're in.
"We lose 75 cents for every PDF somebody downloads."
"We'll make up for it in volume!!!"
"Um...."
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Jan 21, 2012 12:07:00 GMT -6
Administer them?
What exactly are the administration costs for PDFs?
"Hey we sold 30 of these this month"
"Nice!"
"Yup! That's another $150 revenue. Minus the 5 mins we've been talking about it at $60/hr means that's another $145 made this month."
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Jan 21, 2012 12:58:35 GMT -6
Think of it this way: Who would you rather support with your hard earned cash? Wizards of the Coast or the likes of John Adams, Matt Finch, Dan Procter, etc.? It's not a difficult choice for me. Totally with you here! Sent from my ADR8995 using ProBoards |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2012 14:13:29 GMT -6
Administer them? What exactly are the administration costs for PDFs? "Hey we sold 30 of these this month" "Nice!" "Yup! That's another $150 revenue. Minus the 5 mins we've been talking about it at $60/hr means that's another $145 made this month." 1) Somebody has to track the number of actual sales. 2) Compare this with the number of downloads 3) Compare this to the dollar volume DTRPG has sent you 4) Calculate fixed and variable costs of the PDFs. In other words, doing business online for a large company is more complicated than "I'll sell you an apple for ten cents." For further details contact any reliable college offering business classes. |
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Post by jmccann on Jan 21, 2012 14:20:29 GMT -6
4. The thing that I wonder about is that much of the clone product line is based on the fact that OD&D is out of print and not supported. If WotC was to put OD&D back in print, I wonder if that could have a legal impact on the way clones are written and/or marketed. On the other hand, if we had OD&D again we really wouldn't need the clones any more. As long as the retro-clone rule sets are carefully written to be compliant with the OGL there should not be a legal issue based strictly on the reissue. I don't think they would be more likely to pursue violations of long-published works as a result of reissuing the LBBs. I think there could be a chilling effect if WOTC decided to start throwing their weight around since the tiny OSR publishers are not going to be willing or able to put up a legal defence in most instances, but I think that would be largely independent of a LBB reissue decision. It will be interesting to see how OSRIC, a the clear 1e AD&D retro-clone is treated. I don't have any kind of data to back this up, but I think that WOTC would not want to risk the loss of goodwill that going after a retro-clone would result in. They seem to be interested in bringing old edition enthusiasts back into the fold, so I think that is unlikely as a move like that would piss off everyone who plays an edition < 4. Regarding your second point about need, I have to disagree - new people now are not going to have the patience to slog through the LBBs. We love it and think it is charming, but I don't think that demand for the clones will dry up as a result of a LBB reissue. Just look at the recent back and forth about when HP are rolled for - a basic, crucial point that affects all characters is poorly specified enough to support multiple interpretations. And that is not an anomaly. The clones perform a valuable service by expressing some (more or less) compatible and coherent interpretation of the LBBs. |
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Jan 21, 2012 16:07:27 GMT -6
Administer them? What exactly are the administration costs for PDFs? "Hey we sold 30 of these this month" "Nice!" "Yup! That's another $150 revenue. Minus the 5 mins we've been talking about it at $60/hr means that's another $145 made this month." 1) Somebody has to track the number of actual sales. 2) Compare this with the number of downloads 3) Compare this to the dollar volume DTRPG has sent you 4) Calculate fixed and variable costs of the PDFs. In other words, doing business online for a large company is more complicated than "I'll sell you an apple for ten cents." For further details contact any reliable college offering business classes. How does one track actual sales versus number of downloads? What does that even mean? Unlike in the 70s, most of this stuff is done by computers these days, it's fairly simple to populate a cell in excel. What would you say the fixed and variable costs of a PDF are? That change from month to month, I mean. Unlike apples, PDFs don't degrade, need transport, need maintenance, go bad, cost additional monthly expenses. I'm certain that DTRPG has all of their costs of hosting, etc, rolled up into the percentage of their take per sale of the PDF. Business isn't some tricky black box, even at the relatively modest size of WOTC. It's fairly straightforward. This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry and Kramer are talking about write-offs and Jerry finally says to Kramer, "You don't even know what a write-off is." |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2012 19:18:52 GMT -6
How does one track actual sales versus number of downloads? What does that even mean? Unlike in the 70s, most of this stuff is done by computers these days, it's fairly simple to populate a cell in excel. What would you say the fixed and variable costs of a PDF are? That change from month to month, I mean. Unlike apples, PDFs don't degrade, need transport, need maintenance, go bad, cost additional monthly expenses. I'm certain that DTRPG has all of their costs of hosting, etc, rolled up into the percentage of their take per sale of the PDF. Business isn't some tricky black box, even at the relatively modest size of WOTC. It's fairly straightforward. This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry and Kramer are talking about write-offs and Jerry finally says to Kramer, "You don't even know what a write-off is." I have an MBA. Do you? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2012 19:20:01 GMT -6
And my Jedi powers predict that the next post will begin with "No, but..."
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Post by talysman on Jan 21, 2012 20:06:48 GMT -6
And my Jedi powers predict that the next post will begin with "No, but..." How about "No, but I can write a Perl script..."? =) Although I agree that there might be a hidden cost that was really behind WotC pulling PDFs and that online sales need to be tracked, I don't agree that the second point is linked to or follows from the first. WotC almost certainly has someone in charge of sales -- all sales; perhaps several someones. If WotC uses one online retailer to sell PDFs, essentially they are just another distributor; it's not going to be any harder to track orders "sent" to Drive Thru RPG than those sent to Amazon. In fact, it will be easier, because for physical orders, the sales staff has to deal with two parties for every order: the printer and the distributor. They have to make sure that the distributor gets the physical product from the printer, and they have to make sure that the distributor is paying for product sold, *and* they have to deduct unsold product that was returned. For PDFs, they only "ship" one item per product, and that can come directly from WotC instead of from their printer. Now, RPG-only distributors like Drive Thru RPG may have turned out to be more hassle than they were worth. This does not mean that WotC isn't considering selling ebooks (not PDFs) through the Kindle, Nook, and iTunes stores. In fact, they may feel much more comfortable working with them, since the ebook sales can just be handled as a part of the account they already have with Amazon and Barnes & Noble. The real problem is whether ebooks of the LBBs or other older material would generate enough sales that Amazon, B&N, or Apple would be willing to sell them at all. In other words, it may be too high a cost for the *distributor* to consider. |
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Post by Harbinger on Jan 21, 2012 20:11:54 GMT -6
No, but.... I'm not getting involved in that spat.
Here's my personal opinion - if the AD&D reprint is successful WoTC will reprint OD&D in 2014 as a 40th anniversary edition. I doubt they would expect that anyone would actually play it - it just for the nostalgia and curiosity market.
What I wish they'd also do is bundle in a re-edit of the rules so it would be playable by current gamers. Of course then we'd be arguing for years about changes in wording or clarifications that ruin the whole thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2012 20:17:23 GMT -6
Now, RPG-only distributors like Drive Thru RPG may have turned out to be more hassle than they were worth. Right; "cost" can have many forms. This is why West End Games lost the Star Wars RPG license; administering the license was more of a hassle for Lucasfilms than it was worth. |
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Jan 21, 2012 21:24:47 GMT -6
How does one track actual sales versus number of downloads? What does that even mean? Unlike in the 70s, most of this stuff is done by computers these days, it's fairly simple to populate a cell in excel. What would you say the fixed and variable costs of a PDF are? That change from month to month, I mean. Unlike apples, PDFs don't degrade, need transport, need maintenance, go bad, cost additional monthly expenses. I'm certain that DTRPG has all of their costs of hosting, etc, rolled up into the percentage of their take per sale of the PDF. Business isn't some tricky black box, even at the relatively modest size of WOTC. It's fairly straightforward. This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry and Kramer are talking about write-offs and Jerry finally says to Kramer, "You don't even know what a write-off is." I have an MBA. Do you? No, I've been running my own business for nearly two decades. I've hired a couple guys with MBAs to work for me though. They don't make it a habit to run full audits on a monthly basis of the companies we work with. We do have nice excel sheets, some of which I made, that do a lot of this really difficult accounting work you speak of. And something like a PDF on DTRPG would really take about 15 minutes a month to "administer" as you speak about. Have you dealt with software and online product at all? It's quite a bit different than it was 20 years ago. Computers are pretty awesome stuff. If you need a job let me know, I have an opening for a bookkeeper, actually. |
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Post by jmccann on Jan 21, 2012 21:54:04 GMT -6
The real problem is whether ebooks of the LBBs or other older material would generate enough sales that Amazon, B&N, or Apple would be willing to sell them at all. In other words, it may be too high a cost for the *distributor* to consider. I work at Amazon, and Amazon will happily host your digital files with a detail page on the retail website even if no one ever buys one. They will also happily store as many physical items as you like with a detail page as well. There will be a monthly fee, but there is no lower limit to sales for Amazon to sell your products. |
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Aplus
Level 6 Magician
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Post by Aplus on Jan 23, 2012 1:02:11 GMT -6
I encounter a lot of AD&D players that don't even really know what OD&D is, so my man-on-the-street anecdotal guess is that there isn't enough demand to warrant doing anything with OD&D.
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Post by Mr. Darke on Jan 24, 2012 13:16:33 GMT -6
If there is an OD&D reprint I would buy it just so I can have one. More than likely, I would continue on with my version of the game which is a mash of S&W and OD&D.
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Post by keith418 on Jan 24, 2012 21:54:57 GMT -6
I'd love to have a nice version of the LBBs, but my personal game, too, is a version of S&W:WB + OD&D. Should a new edition appear, nothing would change.
I was thinking, today, what if AD&D had never appeared and we would have had nearly 40 years of just OD&D style supplements - like the Judges Guild stuff for 40 years? How great would that have been?
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Koren n'Rhys
Level 6 Magician
Got your mirrorshades?
Posts: 355
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Post by Koren n'Rhys on Jan 25, 2012 9:44:29 GMT -6
Personally, I wouldn't buy them, though I would give credit to WotC for putting them out. I don't play OD&D, but have read them out of curiosity. The booklets and an awesome single-volume version are "out there" should one go looking. In play, I've used S&W to get the same fix.
The same holds for the AD&D books. I have my old copies to read and enjoy, but don't actually play that either. I'm an RC guy primarily. I do feel that WotC will sell a lot more of these than they ever would OD&D books. My feeling is that more people still actively play it and having a new printing available would make it easier to attract new players.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 25, 2012 19:37:20 GMT -6
Think of it this way: Who would you rather support with your hard earned cash? Wizards of the Coast or the likes of John Adams, Matt Finch, Dan Procter, etc.? It's not a difficult choice for me. Well ... yeah, when you put it that way...  |
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Post by Mr. Darke on Jan 26, 2012 17:56:53 GMT -6
Think of it this way: Who would you rather support with your hard earned cash? Wizards of the Coast or the likes of John Adams, Matt Finch, Dan Procter, etc.? It's not a difficult choice for me. My money goes to whomever happens to be selling something I want to buy. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2012 20:07:32 GMT -6
My money goes to whomever happens to be selling something I want to buy. Always a good choice! This response made me smile, have an exalt just for helping keep it light around here. |
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Post by Harbinger on Jan 27, 2012 9:27:43 GMT -6
I think I now have enough rulebooks, between OD&D, B/X, AD&D 1e, 3.5e, 4e, S&W, S&W:Whitebox (BHP Box), S&W:Whitebox (BHP Hardcover), S&W:Whitebox (4th), S&W:Core, LL, LL OE, LL AEC, LotFP, LotFP:GE, OSRIC.
For the record, we use LL & LL AEC at the table, but my heart belongs to S&W.
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Koren n'Rhys
Level 6 Magician
Got your mirrorshades?
Posts: 355
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Post by Koren n'Rhys on Jan 27, 2012 12:01:33 GMT -6
I think I now have enough rulebooks, between OD&D, B/X, AD&D 1e, 3.5e, 4e, S&W, S&W:Whitebox (BHP Box), S&W:Whitebox (BHP Hardcover), S&W:Whitebox (4th), S&W:Core, LL, LL OE, LL AEC, LotFP, LotFP:GE, OSRIC. For the record, we use LL & LL AEC at the table, but my heart belongs to S&W. What - you didn't want to spend any money on S&W: Complete or Basic Fantasy Roleplaying? Incompletist! ;D |
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