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Post by calithena on Jan 8, 2012 22:32:35 GMT -6
Thinking along the lines of Gamma World as opposed to Twilight:2000, what works define the genre for you?
This is very off the cuff but I will list a few things I thought of to get the ball rolling:
Books
Hiero's Journey, Sterling Lanier
The Pastel City, M. John Harrison
Witherwing, David Jarrett
Visual Media
Wizards, Ralph Bakshi
Thundarr the Barbarian, Steve Gerber, Jack Kirby, Alex Toth, etc.
Games
Gamma World, James M. Ward and Gary Jaquet
Encounter Critical, Hank Riley and Jim Ireland
Mutant Future, Ryan Denison and Daniel Proctor
Like I said, super-quick. What works define the genre for you?
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Azafuse
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Post by Azafuse on Jan 9, 2012 4:40:08 GMT -6
Books
Terry Brooks' Shannara fits in this genre, because the story is set in a post-apocalyptic Earth where you find both magic and technologic remains.
Visual Media
Hayao Miyazaki's Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind, set in post-apocalyptic and polluted Earth (venomous seas and forests full of spores able to turn flesh into stone), where you can find genetic manipulation and people with great empathic powers.
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Post by talysman on Jan 9, 2012 11:07:17 GMT -6
Here's some inspiration that does include magic, but is far out enough that you could say "it's like this, but also there's magic."
Books
The Stone God Awakens, Philip Jose Farmer. Man is put in suspended animation for a thousand years, wakes up to find that all humans are replaced by bioengineered manimal tribes and the continent is dominated by a single intelligent tree.
Flesh, Philip Jose Farmer. Astronauts return to Earth after several centuries, find that civilization has collapsed, replaced with a pagan fertility religion. Main character gets stag horns grafted to his head that transform him into a rutting avatar of a pagan god.
Film
Beneath the Planet of the Apes. The psionic mutants are close enough to magic, aren't they? The first movie and the fifth are also useful, but they have less of the feel of science fantasy.
The Ator movies. Terrible, actually, but they are done as barbarian fantasy, but there's a definite reference to an earlier technological age. In one movie, Ator detonates an atomic bomb to prevent such a dangerous secret from falling into the wrong hands.
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monk
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Post by monk on Jan 10, 2012 13:13:18 GMT -6
Astronauts return to Earth after several centuries, find that civilization has collapsed, replaced with a pagan fertility religion. Main character gets stag horns grafted to his head that transform him into a rutting avatar of a pagan god. Holy crap! |
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Post by talysman on Jan 10, 2012 14:17:33 GMT -6
Astronauts return to Earth after several centuries, find that civilization has collapsed, replaced with a pagan fertility religion. Main character gets stag horns grafted to his head that transform him into a rutting avatar of a pagan god. Holy crap! Exactly! I think the book pretty much exists solely because Farmer wanted to be shocking. But it's got a lot of idea usable in a weird post-apoc setting, like the basic idea of grafting animal parts, the fertility cult, the rival monotheist country that has turned vague recollections of baseball into a religion (worshiping Mighty Casey.) |
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monk
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Post by monk on Jan 10, 2012 15:17:27 GMT -6
That sounds awesome. I might need to read that and pick up some new ideas, as I find my creativity is getting a little stale right now and weird stuff like that tends to liven things up inside my head. Thanks for the tip!
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terje
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Post by terje on Jan 10, 2012 19:35:32 GMT -6
BooksHayao Miyazaki's Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind, set in post-apocalyptic and polluted Earth (venomous seas and forests full of spores able to turn flesh into stone), where you can find genetic manipulation and people with great empathic powers. Seconded. Nausicaä is one of the best sf works I have read, in any media. Read it, even if you dislike manga and even if you have seen the movie (which only covers the first album). Its a great post-apocalypse story with bizarre creatures and fascinating technological artifacts. Lots of stuff that you can steal for games. |
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Post by foxroe on Jan 11, 2012 7:27:47 GMT -6
Games
Carcosa
Empire of the Petal Throne
Metamorphosis Alpha
Movies
A Boy and his Dog (1975)
Zardoz (1974)
Books
The Horseclans novels by Robert Adams
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terje
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Post by terje on Jan 11, 2012 18:45:19 GMT -6
Movies: Logan's Run
Books: Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood, Empire of the Atom by AE van Vogt
Video games: Fallout
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Post by garham on Jan 15, 2012 23:36:02 GMT -6
Hopefully this is an okay thread to delurk on as it is pertinent to my interests (I actually have thought about starting a discussion on the subject elsewhere!)
Andre Norton: Star Man's Son and No Night Without Stars. These are juvenile SF but are still interesting enough reads. The former contains what I'd guess is probably one of the earliest mentions of post-nuclear rat-people (early 1950's?). Also psychic cats.
Robert Adams: Horseclans series.
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Post by murquhart72 on Jan 16, 2012 17:21:20 GMT -6
I was hoping someone would mention A Boy and His Dog (also a novel) and Horseclans. I'd add Korgoth of Barbaria (only one episode, but very Thundarr like) and films like The Road and The Book of Eli.
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Post by foxroe on Jan 16, 2012 20:39:14 GMT -6
Ooooo, Book of Eli... forgot that one!  |
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Post by garham on Jan 19, 2012 11:12:46 GMT -6
The Ator movies. Terrible, actually, but they are done as barbarian fantasy, but there's a definite reference to an earlier technological age. In one movie, Ator detonates an atomic bomb to prevent such a dangerous secret from falling into the wrong hands. Checked it out, awesome. Also awesome is Yor: Hunter from the future and Metalstorm: the Destruction of Jared Syn. I do find it somewhat puzzling however that while it seems easy to dig up relevant B-Movies, identifying the pulp-adventure fiction that could have spawned Gamma World without reference to film is a bit trickier. I'm not quite willing to buy that this sort of post-apocalypse is primarily influenced by films like Mad-Max, Star Wars, and Planet of the Apes (How could it be? Hollywood's never had an original idea, even back in the 70's) but all the same I'm somewhat stumped. |
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Post by talysman on Jan 19, 2012 13:38:21 GMT -6
I do find it somewhat puzzling however that while it seems easy to dig up relevant B-Movies, identifying the pulp-adventure fiction that could have spawned Gamma World without reference to film is a bit trickier. I'm not quite willing to buy that this sort of post-apocalypse is primarily influenced by films like Mad-Max, Star Wars, and Planet of the Apes (How could it be? Hollywood's never had an original idea, even back in the 70's) but all the same I'm somewhat stumped. For one thing, I and perhaps others may have misinterpreted the original request. The use of the phrase "science fantasy" made me think specifically of post-apoc tech + magic, which is more a comic book and movie thing and is a fairly recent phenomenon. For another, although I've read a lot of old fantasy/sci-fi short stories, I'm less familiar with novels... and a lot of the stuff I've read I've forgotten, anyways, or forgotten the author and title at least. Whereas I've watched way more classic TV and classic sci-fi film, so I can give many more examples of TV and film than novels. Also, although I could argue that it's not true that Hollywood has *never* had an original idea, Planet of the Apes (for example) was a book first. I think a lot of early post-apoc written sf is more like Twilight: 2000 or even grimmer, not very science-fantasy at all. Gamma World-ish science fantasy post-apoc is a weird mix of pessimism and optimism, when you think about it; there's no dwelling on the implications of civilization being destroyed. Most classic written SF, even the least sophisticated, is either purely optimistic (the majority) or purely pessimistic (increasing as you get into the '50s and '60s,) and if there is an apocalypse or cataclysm, it is the focus of the story, not an afterthought. Jack Kirby or other comic book writers may have actually invented science fantasy post-apoc in the '60s. Although when I just checked for the name of a comic Kirby did about a kid in post-apoc Earth (which turned out to be Kamandi,) I discovered it was from the early '70s, which would mean it was caching in on the Planet of the Apes film craze. Maybe Planet of the Apes invented the whole genre? In which case, it was primarily the film (apes in the book are supposed to be much higher tech and there's less of a radioactive wasteland.) |
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Post by talysman on Jan 19, 2012 15:15:55 GMT -6
Oh, and I should add, if you're looking for a pre-Mad Max source for post-apoc imagery (but closer to pessimistic sf than to science fantasy,) track down Things to Come (1936,) loosely based on some H G Wells books. Pretty much every science fiction image (film or comics) ultimately comes from either this movie or Metropolis. Things to Come specifically gives us a world in ruins following a world war, war chieftains in crazy barbarian costumes, a bioengineered plague that turns people into zombies, and scientists trying to restore civilization by rediscovering high tech.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2012 17:06:39 GMT -6
I'll second Andre Norton's Star Man's Son (also known as 2500 A.D. and various combinations of the two titles). It's a coming of age story, with a strong theme of rebuilding and reconciliation, while avoiding the mistakes of the past. The basic premise should be very familiar to most Gamma World players: Start in a remote enclave, and then venture forth into an unknown and mysterious, yet meta-familiar, world where the ancient roads and towns are being being absorbed by the wilderness. There are relatively primitive tribes, the aforementioned psychic cats and nasty and insidious rat-things, and slightly futuristic engines. Miller, Walter M. A Canticle for Leibowitz (secondarily, Saint Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman). Canticle is slow-building, difficult to interpret, and heavily steeped in Catholic mythology — but it may just be the best story ever written in the genre. Ignoring its literary merits, it still includes sainted engineers, monasteries dedicated to clandestinely keeping scientific knowledge alive through the new dark ages, the Wandering Jew and a mutant Jesus (yes), and a truly epic scope (the book literally covers thousands of years as civilization climbs back up to modern technological heights and beyond) — though it's more a backdrop for religious themes and mysticism than an extrapolation of a possible (or even fantastic) future. Adventure Time. Yes, the current kid's cartoon with really weird animation, a stretchy dog, dozens of princesses, and a kingdom of people who are made out of candy. Despite the sugary trappings, it's pretty clear that it's actually a horrible post-apocalyptic setting, just one seen through optimistic 12-year-old eyes. (Kids and adults get entirely different things out of the series.) There are dimensions full of world-eating vampires, Deep Ones straight out of Lovecraft (minus the kitten hat), hidden underground bunkers, all kinds of Ancient relics (like video cassettes), and at least one Ancient who survived the holocaust (though it's not clear if he remembers). Despite this, the overriding theme is friendship and pure heroism. Plus, there's a whole episode that's a love-song to D&D, with a dungeon full of stuff like (chest) mimics and trappers. Anderson, Poul. Orion Shall Rise. No gonzo mutations, but much steal-worthy material: Technological clans, oppressive feudalistic conquerers, a dirigible-city, an outcast piebald genetically engineered human with 50 parents, a society that's developed a wind- and water-using alternative to traditional ecologically-harmful technologies, and a spaceship that flies by chucking atomic bombs. The societies and projected technologies are the most game-relevant parts. Zelazny, Roger. This Immortal (originally, ... And Call Me Conrad). A mix of aliens, wacky mutations, mythology, and wry humor in a post-apocalyptic Earth. Elements include the (giant) Black Boar of Thessaly, a plague of spiderbats (pre-goats), a duel with the sling of David, a pseudo-vampire, a practicing anthropologist (ick), aliens tourists who come to gawk at a species stupid enough to destroy their own world, Hot Spots where the radiation has caused mythic creatures like satyrs to start to reappear, deconstructivist art, armored dogs, anti-alien terrorists, boa-diles, and the ugly, immensely strong, and apparently immortal protagonist. Zelazny, Roger. d**nation Alley. A story about a running a serum from California to Boston, across a totally gonzo wasteland. Features a ridiculously (in an entertaining way) badass biker, giant scorpions, 40-foot long battlecars, winds that scour the tops off mountains, rains of boulders, dead cities cluttered with wrecked cars, and two pockets of surviving civilization. As far as I can tell, the the only thing the movie adaptation borrowed from the book is an economy version of the car. (Curious how the word filter not only censored the title, but lowercased the first letter.) On the non-fiction side, The Boy Scout Handbook, The Zombie Survival Guide, and The U.S. Army Survival Manual might all be useful. However, the best single resource on the topic is available in its entirety online: Nuclear Holocausts: Atomic War in Fiction by Paul Brian. It's a lengthy survey (the bibliography alone is amazing) of the subgenre of post-apocalytic fiction that inspired Gamma World. |
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Post by darkling on Jan 23, 2012 18:48:34 GMT -6
I have to second Canticle for Leibowitz and add The Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe for the far future weird fantasy genre.
You know there is an excellent and odd roguelike of the genre called Caves of Qud that is floating around the net. Quite fun!
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Post by foxroe on Jan 23, 2012 21:53:38 GMT -6
Gamma World-ish science fantasy post-apoc is a weird mix of pessimism and optimism, when you think about it; there's no dwelling on the implications of civilization being destroyed. Most classic written SF, even the least sophisticated, is either purely optimistic (the majority) or purely pessimistic (increasing as you get into the '50s and '60s,) and if there is an apocalypse or cataclysm, it is the focus of the story, not an afterthought. Well said, and no surprise considering when MA and Gamma World (and 50/60/70's SF) were written. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 25, 2012 20:14:08 GMT -6
GamesGamma World, James M. Ward and Gary Jaquet You mentioned Gamma World, but I can't believe that you forgot Metamorphosis Alpha! MA is PA on a ship instead of on a planet, but it's awesome! BooksThe Horseclans novels by Robert Adams I love these in concept but have a hard time reading them. Something about Robert Adams' writing style, I suppose, or perhaps the fact that my paperback copies have sort of tiny font and my eyes rebel when I squint at it. I've read the first book many times and books 2-3 a couple of times each, but have never worked my way through the whole set... |
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Post by garham on Feb 20, 2012 22:35:28 GMT -6
Interesting stuff. The results of a bit of digging around have told me that the other 2 big influences (apart from Star Man's Son) on GW and MA are, respectively, Brian Aldiss' Hot-House and Non-Stop (Variant title: Starship). I almost can't believe I've never been told to read Non-Stop before as it literally *is* MA in concept (ie. a multi-generational starship, exposed to radiation, occupants don't all realize that they are on a starship, psychic bunnies etc.)
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Post by cadriel on Feb 21, 2012 5:12:56 GMT -6
One source I'd consider is a couple of the early Instrumentality stories by Cordwainer Smith. Specifically, Mark Elf and Queen of the Afternoon are both part of setting up Smith's massive, mostly starfaring Instrumentality timeline. Things like the manshonyaggers (Menschenjäger) and the general feel are very good for early post-apocalyptic scifi. |
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Post by garham on Feb 22, 2012 10:58:29 GMT -6
I'm also wondering about the influence of sword-and-planet and dying earth fiction (not JV) here.
Not particularly relevant to GW as we know it, but nonetheless I think an interesting possible campaign starter is Moorcock's the Ice Schooner. Not really one of his better works imo, but still, cities tucked away in crevasses from the wind, sailing ships equipped with giant rudders gliding across a frozen post-apocalyptic landscape, ancient cities buried beneath glaciers, mutant hairy land whales, mutated barbarian raiding tribes... could be pretty cool if you threw in some of the standard mutant bunnies and stuff... or possibly just contained to one area of the map where people went to escape the worst effects of most-nuke radiation.
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Post by DungeonDevil on May 23, 2012 2:19:04 GMT -6
I'm tempted to add The City and the Stars, but cannot remember if that was technically after some apocalyptic event or just thrust forward into a mind-bogglingly remote future where humanity had migrated elsewhere. It's been probably 25 years since I last read it.
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