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Post by makofan on Oct 19, 2011 19:53:10 GMT -6
My friend and I are having an interesting conflict. His party (2 F, 2 MU, 2 C) are attacking a palisaded orc stronghold with 600 orcs. His two MU's have cast Phantasmal Forces, creating a huge red dragon each that are strafing the tower and burning the orcs. I had one of the catapults hit a dragon and dispell it, and said that the illusory fire of the dragon could not burn the walls.
He counters that the catapult rock would not dispell the dragon as it needs to be touched by a living creature, and that the orcs, believing the dragon illusion, would also believe that the towers are burning down.
Any thoughts?
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Post by talysman on Oct 19, 2011 20:26:31 GMT -6
The real goal should be consistency, rather than playing by the book. So, if you rule that any physical contact, not just contact with a living creature, will dispel an illusion, and illusory fire would not burn the walls, then you should follow that rule in other cases as well; an illusory pit can't cause damage, just scare away adventurers, and things like dust in the air would dispel an illusion.
My personal ruling would be that your friend is right about the catapult, but wrong about the flames. Walls can't be fooled by an illusion, although viewers can be fooled into thinking the walls are burning. Catapult rocks, on the other hand, can't damage an illusion, so as long as the caster makes the illusion react to physical events in a believable fashion, the illusion will continue to deceive. I'd use a die roll to see if a spell caster can react fast enough to quick changes of events; failure doesn't dispel the illusion, but makes it more obvious. The orcs would have a bonus to morale when told to attack the "dragon", because they've begun to doubt it.
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Post by mgtremaine on Oct 20, 2011 7:22:33 GMT -6
Ah good ole illusions ... I think you should remind your friend that it is only a 2nd Level spell and then ask him if he thinks that 2 casters with 1 second level spell should be able to destroy a town. 600 Orcs is a heck of large encounter it should be harder then just casting a couple of Phantasmal Forces. IMHO. Now specifically the wizards should be concentrating and reacting in a "narrative" of how they adjust their illusions to the battle. I would probably accept the catapult not dispelling if they, the wizards, described the adjustments to the illusion they made for each rock. However if hundreds of arrows are are also hitting it then I suspect the tipping point is reached and arrows are going to be passing through it without believable imagery. Under no case should the walls burn down, the fire is not real and with out a second illusion to create an separate image of an out of control fire it is beyond the scope of a single spell. (Note a well played out team effort could have been down with 1 Red Dragon and then a second spell that was the fire burning part of the wall, that I would allow.) Whatever the outcome just remind him/her that it is a 2nd level spell and should have limitations. What level are the M-U's by the way. Just curious. -Mike
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Post by makofan on Oct 20, 2011 9:59:59 GMT -6
The MU's are both level 4 (the dwarf is level 6, the other fighter and the two clerics are level 5)
Good advice so far, thank you
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Post by DungeonDevil on Oct 20, 2011 22:57:18 GMT -6
A party of 6 against 600? *gulp* Alone, they would be overrun by a force sallying from the fort. However if they are a mere diversion on one side of the fort while another force (of, say, several hundred) sneaks up on the other side to effect the main attack...
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Post by makofan on Oct 21, 2011 8:08:20 GMT -6
A party of 6 against 600? *gulp* Alone, they would be overrun by a force sallying from the fort. However if they are a mere diversion on one side of the fort while another force (of, say, several hundred) sneaks up on the other side to effect the main attack... They have backup - a tribal unit of 14 friendly werebears ready to pounce as shock troops when the moment is right
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Post by calithena on Oct 21, 2011 9:48:24 GMT -6
PF always was one of the most powerful spells in the original game. I might play it that the illusory red dragon has the same hit points as a regular red dragon until someone disbelieves it. So the catapult hit might not dispel it outright, but doing 3-18 or 6-36 would put a big dent in the big fella. The walls would seem to be burning, and the fire could do damage to orcs, but the walls themselves would never really crumble, though I suppose they might seem to. It is hard DMing against PF because unlike players (who can look for inconsistencies in your descriptions, and you can even give them small ones to trigger smarter players to try to disbelieve) you know what's going on and so it's hard to role play when your monsters etc. disbeleive. I don't blame people for weakening this spell, but on the other hand you can always let the players get smug and have the next Orc leader they meet wear a Ring of True Seeing.
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Post by calithena on Oct 21, 2011 9:49:27 GMT -6
I should say though that I've always allowed PF to be pretty potent.
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Post by Zenopus on Oct 22, 2011 8:12:52 GMT -6
My friend and I are having an interesting conflict. His party (2 F, 2 MU, 2 C) are attacking a palisaded orc stronghold with 600 orcs. His two MU's have cast Phantasmal Forces, creating a huge red dragon each that are strafing the tower and burning the orcs. I had one of the catapults hit a dragon and dispell it, and said that the illusory fire of the dragon could not burn the walls. He counters that the catapult rock would not dispell the dragon as it needs to be touched by a living creature, and that the orcs, believing the dragon illusion, would also believe that the towers are burning down. Any thoughts? From the original description of Phantasmal Forces (Men & Magic, page 24) "the illusion will continue unless touched by some living creature". From this, I gather that if any part of the illusion is touched, it ends. Thus, in this case, if the illusion of the dragon creates illusionary fire that burns the orcs, as soon as that illusionary fire touches the orcs, the entire illusion will be dispelled. The orcs might take damage if they believe the illusionary fire, but the illusion will immediately end at that point. Since it's only a 2nd level spell I think this limitation calls for reinforcement. If the caster wants the illusion to last for a long time, they need to make sure that no part of it, including ranged effects (fire, arrows, gas) interacts with a living creature.
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Post by dekelia on Oct 22, 2011 12:30:06 GMT -6
It is far easier to just treat the illusionary dragons as real dragons as far as combat is concerned. If the catapult hits, the dragon takes damage as normal. If you want to rationalize it, then just assume if it didn't then it would be unrealistic and therefore easy to disbelieve. If they insist that it does no damage, then give everyone who sees it a saving throw to disbelieve each time it happens.
I can see their point btb, but that description has other issues. I think we're all playing OD&D to avoid those kinds of btb rules arguments.
On the other side, clearly illusionary fire can't damage walls. The people that believe it may see it as burning (including all of the effects), but it won't really burn.
By the way, I encourage anyone who has to DM or play with phantasmal forces to read Thuvia, Maid of Mars. I read it a couple years ago and suddenly everything became more clear. I saw recently, that Rob Kuntz said that book was the inspiration for the spell, which makes perfect sense.
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Oct 31, 2011 11:09:26 GMT -6
Let's see...
"Note the illusion is visual and not auditory." The attack will be completely silent. No roar from the dragons, not even the sound of their beating wings. No crackling fire and wood. Furthermore, it's a safe bet the spell doesn't provide for the smell and heat of the fire, either. That should be a saving throw to nearby orcs, at least.
"Range: 240 feet" That's 80 yards, which is really not much. I'd interpret it as saying that the dragon cannot be further away from the caster at any time. Now, if we imagine an isosceles right-angled triangle with the MU at the right angle and the other two points being the furthest point where the dragon can be in its back-and-forth strafing, that means the dragon's "strafing run" must be 113 yards long, including pulling up, turning around (and that probably needs quite a bit of space as turning on the dime would make the spell RATHER suspicious), descending, doing the actual fiery strafing, then pulling up and wheeling around on the other side - that's REALLY short for something like this. This assumes the wizard is okay with standing 56 yards from the palisade and exposing himself. If he wants to cast the spell from further back, the dragon's strafing run shortens even more.
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Post by talysman on Oct 31, 2011 14:34:31 GMT -6
Where are you pulling the first quote from? Men & Magic doesn't say anything about visual and non-auditory. That was a later elaboration of the spell; I don't think it showed up until after Audible Glammer (Glamour) was added, although Greyhawk adding Ventriloquism and Magic Mouth must have been a sign of which way the wind was shifting...
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Post by dicebro on Feb 20, 2021 11:36:13 GMT -6
My friend and I are having an interesting conflict. His party (2 F, 2 MU, 2 C) are attacking a palisaded orc stronghold with 600 orcs. His two MU's have cast Phantasmal Forces, creating a huge red dragon each that are strafing the tower and burning the orcs. I had one of the catapults hit a dragon and dispell it, and said that the illusory fire of the dragon could not burn the walls. He counters that the catapult rock would not dispell the dragon as it needs to be touched by a living creature, and that the orcs, believing the dragon illusion, would also believe that the towers are burning down. Any thoughts? I think the rock would pass through the dragon, thereby giving a bonus to the chance of disbelieving. I think that the orcs could believe that the towers were on fire, but that would depend on the odds of disbelieving. Here are some other thoughts/options: Save vs spell to disbelieve. Real damage caused by the phantasm: 1d6 +1 per level of the caster. The victims, within the area of effect of the spell, either injure or kill themselves trying to get away: they could be killed falling off towers, or even heart attacks from the sheer terror of being burned alive by “dragon fire”. The physical bodies aren’t “burned” and the physical construction is not damaged. Out of 600 orcs, only so many of them will be within the area of effect to risk taking damage. So what could the area of effect be? The range of the spell in OD&D is 24”. The AoE is not stated. In my opinion the AoE should start out being small, say 1” cubed. AoE would increase with each level of the caster. in the example above the MU needs to be high level in order to cast a PF of that magnitude. What do you think?
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 20, 2021 17:26:32 GMT -6
A long rested topic lives again! A few additional observations, FWIW: S&S (p12) gives the area of effect as a 3" diam. Hence the dragon and any resulting fires would all have to be within a 3" (30 yards outdoors) diameter. Orcs (and allies!) would need to be within that 30 yard bubble to be subject to the illusion; anyone outside the bubble might just sense that "something" was happening, but not know exactly what was going on. "the illusion will continue unless touched by some living creature" (M&M p24) whether striking with missiles counts as "touching" is an interesting case. I like Mike's comments above, but I wonder whether anyone at realistic missile range (and hence outside the spell's AoE) would "see" the phantasm clearly, or even at all? "illusions of nearly anything the user envisions" (M&M p24). The ref might limit it to troops/creatures which the caster has personally observed--or close derivations thereof--which the caster can convincingly "envision".
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Post by cometaryorbit on Mar 4, 2021 10:11:36 GMT -6
"illusions of nearly anything the user envisions" (M&M p24). The ref might limit it to troops/creatures which the caster has personally observed--or close derivations thereof--which the caster can convincingly "envision". Certainly the original inspiration in Burroughs' Mars suggests this - the Lotharians make a very big point of realism, for fear that their enemies will realize the illusions are fake. They create warriors identical to those from their own history, and banths (Martian "lions") identical to those that actually live around their city, rather than imaginary monsters.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Mar 5, 2021 18:50:56 GMT -6
I think you can play it both ways. Anything imaginable and expressed to the DM is permissible, which makes the spell more powerful and flexible. But also limitations by actual experience and interaction with what is depicted. I might give a bonus to the Save for entirely novel illusions, but such is the actual experiencing of the world, especially as an adventurer. Sound, voice, dress, even behavioral knowledge of an in-game element being depicted is full of clues and falsehoods. A Known NPC - meaning a unique individual - is much harder to pass off, especially if the target knows them and the caster doesn't really.
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Post by countingwizard on Mar 8, 2021 14:58:29 GMT -6
I feel that the right answer is the ammo dispels the illusion. That is because rarely is someone going to hug or reach out and touch an illusion, and I feel the intent was that any attempt to affect the illusion should dispel the illusion. I get wishy washy about whether missed attacks should also count, since it seems unfair to give illusions AC 2 like a dragon.
As far as illusion of a dragon creating a fire from it's dragonbreath, I think it should only apply if the caster states it for that turn, otherwise that part of the illusion doesn't exist (and also might be an indicator to players fighting an illusion that it is not real).
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Post by talysman on Mar 8, 2021 15:41:53 GMT -6
I feel that the right answer is the ammo dispels the illusion. That is because rarely is someone going to hug or reach out and touch an illusion, and I feel the intent was that any attempt to affect the illusion should dispel the illusion. I disagree. I don't think the intent was for physical interaction to dispel an illusion, but for sense of touch to verify that it is just an illusion, rendering it powerless. The fact that by the book the illusion can cause damage pretty much verifies that some contact is allowed, although we could certainly argue about whether all forms of damage should be allowed. This thread's reawakening inspired me to think about a possible rewrite of the spell for my own purposes. I came up with this: This adds a couple features that maybe only fit my specific needs, for example the illusion being basically a transformation of something like smoke into something else means that victims of an illusion can try to dispel it in other ways, like a gust of wind to clear the smoke. In addition, I divide the illusion's components into a primary illusion (phantom archer) and its incidental effects (arrows fired by the archer.) Victims can imagine themselves feeling pain when they take damage from an incidental effect, but some incidental effects increase the risk of disbelief: - A sling stone is believable,
- An arrow is believable until the victim tries to pull out a stuck arrow,
- Fire is even more unbelievable because it doesn't actually catch anything on fire.
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