[Star Wars] the REAL Clone Wars...

[barrataria]

All these re-visionings of Star Wars are pretty interesting and liberating and I'm enjoying seeing the grognard versions of what might have been.

After reading the first batch of comics and the novelization of SW, I'm reminded of the mystery of the "Clone Wars". They were always mentioned in passing, usually with reverence and/or respect (not unlike the way folk talked about Serenity Valley in Firefly). But there was never much explanation, just that Jedi fought in the Clone Wars.

Of course they must have fought AGAINST the clones, no? The obvious conclusion that I drew was that the Dark Siders (then called Sith but so loaded with EU baggage now) endeavored to twist the Force to create life, namely in the form of endless armies and monsters to use to dominate the galaxy. Dark Side-created clones were capable of monstrous acts, either because the cloning process did not instill any sort of values beyond obedience or because the Dark Side cloning methods involved a certain amount of random mental defect or degradation. Droids might be resented in places, but clones would be loathed and feared, with the science of cloning relegated to deep and dark dungeons in the bowels of the galaxy once the Clone Wars were over.

And what stood against this? The sclerotic Old Republic and its obsolescent navy. Lacking a standing army, small bands of its Jedi Knight protectors rallied local planetary forces in defense efforts. The more populous and advanced planets assembled militia units, but (not unlike Union forces in the Civil War) this organization was haphazard, with units recruited/conscripted from a single planet and ill-equipped with nonstandard weaponry, with these expeditionary units combined willy-nilly as their original strength dwindled. Given the diversity of races in the Republic command would be a nightmare as units from disparate planets are mashed together. But led by the Jedi heroes these ragtag units survive as the Republic begins centralizing military procurement and training and the Army and Navy swell with new conscripts and improved (and very expensive) equipment. Ever-larger dreadnaughts are an example of the new climate, enormously expensive and with gigantic crew complements required.

It's not clear from the book and film that the Republic lost the Clone Wars. Leia's message and Luke's reaction to Obi-Wan's revelation of his military background seem to suggest that the Jedi and Republic won. No one makes or suggests any explicit connection between clones and Stormtroopers.

So it seems the Republic and the Jedi survived the Clone Wars only to be destroyed by corruption and political infighting and Darth Vader, respectively. Perhaps the acceleration of military production and centralization of military command leads to the downfall of the Republic and the rise of the Emperors (yes, plural) as explained in the Journal of the Whills.

[Malcadon]

Another thing to consider is whatever or not the Stormtroopers from the first movie are clones are not. I was generally assumed that they were, but in the newer background story it was noted that the cloning process only goes so far, and when the cloning facility was destroyed, the cloning industry when with it.

I rather like the idea that the empire still uses clone troopers, and that anyone with enough money and power could have their own clone army.

[Falconer]

Core to my view of the Jedi is as not so much an organization as portrayed in the prequels (Jedi Council, chain of command, headquartered at Coruscant, works with the government), but more as knights-errant, wandering paladins who, as devotees to their religion, are the defenders of truth and justice not by any sort of legal authority (Jedi! Freeze!) but rather vigilantes who mainly operate far from the Core (i.e. on the “frontier”).

This works, by the way, with the view of Darth Vader as a bounty hunter rather than part of the Empire chain-of-command. He’s a Jedi Knight with a black hat.

As such, I don’t see the Jedi as a “side” in the Clone Wars, the way they are portrayed in the prequels, as the automatic military hierarchy of the Old Republic. Of course many of them would have gotten involved or swept up in it like a samurai in a Japanese film. But on an individual basis. Ben Kenobi served Princess Leia’s father (the king? or dare I say jeddak of Alderaan?), it is true.

Definitely there was speculation about the storm-troopers being clones long before Ep. II came out. But anything that the prequels has done needs to be re-imagined for me, because those movies were crap. So it’s back to the drawing board.

[James Maliszewski]

Sept 21, 2010 11:04:23 GMT -6 Falconer said:

As such, I don’t see the Jedi as a “side” in the Clone Wars, the way they are portrayed in the prequels, as the automatic military hierarchy of the Old Republic. Of course many of them would have gotten involved or swept up in it like a samurai in a Japanese film. But on an individual basis. Ben Kenobi served Princess Leia’s father (the king? or dare I say jeddak of Alderaan?), it is true.

That was my assumption too, more or less. I think it works better on a lot of levels than what he got, not least because it makes the Jedi even more rare and special.

Definitely there was speculation about the storm-troopers being clones long before Ep. II came out. But anything that the prequels has done needs to be re-imagined for me, because those movies were crap. So it’s back to the drawing board.

I recall owning a "poster-book" that came out sometime after the first film. It was a giant poster folded in such a way as to have "pages" on its reverse and the one I owned was all about the Empire and its organization and there was a discussion of stormtroopers being clones. After reading that, I became convinced that the Clone Wars somehow figured into the rise of the Empire, perhaps with the Empire being an invading force that had conquered the Republic rather than having arisen out of it.

[teramis]

When I was designing Star Wars material for West End Games (the first game company to hold the SW rpg license), I was told Lucas Films had told them that the storm troopers are clones, but to make sure that no game content got into that area, because they weren't ready to reveal this to the public yet.

George Lucas obviously had this as his explicit intent, regardless of how it has been glossed in various SW intellectual properties.

[kesher]

Geez, all I had were iron-on t-shirt transfers... Well, that and action figures...

[Falconer]

Yeah, it is even suggested in the original movie by Leia’s remark “Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?” Or the fact that the only “named” stormtrooper is TK-421.

[barrataria]

Sept 21, 2010 14:27:06 GMT -6 teramis said:

When I was designing Star Wars material for West End Games

Thank you for posting... and more importantly for the great game you worked on! I suppose it's not on topic for this board, but I'm thinking about these things because I'm going to run a d6 SWRPG game in a couple of weeks.

Sept 21, 2010 14:27:06 GMT -6 teramis said:

George Lucas obviously had this as his explicit intent, regardless of how it has been glossed in various SW intellectual properties.

It certainly seemed like the troopers in the original Star Wars all had the same speaking voice; apparently that wasn't an accident. I can't remember if one of the snowtroopers in ESB spoke; next time I watch that and RotJ I'll listen to see if they had the same "open the blast doors" voice from the original.

[EdOWar]

Sept 21, 2010 11:04:23 GMT -6 Falconer said:

Core to my view of the Jedi is as not so much an organization as portrayed in the prequels (Jedi Council, chain of command, headquartered at Coruscant, works with the government), but more as knights-errant, wandering paladins who, as devotees to their religion, are the defenders of truth and justice not by any sort of legal authority (Jedi! Freeze!) but rather vigilantes who mainly operate far from the Core (i.e. on the “frontier”).

This works, by the way, with the view of Darth Vader as a bounty hunter rather than part of the Empire chain-of-command. He’s a Jedi Knight with a black hat.

As such, I don’t see the Jedi as a “side” in the Clone Wars, the way they are portrayed in the prequels, as the automatic military hierarchy of the Old Republic. Of course many of them would have gotten involved or swept up in it like a samurai in a Japanese film. But on an individual basis. Ben Kenobi served Princess Leia’s father (the king? or dare I say jeddak of Alderaan?), it is true.

I like this view of the Jedi, and I think the first movie backs it up somewhat. I recall a scene where Ben (I think) is describing to Luke how Darth Vader hunted down all the Jedi. This, to me, sounds more in line with your view than the prequel version where the Jedi were betrayed and slaughtered by the clone troopers they were leading.

[barrataria]

Sept 21, 2010 15:48:51 GMT -6 EdOWar said:

Sept 21, 2010 11:04:23 GMT -6 Falconer said:

Core to my view of the Jedi is... more as knights-errant, wandering paladins who, as devotees to their religion, are the defenders of truth and justice not by any sort of legal authority (Jedi! Freeze!) but rather vigilantes who mainly operate far from the Core (i.e. on the “frontier”).

I like this view of the Jedi, and I think the first movie backs it up somewhat. I recall a scene where Ben (I think) is describing to Luke how Darth Vader hunted down all the Jedi. This, to me, sounds more in line with your view than the prequel version where the Jedi were betrayed and slaughtered by the clone troopers they were leading.

Just before Obi-Wan (General Kenobi, mind ) describes that, he goes on with his "not as clumsy as a blaster" speech, including...

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi knights were the most powerful, most respected force in the galaxy. They served as the guardians and guarantors of peace and justice in the Old Republic..."

That doesn't sound like intergalactic traffic cops to me either, but neither do they seem to be wandering gunslingers. I think that faced with an army of Dark Side-bred clones the order would have rallied to help organize the defense of planets, Old Republic aligned or not, since not much "peace and justice" would have been left to guard if the clones and their masters conquered the galaxy.

[Finarvyn]

Sept 21, 2010 15:17:25 GMT -6 barrataria said:

Sept 21, 2010 14:27:06 GMT -6 teramis said:

When I was designing Star Wars material for West End Games

Thank you for posting... and more importantly for the great game you worked on! I suppose it's not on topic for this board, but I'm thinking about these things because I'm going to run a d6 SWRPG game in a couple of weeks.

Oh, since this section of the forum is "science fiction", I don't see why discussion of the WEG Star Wars game is a problem.

Heck, we've got enough Star Wars threads that I almost need to make a section just for Star Wars.

[geoffrey]

I never thought that "Clone Wars" referred to clones. I didn't have an explicit idea in mind, but biological clones always seemed more Star Trek-ish than Star Wars-ish to me. Some alternate possibilities off the top of my head:

1. In the real world, "Clone" is a relatively rare last name. Thus the name of the system central to the Clone Wars could have been the Clone System. Or a central figure in the Clone Wars could have been named Clone.

2. Note the plural of "Clone Wars". They could have been a series of wars that had so many parallels that these wars were thought of as clones of one another.

3. The Clone Wars could have been intergalactic conflicts fought amongst the respective adherents of OSRIC, LL, S&W, etc. In this case, we know that the adherents of Castles & Crusades won, because of old Ben's words to Luke: "He thought you might follow old Obi-wan on some d**n fool idealistic crusade like your father did."

[teramis]

barrataria said:

Thank you for posting... and more importantly for the great game you worked on! I suppose it's not on topic for this board, but I'm thinking about these things because I'm going to run a d6 SWRPG game in a couple of weeks.

Thank you. I think that was a pretty great game system. I was just one little cog in the machine, but am glad I had a chance to be part of it.

-Teramis

[blackbarn]

Like geoffrey, I never linked "Clone Wars" with the concept of biological clones. I understood what a clone was, but never seriously made that connection in my mind until I read people speculating about the nature of the Clone Wars in a Starlog magazine or something of that nature, after the trilogy was already over. Interesting, and I think it may have something to do with the concept of cloning not seeming "Star Warsy" enough somehow.

Also, I really like Falconer's ideas on the Jedi and Darth Vader. Much better than the galactic police force of the Republic. I see no reason to connect Kenobi's service to Leia's father with the idea of ALL Jedi being in the Clone Wars, either. I can imagine him being swept up in those events, and then years later he is remembered (perhaps even because a Jedi being a General was unusual and stood out.)

[Deleted]

If you look at the credits for Star Wars, you'll see that there were at least four different actors doing the voices for the stormtroopers. I'm of the opinion that Stormtroopers weren't meant to be clones originally.

Also, Motti refers to the Jedi as an "ancient religion". He also appears to be completely clueless as to a Jedi's real power. Neither or these match the all-powerful Jedi order shown in the prequels. So, I agree with the other posters that the Jedi weren't a organized military force. Possibly not even organized at all.

[havard]

Wow,
what a cool thread! I'd love to play in a game like this. I like the Red Letter Media suggestion that the Clones should be an army secretly bred by Palpatine washing in over the Old Republic, so that they in turn beging recruiting troopers and becoming more militarized paving way for the Empire to be formed.

I could see the Jedi as an organized religious Order, but probably with their temples in remote places like Buddhist Monks in a mythological version of China. The Old Republic Senate would traditionally be respectful towards the Jedi who would hold a special status in that society, but neither would be the tool of the other.

Most importantly, armies of Jedi or Sith is always a bad idea. I would like to preserve some sense of mystery and awe to the Jedi, even back in that age when they were more commonplace.

-Havard

[Deleted]

I remember long ago that the Clones of the clone wars refer to Jedi being cloned.

I'll have to reread the movie novel, but I don't think there was anywhere in the first movies that talks about the Jedi having any official status in the Republic. Far cry from the prequels where every child ever born is tested for midicolorians.

There's also something that gets glossed over. In the original movie, the genetic nature of the force isn't something that's established. Han Solo can't use the force because he doesn't believe in the force. That faith aspect is something that makes the force more of a religion than the inborn psykic power it turned into.

[barrataria]

Dredging this up because I'm thinking about it again...

Mar 11, 2012 11:47:54 GMT -6 havard said:

Wow,
what a cool thread! I'd love to play in a game like this. I like the Red Letter Media suggestion that the Clones should be an army secretly bred by Palpatine washing in over the Old Republic, so that they in turn beging recruiting troopers and becoming more militarized paving way for the Empire to be formed.

I had forgotten he suggested that, I need to re-watch those reviews. I think the assumption in the WEG books was also that the clones were fighting the Jedi... one of those things we just assumed at the time I think.

Anyway, I'm ret-conning the prequel era for purposes of a timeline for my campaign, and I've gotten to thinking about these wars again. I'm thinking that the Jedi and the local militia fought against the clones/cloned monsters AND the droid armies in the prequels.

This is partially as an excuse to include droid soldier minis in my games but also as a backdrop to anti-droid sentiment shown in the Original Trilogy.

Oh, and running with another Red Letter Media criticism, I'd introduce Christopher Plummer as a heavy in the first film, as Maul's master. It seems that the Sith are really a secret cabal of evildoers within the ranks of the Jedi, and he (Tyrannus) makes a pact with Senator Palpatine to buy the clones, build the droids, and scare up support for militarization of the Republic/Empire as a prelude to eliminate the Jedi, ancient enemies of the Dark Knights.

Tyrannus eventually clones what's left of his apprentice Maul, but the cloning fails and he has to heavily cyborg the result. The result is General Grievous, perfectly engineered to command clone and droid armies.

The Emperor is strong with the force, but does not use a lightsaber (which he sneeringly calls a "Jedi weapon" in ROTJ) and was never a Jedi (nor a Dark Knight of the Sith cabal). He uses his mind control in strategic places in the Senate and elsewhere to get his overwhelming power. When Anakin comes along, part of his fall to the dark side is making a pact with Palpatine, gaffing Tyrannus to take over the Sith, which is how he ends up as Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith, hunting down Jedi and, later, "rebel scum".