Who rolls?

[murquhart72]

After reading the original rules for the umpteenth time, it occurs to me that all the dice rolling pretty much falls to the Referee. The players aren't actually said to roll anything themselves.
I brought this to the attention of my GF (and only current player) and she loved the idea. Being able to just play the role and make decisions while letting the Ref worry about all the mechanical aspects is liberating to her and as she puts it: "Allows you to fudge the rolls so I get more pretties without my knowing."
Where do you all stand on this?

[Deleted]

It depends, I suppose, on exactly which rolls you're speaking of. I think most players feel rolling the dice themselves give them a sense of control over the destiny of their player-characters.

[kesher]

I don't think any of my players would like to run it that way, but with the right group it could be pretty cool. When I first realized that's what the rules seemed to suggest, I thought it was weird, but that was really due to my habits of play.

[murquhart72]

That's what I mean, habits dictate one view; But like I say, some folks like the random stuff being all up to the Ref. It's not like rolling dice gives them any real control anyway. Technically, it doesn't matter who rolls, so long as the results are random.
I think it'd be quite liberating to one's imagination to take numbers out of the equation completely (as a player), thus allowing for more freedom of visualization and more "fudge" control to the Referee.
Oh, and by rolls, I mean ALL rolls. The player's never need know what the dice look like

[kesher]

Now that I think about it, I played in a short-lived Call of Cthulhu campaign that worked that way. In fact, we didn't even know our stats... It was fun---we certainly focused more on playing roles.

[Falconer]

I appreciate the thinking here, and I can see the referee MAYBE doing all damage rolls, but not to-hit rolls, saving throws, ability scores, hit dice, or pretty much anything else. The reason is, with a failed roll the player can only say “Aw, crap,” if the player rolled it himself, but if the referee rolled it, it’s more like “d**n you, ref!”

Technically, it’s true that the die result is random and under no-one’s control, but part of the magic of the game is pretending that a die result is due to your prayers to Lady Luck, the will of the Great God Gygax, a curse of a bad die, the blessing of a lucky die, the technique of the roll, etc.

For what it’s worth, in my games the player NEVER knows his target number for to-hit rolls or saving throws. And the referee NEVER fudges!

[Deleted]

I agree! It can be a lot of fun and very freeing to just state one's actions and let the referee tell you what happens. Not everyone, unfortunately, feels that way.

[jjarvis]

It depends. The ref should certainly roll trap/secret door searches and other rolls the players wouldn't be sure of the results.

If you roll a 1 when searching for traps and find no trap, there's no trap. When the dm rolls and tells you find no trap...there might still be a trap.

A DM doing the secret door search can also mislead players of not very bright or wise PCs to think something is there when it isn't (this can backfire however sometimes players spend an awful lot of time dealing with a ordinary door or 10' of unremarkable wall)

Players just love making attack and damage rolls. With a fair sized party with a lot of henchmen it speeds up play having other players rolling the dice.
I once played not telling the players the damage rolls but instead telling them relative scores agaisnt foes and agaisnt themselves. I didn't tell players their characters current hp scores until after the fight ended. The players hated it. I thought it was much more fun saying "you land a solid blow", "you send the kobold tumbling away", "you suffer but a scratch", "that blow really knocked you for a loop" and so on but as I mentioned, the players hated it.

Part of the reason is certainly the illusion of control and the fact the players are information starved. Everything they know about the game comes out of the DM's mouth or is written on their character sheets.

[bestialwarlust]

In my game most rolls, hits, saving throws, etc.... are done by players. But I always roll their damage rolls. I'd done it that way for years assuming that's how it was done. It wasn't until years later that I learned that most groups let players roll damage.

[xerxez]

It has always been my desire to DM a game where the players roll no dice and there is ZERO discussion of mechanics--it is all role playing, and narrative.

I think this would be a sweet game. I don't think my current crop of players would go for it, though. They feel they are doing something and identify more with their character when they are rolling dice for their actions.

I may try to get them to try a game the other way once.

The way I do it now is I let all players roll their damage and hit rolls and saving throws. It kind of builds tension to let them roll. If its a secret saving throw due to the character not knowing what it is they are saving against then I make the roll.

I also let them roll percentage chances for things the character would know if they succeeded or not, but not things like checking for secret doors or listening for noises.

One thing I have begun doing is to make all my npc, trap, and monster hit rolls and damage openly to all. I want a sense in my games that the dice are the Fates. I don't want players to think I am fudging or pulling punches or going by whim.

Was unaware of that OD&D rule since I haven't been able to play White Box OD&D yet since I am waiting to buy the actual boxed set, which I will. I have been using Holmes and 1st Edition AD&D.

[Deleted]

Jul 15, 2011 14:26:03 GMT -6 xerxez said:

Was unaware of that OD&D rule since I haven't been able to play White Box OD&D ...

My knowledge of OD&D is not encyclopedic, but I believe the rules refers only to the referee rolling the dice during character generation:

M&M, p. 10: Prior to the character selection by players it is necessary for the referee to roll three six-sided dice in order to rate each as to various abilities, and thus aid them in selecting a role.

I am asking just to help the scope of my knowledge of the rules, btw, not to pull anyone's chain.

Edited to actually ask the question: Is there another reference somewhere in the TLBBs?

[talysman]

There's a couple statements that imply the GM does most or all of the rolling, without explicitly saying so. In the equipment list, it's suggested that you purchase 1 pair of each of the polydice, with no comment about this being per player; on the other hand, the list recommends 4 to 20 pairs of six-sided dice, which *could* include d6s for each each of the players. (Aside: I'm not sure why it specifies *pairs* of six-siders...) In contrast, the list recommends one 3-ring notebook for the referee and for each player.

Just below the equipment list is a description of the work a referee must do, which mentions that "This operation will be more fully described in the third volume of these rules." That's a clear implication that any dice rolls in U&WA are GM-only rolls, including the rolls to hear noises, open stuck doors, or sense secret doors. We can probably also assume that rolls in Monsters & Treasure are meant for the GM as well, except where noted otherwise. One possible exception I can think of is subduing dragons; the damage rolls are described neutrally, without indicating who rolls, but the percentile roll to determine if the dragon is subdued is specified as a referee roll.

Also, in the ability score section you note, it says that the player also "obtains a similar roll of three dice to determine the number of Gold Pieces (Dice score x 10)". So, apparently, you don't roll your own starting gold, either. Interestingly, the sample character lists experience (which is "nil", but not level or hit points. I imagine hit points are meant to be known to the player, but since there seems to be an implication that they were originally re-rolled every time the character advanced a level, hit points might have been recorded on a different sheet. The actual description of rolling hit dice to determine hit points is vague about who does the rolling:
"This indicates the number of dice which are rolled in order to determine how many hit points a character can take... Thus a Super Hero gets 8 dice + 2; they are rolled and score 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6/totals 26 + 2 = 28, 28 being the number of points of damage the character could sustain before death." (M&M p. 18.) Similarly, there's no indication of who rolls the d20 for attacks or saves in the alternative combat system. I believe these elements are deliberately vague to allow leeway, especially since a ref teaching a new batch of players might want to handle all rolls at first, allowing players to take over their own attacks, damage, and saves when they are comfortable doing so.

Reaction and Loyalty, although described in M&M, are explicitly stated to be referee rolls. Everything else, as already mentioned, are in referee books.

[Deleted]

Jul 15, 2011 21:26:27 GMT -6 talysman said:

... but since there seems to be an implication that they were originally re-rolled every time the character advanced a level, hit points might have been recorded on a different sheet.

Though he was not always consistent in his replies, the one time I can recall him being asked about that online he stated that communicating that idea was not his intention. I've been compiling a list of his Q&Q WRT to OD&D and I'll see if I've added that one to the file or not.

As for the rest of your reply ... WOW! Thank you for the information. You have impressive recall abilities.

[giantbat]

Jul 14, 2011 19:46:17 GMT -6 kesher said:

I don't think any of my players would like to run it that way, but with the right group it could be pretty cool.

I'd be fine with it.

[jimlotfp]

Jul 14, 2011 16:32:12 GMT -6 murquhart72 said:

"Allows you to fudge the rolls so I get more pretties without my knowing."

What a naive soul assuming any fudging of rolls would be in the player's favor.

[Finarvyn]

I actually have considered going the other way -- having the players roll both their dice and those for the bad guys. It keeps them busy. I have a couple of younger players who get bored when they aren't active and getting to roll twice as many dice could be fun for them.

Of course, I'm thinking certain situations only. Combat attacks, damage, maybe saving throws. Some things might be better hidden.

[murquhart72]

Aug 4, 2011 0:46:03 GMT -6 jimlotfp said:

Jul 14, 2011 16:32:12 GMT -6 murquhart72 said:

"Allows you to fudge the rolls so I get more pretties without my knowing."

What a naive soul assuming any fudging of rolls would be in the player's favor.

Actually, she's my GF and I knowingly play favorites
But it doesn't matter, she's indicated before that she doesn't care what happens as long as she lives long enough to decorate her house with all the gems and jewels I shower her with. Shopping and home decor may not be everyone's idea of excitement, but who am I to deny someone's fantasy when playing a 'fantasy' RPG ;D