Saving Throw Dice

[aldarron]

Saving Throws are rolled on a d20. That's what Holmes says to do, and that's what's in AD&D.

As I look through theMen & Magic info on Saving Throws I see no mention of what dice to use.

Usually unspecified dice mean d6. I happen to know that in Arneson's version of the tables it was supposed to be a roll of 3d6.

I haven't looked closely at the mathmatical effects, but figured some savvier mathmeticians than me might weigh in on the pros and cons of using 3d6 vs d20 for saving throws.

[Deleted]

The fact that the lowest save in the M&M table is a 3 (Level 16+ Magic-User vs. Staves and Spells, Level 13+ Cleric vs. Death Ray or Poison) could be evidence for 3d6 being originally intended, as 3 is the lowest roll possible using three dice, whereas a 1 or 2 would still be meaningful with 1d20.

Not having the Holmes or first AD&D editions, I am unable to confirm whether or not he also stops at 3 despite using 1d20, although in revised 2e a 2 appears only once in saving throw tables, for priests level 19+ against death magic/poison/paralysis.

At any rate, using 3d6 makes saving at early levels quite a bit more difficult than 1d20, particularly for the more difficult save types for a given class. For example, a Fighting-Man has less than a 5% base save chance against spells from levels 1-3, but that would jump to 25% using 1d20.

For saves below 11, however, a player would prefer rolling 3d6. 3d6 in effect offers a more substantial power curve as far as saves go (low-level characters are particularly weak, high-level characters approach or achieve theoretical "immunity" in their favorable save type), whereas 1d20 offers a more consistent experience, giving a bigger break to lower-level characters while still presenting a chance for higher levels ones to feel threatened.

AnyDice offers a fast way to get dice distributions with a nice chart.

Here are probability tables (in percentages) for succeeding on the saves based on the Saving Throw Matrix in M&M. Green values indicate the table's roll type (3d6 or 1d20) offers a more favorable probability for the player for a particular save, and red the opposite:

FIGHTING-MEN (using 3d6)

LEVEL	DEATH or POIS	WAND, POLY, PAR	STONE	DRAGON BRTH	STAVES & SPELLS
1-3	37.50	25.93	16.20	9.26	4.63
4-6	62.50	50.00	37.50	25.93	16.20
7-9	83.80	74.07	62.50	62.50	37.50
10-12	95.37	90.74	83.80	83.80	62.50
13+	99.54	98.15	98.15	98.15	83.80

FIGHTING-MEN (using 1d20)

LEVEL	DEATH or POIS	WAND, POLY, PAR	STONE	DRAGON BRTH	STAVES & SPELLS
1-3	45.00	40.00	35.00	30.00	25.00
4-6	55.00	50.00	45.00	40.00	35.00
7-9	65.00	60.00	55.00	55.00	45.00
10-12	75.00	70.00	65.00	65.00	55.00
13+	85.00	80.00	80.00	80.00	65.00

CLERICS (using 3d6)

LEVEL	DEATH or POIS	WAND, POLY, PAR	STONE	DRAGON BRTH	STAVES & SPELLS
1-4	50.00	37.50	16.20	4.63	9.26
5-8	74.07	62.50	37.50	16.20	37.50
9-12	95.37	90.74	74.07	50.00	74.07
13+	100.00	98.15	90.74	83.80	90.74

CLERICS (using 1d20)

LEVEL	DEATH or POIS	WAND, POLY, PAR	STONE	DRAGON BRTH	STAVES & SPELLS
1-4	50.00	45.00	35.00	25.00	30.00
5-8	60.00	55.00	45.00	35.00	45.00
9-12	75.00	70.00	60.00	50.00	60.00
13+	90.00	80.00	70.00	65.00	70.00

MAGIC-USERS (using 3d6)

LEVEL	DEATH or POIS	WAND, POLY, PAR	STONE	DRAGON BRTH	STAVES & SPELLS
1-5	25.93	16.20	25.93	4.63	9.26
6-10	50.00	37.50	50.00	16.20	37.50
11-15	83.80	74.07	83.80	50.00	83.80
16+	98.15	95.37	98.15	83.80	100.00

MAGIC-USERS (using 1d20)

LEVEL	DEATH or POIS	WAND, POLY, PAR	STONE	DRAGON BRTH	STAVES & SPELLS
1-5	40.00	35.00	40.00	25.00	30.00
6-10	50.00	45.00	50.00	35.00	45.00
11-15	65.00	60.00	65.00	50.00	65.00
16+	80.00	75.00	80.00	65.00	90.00

[Morandir]

Huh. Having seen someone mention recently elsewhere on these boards the 3d6 save, I thought about switching over to it. But I think you just convinced me against it, much to the good fortune of my players!

[cooper]

Since the loss of a mid to high level PC stings more than a low level one, I would think using a 3d6 would be much more preferable. After all, chances are the poisoned daggers damage alone will kill the low level char. while at high levels PC will be encountering much more save or die attacks and would therefore appreciate the better % on a character they spent a lot of time getting to 7th+! (super heroic). I mean medusa # appearing is 1-4...that's a lot of saving throws in one battle, dragons 1-6 etc...

It also makes me think about ability score adjustments. Say you have a 13 dex and this gives a +1 bonus to dodging saving throws which is rolled on a 3d6 just like ability scores are which perhaps was what inspired them to tie ability score adjustments to saving throws (think of the cryptic wisdom adjustment found on the official character sheet).

[Stormcrow]

The Feeblemind spell "has a 20% better chance of success, i.e. lowers the magic-user's saving throw against magic by 4..."

That's a d20.

[cooper]

Good catch, and the saving throw matrix appears in the same chapter as the alternative d20 combat section. In fact it's listed as matrix III of the alternative combat system. However. So for feeblemind 3 points is exactly 20% on the 3d6.

Of course there's no reason you couldn't do it on a 3d6 or that the option wasn't implied, after all the worst save is a 17 which was changes to a 19 in ad&d and the lowest is a 3. So, I'm fairly certain that the chart was created with the knowledge that some--if not most people would not be playing the game with d20 so was built to be used for both. Just as combat could be run using any of the 4 melee systems.

[aldarron]

Jun 12, 2011 12:50:50 GMT -6 @colonelgraff said:

The fact that the lowest save in the M&M table is a 3 (Level 16+ Magic-User vs. Staves and Spells, Level 13+ Cleric vs. Death Ray or Poison) could be evidence for 3d6 being originally intended, as 3 is the lowest roll possible using three dice, whereas a 1 or 2 would still be meaningful with 1d20.

Not having the Holmes or first AD&D editions, I am unable to confirm whether or not he also stops at 3 despite using 1d20, although in revised 2e a 2 appears only once in saving throw tables, for priests level 19+ against death magic/poison/paralysis.

At any rate, using 3d6 makes saving at early levels quite a bit more difficult than 1d20, particularly for the more difficult save types for a given class. For example, a Fighting-Man has less than a 5% base save chance against spells from levels 1-3, but that would jump to 25% using 1d20.

For saves below 11, however, a player would prefer rolling 3d6. 3d6 in effect offers a more substantial power curve as far as saves go (low-level characters are particularly weak, high-level characters approach or achieve theoretical "immunity" in their favorable save type), whereas 1d20 offers a more consistent experience, giving a bigger break to lower-level characters while still presenting a chance for higher levels ones to feel threatened.

AnyDice offers a fast way to get dice distributions with a nice chart.

Here are probability tables (in percentages) for succeeding on the saves based on the Saving Throw Matrix in M&M. Green values indicate the table's roll type (3d6 or 1d20) offers a more favorable probability for the player for a particular save, and red the opposite:
.....

Exalt Colonel! That sir is excellent work.

[aldarron]

Jun 12, 2011 13:56:49 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

The Feeblemind spell "has a 20% better chance of success, i.e. lowers the magic-user's saving throw against magic by 4..."

That's a d20.

Yeah, nice one Stormcrow.