Interesting parallels...

[kesher]

Since apparently I have nothing else to do, I've been browsing Wargames Research Group site (creators of De Bellis Antiquitatis and Hordes of the Things, among others), and found on their History page a number of free downloads of their older, out-of-print games.

Interestingly, the 4th edition of the War Game Rules, (Warning! Frame navigation! click on History and scroll down for the "fourth edition Ancients" link) published in 1973 includes, grudgingly, "Suggested adaptations for Sword & Sorcery fanatics."

These adaptions [sic] are based mainly on these hurriedly put together for a "fun" demonstration at the 1972 A.G.M. of the Society of Ancients, plus suggestions make in the columns of Slingshot, notably by D.J. Walker-Smith, D. Macfarlane, and Russell King.

They are here reprinted by popular request i.e. to stop people writing to us about them! They are hidden at the back like this so that sane, sensible wargamers can avoid continuous mental shocks while thumbing through the pages.

Fist of all, that's pretty ironic for the group that would go on to design Hordes of the Things (which is also freely available on the site!). But it's the timing I find most interesting.

I have no idea if this was inspired by Chainmail; certainly it wasn't by D&D, which wasn't even published yet.

Any insights?

[Deleted]

I printed a copy of the 2nd Edition version and wondered too if it was inspired by Chainmail.

For those interested it contains rules for:

Saints, Warrior Saints, Moslem Saints, Heroes, Elves, Dragons, Trolls, Giants, Ents, Goblins and Orcs, Demons, Tame Crows, Basilisks, Dwarves, and Magicians with an interesting spell system.

[howandwhy99]

What's the spell system like and how does is balance into the game?

No insights here, but word is fantasy wargaming was on the rise in a big way after decades of historical wargames being the default. The attitude, I think, has to do with the conception of what wargames were and what the designers were doing at the time. It was more about enabling a kind of "be the army general in your favorite battle" game, in the sense that games were strategic enterprises (i.e. pattern recognition acts).

[Deleted]

I can't comment on game balance, because I'm not a wargamer, but here's the relevant section:

[kesher]

austrovadicus, that was nice listing out the fantasy elements---I should've thought of that!

On a related note, how did you get that image from the rules? I know how to take a snapshot of text from Reader, but I couldn't figure out how to save it as an image file...

[Deleted]

Open up Microsoft Paint in Accessories (assuming you're using Windows), paste in the image, "save as" jpeg or whatever you prefer.

[thorswulf]

Hmmm, I'm not sure if chainmail inspired this or not. Gygax was a member of an International wargamers group, and Tony Bath's Hyborian game might have been an influence via some publication of Jack Scruby as well. Long story short, wargamers were a small niche of hobbyists at the time, and many ides could have spread around by word of periodocal or mouth.

[coffee]

Speaking of periodicals, The Courier was a going concern in those days.

Here's more: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Courier_%28magazine%29

It's entirely possible that there was some cross-pollination.


But as far as the International Federation of Wargamers, I think that's just what they called it. I don't know of any foreign members (but my knowledge on this is hardly exhaustive...)

[DungeonDevil]

WOW. Really fascinating!
I've only got a copy of WRG's 6th edition "Ancients" (3000 BC to 1485 AD), and the fantasy section at the end of those is different than what is mentioned here. Blast! I can't get the links to work.

From 6th ed:

FANTASY ADAPTATIONS

These rules can also be used for fantasy games set in fictional worlds. Most of the troops envisaged by fantasy
authors are direct equivalents of ancient or medieval warriors, even when not human, and others require only
minimal rule alterations. The following adaptations owe much to Jean-Louis Fiasson. We hope when time permits
to produce a separate extended version with more notes on equivalents, army lists for the forces of E.R.B. Mars,
Middle Earth, Kregen, Novaria, Gor, Dalarna and similar places, and a more detailed magical system.
Elves, dwarfs, goblins, orks, hobbits and other two-armed humanoids. As humans, Hobbits are always light
troops. Elf, dwarf and ork infantry are normally LMI or LHI. Elvish cavalry are normally HC or EHK.
Mounted dwarfs are mounted infantry.
Humanoid beings with extra grasping limbs. Pay for a double-armed. Can fight with 3 hands simultaneously, for
example one holding shield, others weapons.
Trolls and Ents. Count as SHI with two-handed concussive weapons, except base as LI.
Giants. As elephants, except do not scare horses and can throw rocks like five man crew stone-throwing engine to
dart ranges.
Centaurs and riders of unicorns, zorcas, totrixes, voves, thoats and wargs. As cavalry. Warg, unicorn and zorca
cavalry are LC, totrix MC or HC, vove and thoat EHC.
Lizard mounts. If horse size, count as camels except that their movement is unpenalised in scrub instead of soft
sand. If larger, count as elephants.
Fighting animal without rider. If horse-sized, as angry bears. If larger, as elephant.
Flying men or horse-sized animals. Count as LI, LC or fighting animal as appropriate, except cost 10 points
extra, intelligent beings worth 5 scouting points, aerial evade of D+120 paces, aerial charge or normal move of
300 paces, and aerial formation similar to cantabrian called "circus". Count 3 height factors for shooting, can't
drop rocks.
Flying carpets and airboats. Cost 30 points plus 5 points per passenger place in addition to driver. 5 scouting points
per vehicle. Move as other flyers. Crew fight as if on shipboard, can drop rocks. Vulnerability as ships.
Dragons, Count as elephant+flying ability+personal fire syphon. Riders optional.
Parrying weapons. A dagger used to parry counts as a shield except against shooting.
Radium rifles. Count as crossbow, which is roughly the effect they have in E.R.B. despite tell tale fed to John
Carter on arrival and never corrected. Probably slow-recharge laser.
Magician or magical powers for general or unit commander. Costs 100 points. Can add or deduct score of 1-6 die
from reaction of friendly or enemy body that is within 150 paces and not within 100 paces of unfriendly saint or
relic.
Heroic attributes for general or unit commander. Costs 50 points. Fights as if three figures. Always adds 2 to
reaction of body with or influenced as general.
Ghosts and phantasms. As irregular "D" LI or LC with side arm only, but have same effect for reaction and
disorder as elephants.

[snorri]

May 12, 2011 2:56:05 GMT -6 DungeonDevil said:

From 6th ed:

The following adaptations owe much to Jean-Louis Fiasson. We hope when time permits
to produce a separate extended version with more notes on equivalents, army lists for the forces of E.R.B. Mars,
Middle Earth, Kregen, Novaria, Gor, Dalarna and similar places, and a more detailed magical system.
Elves, dwarfs, goblins, orks, hobbits and other two-armed humanoids.

I was surprised to see a french--looking name here - even if its maybe not - and had a look. Jean-Louis Fiasson is quoted in AD&D DMG credits. I foudn his name as well in the Slingshot index (www.soa.org.uk/downloads/files/slingshot%20index%201965-2007.pdf), so he seems to have been an active wargamer. His he teh same guy than the mycologist under the same name ?

[DungeonDevil]

Neat! I didn't catch that connection with the DMG. Good eye!

[aldarron]

I'd bet Quebecois.

[kesher]

@austrovadicus: Aha! DUH. Thanks!

DungeonDevil: I just tried all the links in this thread, and they worked for me. The WRG site is:

www.wrg.me.uk/WRG/wrgindex.html

That's fascinating with the 6th ed. rules. Those definitely look like they're moving towards HotT.

snorri: Wow! That was an amazing catch! And it's only a bonus if he's a mycologist...maybe he invented shriekers?