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Post by calithena on Apr 18, 2011 6:23:55 GMT -6
This is probably the most D&D Bible story. Moses is born noble and then finds out he's really a demi-Egyptian and flees the land. He goes out into the wilderness, loots lots of dungeons, levels up, and returns to take on Pharoah when he reaches Patriarch level. Part Water has never been used to such great effect! (You know Moses had a good player too, thinking to cancel the spell when the Egyptians were still in the tunnel.) Sticks to Snakes, Flame Strike, probably Gate for the Tenth Plague - let's face it, Moses is as old school as it gets.
People always say, well, there are Conan and Aragorn and Red Sonja and Joan of Arc for the fighter archetypes, and Gandalf and Merlin and Morgana and Galadriel for the M-Us, but the Cleric is just something spliced on that doesn't really fit the literature. Or they mention good old Bishop Odo.
But the fact is, there is an archetype for the D&D Cleric, and he's right there in the Old Testament - Moses. That's even where they got half the original spell list.
Happy Passover!
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Post by calithena on Apr 18, 2011 6:27:23 GMT -6
For what it's worth, most of the rest of the spell list comes from what Jesus does in the New Testament. The original game didn't have 'holy symbols' but 'crosses'.
There was a certain lore and literature that might have been more present to the minds of people in Gary's generation than ours, I guess is what I'm suggesting, judging by certain discussions of the Cleric I read here and there...
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Post by aldarron on Apr 18, 2011 7:54:15 GMT -6
Yep. No doubt. In fact, Moses "magic" is also Egyptian priestly magic duplicated by the Egyptian high priests up to a point(plague of frogs I think), but Moses is always "higher level".
Its pretty clear to me that Elijah also fed into the conception of the Clerics powers. Of course, both Gary and Dave knew better than to ever say that cleric spells were inspired by Biblical prophets.
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mythmere
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 293
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Post by mythmere on Apr 18, 2011 8:52:52 GMT -6
Passover tonight! Meh, which means cooking and cleaning throughout the day..... I'm not a big fan of holidays.
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Post by coffee on Apr 18, 2011 13:20:55 GMT -6
The original game didn't have 'holy symbols' but 'crosses'. Yeah, but that was because they had vampires, and wanted to be able to ward them off. And anyone could do it, not just clerics. (One of the big inspirations for D&D was the Hammer horror films...) But that's off the mark for this thread. Happy Passover to all those who celebrate it.
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Post by kesher on Apr 18, 2011 14:04:43 GMT -6
That looting dungeons thing must be from the Zohar, but yeah, go Moses! There are a couple of prophets, too, (I'm forgetting who...) that raise the dead. I'm still harboring the desire, using Green Ronin's old Testament d20 supplement as a guide, to role-play the history of the Jews from the expulsion from Eden up to the coming of the Romans... And c'mon, Matt---what's better than syrupy wine, chalky brownies, and gefilte fish? Happy Passover, members of the Tribe!
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 18, 2011 17:15:15 GMT -6
Yep, most of the cleric spells in the 1974 rules come from the Bible (and with a few from the Lives of the Saints). 1974 D&D cleric: one-third Biblical hero, one-third crusader-knight, one-third Hammer horror film undead-hunter.
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Post by thorswulf on Apr 18, 2011 17:27:43 GMT -6
I think maybe the Irish saints were an inspiration as well. Patrick, Columba, and the real Cuthbert certainly traveled all over strange lands, some fought monsters (Nessie), and perfomed miracles (Spells if you will). There are many inspirations if you know where to look!
Happy Passover!
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Post by stevemitchell on Apr 18, 2011 18:53:01 GMT -6
I've given some loose thought to running an "Exorcists of Judea" campaign. Jesus would send out the Apostles on missions to combat demonic infestations throughout the land. (There seemed to be a lot of casting out of devils going on at the time.) Most of the Apostles would be Clerics, although Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot might be Fighters. And Simon Magus would be lurking off stage, a true Magic-user.
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mythmere
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 293
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Post by mythmere on Apr 18, 2011 19:03:38 GMT -6
And c'mon, Matt---what's better than syrupy wine, chalky brownies, and gefilte fish? Dark chocolate and lots of wine! (8PM: I am replete)
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Post by Mr. Darke on May 7, 2011 18:43:12 GMT -6
Wow, this thread has me rethinking the cleric class! I have been meaning to do some Old Testament reading and this may be just the excuse. (Errr...is reading the Bible for D&D ideas a bad thing?)
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on May 7, 2011 19:57:03 GMT -6
Wow, this thread has me rethinking the cleric class! I have been meaning to do some Old Testament reading and this may be just the excuse. (Errr...is reading the Bible for D&D ideas a bad thing?) I hope not.
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Post by kesher on May 7, 2011 20:28:03 GMT -6
Wow, this thread has me rethinking the cleric class! I have been meaning to do some Old Testament reading and this may be just the excuse. (Errr...is reading the Bible for D&D ideas a bad thing?) I'd call it "Ironic Justice."
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Post by Finarvyn on May 8, 2011 4:59:37 GMT -6
Wow, this thread has me rethinking the cleric class! I have been meaning to do some Old Testament reading and this may be just the excuse. (Errr...is reading the Bible for D&D ideas a bad thing?) No. I lived through the 1980's where some folks were saying "D&D is Satan" and hope that we never see that kind of faith-gaming conflicts again. Others like Preacher John can answer this better than I, but I cannot see anything in the Bible that would suggest that gaming is bad and I cannot see anything in gaming that would suggest that the Bible is bad. I don't want to focus too much on religion on these boards, but I can't see any way that reading a book which is designed to strengthen faith and make one a better person can be a bad thing, even if one of the goals is to look for gaming inspiration. I'd say "go for it!"
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Post by thorswulf on May 8, 2011 15:00:05 GMT -6
I'm a Christian, and for what it is worth, if we were created with the wonderous gift of imagination, where's the harm in using it? Consider all the magnificent art inspired by religion, and the desire to understand the workings of of our world through the application of imagination. Sounds to me like we were menat to use it and appreciate it wrom whence it came!
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Post by Mr. Darke on May 9, 2011 10:39:06 GMT -6
I just find it ironic that we can find inspiration from everywhere. I also am a Christian but, never did buy into the panic of the 80's. However, I still do need to start studying the OT a bit more.
Anyway, I always felt many things in the Old Testament are not only great faith illustrations but are also on par with some of the older literature we have all read. Judges is also a great book for finding ideas for adventures and is also a good way to look at the cleric class.
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Post by calithena on May 9, 2011 13:05:35 GMT -6
In all seriousness, the Book of Judges would be an excellent basis for a fantasy campaign.
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Post by geoffrey on May 9, 2011 14:21:32 GMT -6
I've long toyed with using the Book of Mormon for a campaign setting. The uncertainty of its correlation with real-world geography (i. e., was it set in the Americas as a whole, or in the Great Lakes region, or in Mesoamerica, or Baja California, or in Thailand, or in a land now sunk beneath the waves, or none of these?) makes it more a malleable setting than the more defined Biblical setting. Plus, the Book of Mormon's Christians living before Jesus was born is a cool answer to "How can my OD&D clerics have crosses if I don't want to set my campaign sometime in the last two thousand years?"
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Post by snorri on May 9, 2011 17:07:54 GMT -6
Have an exalt fot the book of Mormon setting, Geoffrey!
I'm a Marxist, but definitely, Bible is a better source of inspiration for D&D than Marx's Capital. Clerics fits perfectly the mood for Old Temple's priest or even prophets, and Table of the Law vs idols, fits well Law vs. Chaos axis.
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Post by talysman on May 9, 2011 17:24:09 GMT -6
I'm a Marxist, but definitely, Bible is a better source of inspiration for D&D than Marx's Capital. Maybe Marx's Capital would be a bad pick, but could you imagine "The Glorious Democratic Worker's Paradise Adventure Game", with clerics replaced Revolutionaries who have a Turn Capitalist ability based on oratory?
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Post by snorri on May 9, 2011 17:31:22 GMT -6
I'm a Marxist, but definitely, Bible is a better source of inspiration for D&D than Marx's Capital. Maybe Marx's Capital would be a bad pick, but could you imagine "The Glorious Democratic Worker's Paradise Adventure Game", with clerics replaced Revolutionaries who have a Turn Capitalist ability based on oratory? Marx often uses the metaphor of Vampires for capitalists, so it could be done. More seriously,, I have among my various todo projects a D&D world based on Friediech Engels' origins of property, family and state, which fits more the mood (and is mainly a discussion about the american ethologist Morgan).
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Post by thorswulf on May 9, 2011 19:45:38 GMT -6
Tere were giants in the earth in those days... the witch of Endor... hmmm, yep definately lots of potential!
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Post by robertsconley on May 10, 2011 7:54:10 GMT -6
In all seriousness, the Book of Judges would be an excellent basis for a fantasy campaign. I never used it for a campaign but it inspired the background of an important culture and the paladins in my Majestic Wilderlands setting. The Ghinorians are a rough equivalent of Rome in my Majestic Wilderland. Their culture formed a heart of a huge empire that reached nearly every region of the Wilderlands. But before that, they were just another tribe and they were held as slaves by the Thule who were Set worshipers. Mitra sent a prophet among them and led the Ghinorians out of Thule into freedom. They wandered for a bit and settled into a large river valley that became known as the Land of Ghinor. They were divided into seven tribes, six were ruled by a Prince and each had their own territory in Ghinor. The seventh was the priest tribe that led the other Ghinorians in the worship of Mitra. This tribe was nucleus around which the Church of Mitra formed during the Imperial Era. The Ghinorian were not united politically and the Prince often fought each other and outsiders. There were times when outside or internal threats would threaten the entire nation and Mitra would called a Judge to receive the blessing of the priests then go and fix the problem. But it was soon clear that the ad-hoc anointing of Judges wasn't enough. With Mitra's blessing the priests found the Order of the Lion, a cavalry unit that had the speed and capability of defending the Ghinorian nation. The members of the Order of the Lion were blessed by Mitra and became the first paladins. It was also the main force behind the unification of the tribes into the Kingdom of Ghinor. The history doesn't end there but that the portion inspired by the Book of Judges.
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Post by Falconer on May 11, 2011 11:33:32 GMT -6
Some great points, here. I’ve always argued against those who say the Cleric has no literary/mythological/biblical antecedent and was created whole-cloth by Arneson and Gygax. Slightly off-topic (in that Moses is mentioned only in passing), but I think well-worth reading the first section of this if interested in running an Exodus campaign. As for a Mormon-inspired campaign, I would definitely go the Battlestar Galactica (TOS) route with that!
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Post by stevemitchell on May 11, 2011 21:29:58 GMT -6
An interesting variant for an Exodus campaign: play the Canaanites, Hivites, Jebusites, Perezzites, etc. who currently occupy Canaan, and who one day discover an army crossing the Jordan River from the east, bent on the wholesale annihilation of all who dwell within Canaan. Can Baal, Dagon, and Molech save you from the bloodthirsty legions of Yahweh?
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