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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 13, 2011 5:38:25 GMT -6
Men and Magic has this to say of the subject of Changing Character Class (at the top of page 10): While changing class (for other than elves) is not recommended, the following rule should be applied: ln order for men to change class they must have a score of 16 or better in the prime requisite (see below) of the class they wish to change to, and this score must be unmodified. A Cleric with a "strength" of 15, for example, could not became a Fighting-Man. In any event Magic-Users cannot become Clerics and vice-versa. While this passage places several restrictions on changing class (incidentally precluding almost all PCs from ever doing so) it neglects to elaborate on how changing class should work, except (perhaps) to point the reader toward Elves as an example. However, Elves are stated as the exception to the more general case. As this subject has come up several times in my own games recently, I have devised the following, which I thought to share here for your amusement and general comment. (This is intended to wholly replace the paragraph on page 10. I have thieves instead of clerics, but you should be able to get the gist of it...) Changing Character ClassChanging class is not recommended, but should the referee allow it the following should be observed. The character must firstly have a minimum rank of 13 in the primary attribute of the class he wishes to change to. He must then immerse himself in the study of his new occupation for 2d6, 3d6 or 4d6 weeks in order to switch to the thieving, fighting or magic-using classes, respectively. When this is complete the character drops one level from his former class and attains the 1st level of experience in his new class. All subsequently earned experience is accumulated in his new class, in which he will advance thereafter. The character retains the attack rolls, HD and saving throws of his previous class so long as they are preferable to those of his new class, but in all other respects he must abide by the restrictions of his new class. For example, Ergwhile the Hero (4th level fighting-Man) wishes to change to the magic-using class. He has 13 intelligence so the referee permits the change. Ergwhile must spend 4d6 weeks studying his new craft (at his own expense) and then drop all pretense of the fighting class in order to become instead a 1st level Magic-User. He will retain, however, the attack rolls and 3 HD of a 3rd level Fighting-Man until such a time as he reaches the rank of 6th level Magic-User (whose attack rolls and HD would be better). Likewise, he retains the saving throws of a 3rd level Fighting-Man while they are better than his Magic-User saving throws.
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Post by vito on Apr 13, 2011 5:49:51 GMT -6
You mentioned expense in your example there. Do you have a price guide in mind?
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 13, 2011 6:02:54 GMT -6
The first thing that occurs to me is that 3d6 (no re-rolls) in order the odds of having two stats of 16+ are pretty small, so "by the book" this rule shouldn't come into play much at all.
By the way: I don't allow characters to switch class. If you want a new class, roll a new character. But, that's just the way I do it.
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Post by aldarron on Apr 13, 2011 9:07:45 GMT -6
Sounds okay Ways. Maybe a little complicated for my taste, but that's cool. You're right that the rule is vague, and I prefer to read "changing character class" as a non elf version of elves "dual" class nature. So your 3rd level fighter becomes a 3rd level fighter/1st level MU and thereafter splits exp between the two classes or devotes all xp to one class or the other - as the player prefers. I'm pretty easy going about this kind of stuff.
I do like that you lowered the required prime requisite to 13, which makes more sense to me, and also happens to be the number Arneson used for Elves switching between MU and Fighting man.
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Post by Harbinger on Apr 13, 2011 11:11:07 GMT -6
The first thing that occurs to me is that 3d6 (no re-rolls) in order the odds of having two stats of 16+ are pretty small, so "by the book" this rule shouldn't come into play much at all. The first module I owned, B1 In Search of the Unknown has a magic rock that may grant a one-time attribute increase. This left me with the impression that permanent ability score boosting magic was a common method of getting characters 'over the hump' of stat requirements. Personally, if a player wanted to dual-class and didn't meet the attribute bonus, I'd have them seek out an ancient lost artifact that would fix that. I always like to use 'in-game' mechanisms instead of rules.
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Post by talysman on Apr 13, 2011 16:07:14 GMT -6
I like the idea of lowering the requirement to 13+, but not the training time/expenses. In my mind, the classes are archetypes, not professions, so there should be no training. Also, the only part in the original rules that I think is vague is the "unmodified score" requirement. I'm thinking this should mean "temporarily unmodified" rather than permanent score changes; in other words, if the character is wearing a magic item that increases a score while worn, the character doesn't qualify for class changes.
The difference between changing classes and the pre-Greyhawk elf is that in general you can't change *back*, the way an elf can. I would allow characters to switch back and forth the way an elf does if the character meets the minimum score to change to both classes. So, a character with only one score above 15 (or above 12, under your suggestion,) would only be able to make a one-way change; one with two high scores could switch back and forth exactly like an elf (but without the unique elven ability to cast spells while wearing magic armor.)
I'd also actually prefer to handle character concepts like the paladin this way. Fighter character wants some divine bennies? If they stay Lawful and have a high enough Wisdom, they can switch to Cleric at some point and get the ability to use swords, pole arms, and missile weapons mixed in with spell use.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2011 17:06:04 GMT -6
Also, the only part in the original rules that I think is vague is the "unmodified score" requirement. This is referring to the raising of one ability score at the cost of lowering another at character generation as outlined in "Men & Magic".
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 13, 2011 19:26:22 GMT -6
You mentioned expense in your example there. Do you have a price guide in mind? Left to the referee's discretion. Perhaps the cost in time alone is enough? I like the idea of lowering the requirement to 13+, but not the training time/expenses. In my mind, the classes are archetypes, not professions, so there should be no training. It's all just ideas, but yeah, I figure there would almost never be a character with a 16+ in the prime requisite ability of a class and then not choose that class. As for the training part... it isn't really important, discard it if you like. Personally, I think a period of "attuning" to the new class is reasonable, particularly considering the magic-using class who are described as studious -- but perhaps less so if you prefer an "inbuilt supernatural powers" kind of magic-user.
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Post by thorswulf on Apr 13, 2011 20:01:23 GMT -6
I think I'd keep the rule as it stands. Yeah the odds of rolling two 16+ scores is mighty thin, but as it was pointed out this isn't a problem with attribute raising magic items. The rule regarding clerics and magic users also makes sense from an ethical and technical point of view. MU's get their powers from dominating and bending energies to their will, and at their whim. Clerics are granted their powers through a divine channelling of godly power, at the whim of the divine, not the cleric. Besides a god/devil/whatever isn't likely to want a follower who has a lot of personal power to start with. And a priest turned wizard would find all that he was taught to believe about the essence of power to be "incorrect" and I seriously doubt their minds could handle it. Remember this is a medieval world, not the 21st century! Besides their are many precedent in fact as well as fiction for fighters to become clerics. Saint Francis and Brother Cadfael come to mind. Likewise a defrocked priest really doesn't have too many options other than fighting of some sort. Just my 2 drachmas worth.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 13, 2011 20:11:23 GMT -6
It's interesting to observe that much of the discussion is around when changing class should be permitted, rather than how it should be achieved. Addressing the latter was the intention of my original post ...the character drops one level from his former class and attains the 1st level of experience in his new class. All subsequently earned experience is accumulated in his new class, in which he will advance thereafter. The character retains the attack rolls, HD and saving throws of his previous class so long as they are preferable to those of his new class, but in all other respects he must abide by the restrictions of his new class.
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Post by talysman on Apr 13, 2011 21:10:17 GMT -6
Also, the only part in the original rules that I think is vague is the "unmodified score" requirement. This is referring to the raising of one ability score at the cost of lowering another at character generation as outlined in "Men & Magic". Maybe, and maybe not. That's why I consider it vague. For one, I think those rules don't actually raise any ability scores, although they were later interpreted as a point exchange. For another, magic can modify scores temporarily or permanently; in AD&D, how many times a character can be resurrected is based on the initial, unmodified Constitution and this cannot be increased, so we have a precedent for Gary using "unmodified" in a very strict sense.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2011 6:41:54 GMT -6
This is referring to the raising of one ability score at the cost of lowering another at character generation as outlined in "Men & Magic". Maybe, and maybe not. That's why I consider it vague. For one, I think those rules don't actually raise any ability scores, although they were later interpreted as a point exchange. For another, magic can modify scores temporarily or permanently; in AD&D, how many times a character can be resurrected is based on the initial, unmodified Constitution and this cannot be increased, so we have a precedent for Gary using "unmodified" in a very strict sense. I realize Gygax gave varying answers to questions about D&D over the years, and he was often answering questions about something he had written decades before and memory can be an inconsistent servant. At any rate, when asked about the "unmodified" ability scores over on EnWorld, he indicated it referred to the raising an ability score at the cost of lowering another. Be that as it may, I see no reason for you to consider your interpretation of the rules any less valid than his, and I'm sure he would say the same thing if he were to answer your question.
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Post by thorswulf on Apr 14, 2011 22:08:02 GMT -6
How does a character change class? Finding a teacher would be a good start. I would hazard a guess that the teacher would have to have combat abilities above what the character currently has/had if they became fighting men. Finding a priest or wizard to train you might be a bit more challenging. I would guess that some time would be taken up with studies and so forth, as well figuring out whether the character had a will or aptitude for his new class.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 14, 2011 22:29:20 GMT -6
The two classic motivations that I can think of for changing class are: 1) At the beginning of a campaign the players generally opt for character classes which more or less compliment one another. However, as the game progresses characters come and go. Eventually, a company of mid or high level PCs can find themselves lacking for a good fighter, a wise wizard or a canny rogue. Nobody really wants to stop playing a PC they have been "working on" for a year or two just because the party is suddenly comprised entirely of fighting-Men. So one way out of this problem is for one (or more) PCs to change class. 2) The party has at last unearthed a powerful magic-item which is (perhaps?) central to events in an unfolding campaign, but whose use is restricted to members of a certain class. If the players are already mid- or high level but there is nobody of the required class -- or else if a particular PC has an absolutely burning ambition to master that item but is of the wrong class, then there may be a reasonable case for allowing a switch. Of course there may be other, equally valid cases which I haven't thought of...
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Post by tombowings on Apr 14, 2011 23:34:10 GMT -6
I never really thought about that, Ways. Interesting. I'll have to think some more about this whole issue.
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Post by norse on Apr 15, 2011 5:59:54 GMT -6
For a heavily Lankhmar influenced mini-campaign I'm about to run using Holmes, character class may be changed at will, requiring only a minimum of 9 in the prime requisite. All that would be required is about an hour at the character's base of operations to change gear (any appropriate gear would need to be purchased or otherwise, thieves tools etc) and prepare. Although players wishing to become a magic user will have to learn some spells from somewhere first (players beginning as a magic-user will begin with some of course).
Advancement in each class would be considered entirely seperate (hit points, attack rank, special abilities, spellcasting etc all equal to the appropriate level of experience gained in that class).
The reasoning behind this is that first level represents a base level of competence that any slightly adventurous person could achieve, which is why first level thieves abilities aren't very good.
Obviously this will make much more of a difference in city adventuring, as your base of operations is likely to be within very easy walking distance. A base camp set up in the wilderness or underground would also count the same however.
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Post by thorswulf on Apr 15, 2011 8:52:47 GMT -6
The classic Helm of alignment change would possibly be grounds for class change. Personally if I had a high level character who lost levels fighting a level draining monster to the point that starting all over again seemed pointless, I'd become a sword swinger. The change might be refreshing at that point.
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