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Post by Stormcrow on Mar 12, 2011 15:19:22 GMT -6
According to page 11,
So if a party of three characters is on the fourth level and encounters wandering ogres, they will encounter only one ogre. A party of six would encounter two.
What about orcs? Suppose a party of three characters on the first level encounters wandering orcs. How many are there? There should only be the basic number of monsters, but how many orcs (which are found in groups) comprise the basic number?
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Post by talysman on Mar 12, 2011 19:19:43 GMT -6
My approach is to compare the current (adjusted) dungeon level to the level chart the wandering monster appears on. - base level -1: 2d6 to 6d6
- base level: 1d6 to 2d6
- base level +1: 1d6-2 to 1d6
- base level +2: d6/2
- base level +3: 1 to d6/3
For the strongest monsters on a given chart, use the lower number. For weaker monsters, use the higher number. Similarly, for monsters normally found in small groups, use the lower, and for those found in large numbers, use the higher. So: orcs are on the Level 1 chart and are normally found in large numbers. A first level encounter (base level) will be with 2d6 orcs. On the 2nd level, it will be higher: maybe not the full 6d6 possible, but certainly at least 3d6 or 4d6. I say "adjusted" level because below 4th level, the random monster charts seem to assume the base level = dungeon level/2 +1.
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Post by coffee on Mar 12, 2011 19:23:28 GMT -6
That's a good idea!
I just would have said "3".
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Post by talysman on Mar 12, 2011 19:33:41 GMT -6
That's a good idea! I just would have said "3". Not that bad of an approach... My numbers are kind of arbitrary, too. I don't even remember how I arrived at the dice listed, but it works for the ogre example (ogres are Level 4 monsters, so you should only find 1 or 2 on the first level.) The numbers are about what they should be, but they don't match the quoted passage from U&WA.
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Post by coffee on Mar 13, 2011 1:22:27 GMT -6
I think the important thing is that your players enjoy the challenge. If they do, you're doing it right.
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Post by Stormcrow on Mar 13, 2011 7:51:48 GMT -6
Okay, so both you guys are saying, "No answer found in the book."
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Post by coffee on Mar 13, 2011 13:48:32 GMT -6
Okay, so both you guys are saying, "No answer found in the book." Exactly.
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Post by Falconer on Mar 13, 2011 17:17:11 GMT -6
Extrapolating from B2, Kobolds/Goblins usually come in groups of 6 and Orcs/Hobgoblins/Gnolls usually come in groups of 4.
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Post by cooper on Mar 14, 2011 16:38:27 GMT -6
There are a couple of other ways of handling this based on Gygax and Arneson's writings. Arneson assigned "points" to each level of a dungeon based on the unit costs in CHAINMAIL. On pg. 7 of wilderness and underworld they say;
later on they say that in a 10' passage only 3 abreast with the balance behind or coming from a different direction. As an asside, dungeon/cave orcs are different from village orcs.
since the number appearing is 30-300 I would say perhaps that (after determining the size of the tribe) that no more than 30 orcs X dungeon level will be encountered. 30 on the 1st level, 60 on the second etc.
So if it's determined when making your 1st level dungeon you roll up a room full of orcs, I would put the number at 30. If encountered outside of this room as a wandering monster then perhaps simply roll 3d6 for the number and include a 2 HD leader (as OSRIC calls it a "war party"). If found outside of their lair, pg. 7 of monsters and lairs says they can be found in groups of 10-80 guarding wagon trains (10 per wagon up to 8 wagons) and lead by a 7-11th level human master.
Arneson's own system from FFC was to assign a number of points to each level of a dungeon (perhaps 100) and using the numbers from CHAINMAIL unit costs, fill each level thusly. So the 1st level of a dungeon might have 66 orcs and no other monsters, or perhaps 2 ogres and 40 orcs (15x2+1.5x40 = 100) or 2 ogres, a 4th level magic user and 26 orcs (15x2+20x1+26x1.5 = 100)
LLB's are clear that once a creature has been rolled for, either in the wilderness or in the dungeon, it is assumed the referee will incorporate these creatures into the game world.
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Post by Lord Kilgore on Mar 14, 2011 21:38:07 GMT -6
According to page 11, So if a party of three characters is on the fourth level and encounters wandering ogres, they will encounter only one ogre. A party of six would encounter two. I'm surprised to see this sort of encounter scaling to the size of the party specified. I would have thought that was a no-no.
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Post by talysman on Mar 14, 2011 22:11:30 GMT -6
According to page 11, So if a party of three characters is on the fourth level and encounters wandering ogres, they will encounter only one ogre. A party of six would encounter two. I'm surprised to see this sort of encounter scaling to the size of the party specified. I would have thought that was a no-no. At least it doesn't scale to their average level. I think scaling to party size can be justified "realistically" as large party sounds bigger, so more monsters go to investigate.
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Post by aldarron on Oct 20, 2011 9:22:07 GMT -6
Okay, so both you guys are saying, "No answer found in the book." I think there was an intended and specific meaning, exactly what is the question. My reading of that is that it is key to match dungeon level to HD level to party numbers. The "basic" "number of monsters" = 1HD per level per 3 PC's So, to answer the question, 3 PC's on level one should encouter 1 orc, on level 1 2 orcs on level 2 3 orcs on levle 3 and so forth. But orcs travel in groups, so there should be at least or about 2. 4-6 PC's might encounter 2-4 orcs, give or take, etc. For a 4 HD Ogre, from levels 1-3 there would only be 1 ogre. On level 4 there would be 1 for 1-3 PC's, 2 Ogres' for 4-6 PC's etc. Not difficult to figure when the HD of monster and dungeon level match. Gets fuzzier when that's not the case, I think.
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Post by Finarvyn on Oct 21, 2011 5:44:08 GMT -6
I probably would roll 1d6 orcs per couple of characters. On the other hand, I also like to use a hit-kill system for orcs rather than track their HP. (Sort of a "mook" rule.)
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 21, 2011 7:31:12 GMT -6
If the level beneath the surface roughly corresponds with the level of the monster then the number of monsters will be based on a single creature I read " the number of monsters will be based on a single creature" as meaning; the Number Appearing roll is read as one for one. If you accept that then; The Number Appearing statistics throughout assume that monsters are encountered on a dungeon level equal to their HD (or equivalent). When encountered elsewhere, adjust the number appearing accordingly. So. Ogres are 4 HD monsters with 3 to 18 appearing on the 4th dungeon level. On the 2nd dungeon level only half many would be found (2 to 9), and on the 1st dungeon level one quarter as many would be found (1 to 4). Meanwhile, descending to the 6th dungeon level, half as many Ogres again as would be found on the 4th level occur (5 to 27), and on the 8th dungeon level twice as many as would be found as on the 4th level occur (6 to 32). And so on. What about orcs? Suppose a party of three characters on the first level encounters wandering orcs. How many are there? There should only be the basic number of monsters, but how many orcs (which are found in groups) comprise the basic number? Orcs are 1 HD monsters with 30 to 300 appearing on the 1st dungeon level (across the whole of the level, not all crammed into one room unless it is vast). If they occurred on the second dungeon level, then twice as many would be present (60 to 600). And so on. The narrow confines of a dungeon will mean the players are unlikely to realise the full strength of such a foe immediately... You can scale those numbers up or down if you think your players are a larger or smaller group... but I don't think you need to because although the risks are higher for a smaller group, so too are the rewards greater as any treasure would be divided among fewer victors. It's up to the players to decide which challenges they can handle, and which are best left well alone.
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Post by aldarron on Oct 21, 2011 10:23:34 GMT -6
mmmhmmm. I see what you mean Ways and agree it could be read that way and there is a certain elegance to it. However that would contradict I think the Number Appearing note in M&T pg 4, "*Referee's option: Increase or decrease according to party concerned (used primarily only for out-door encounters)." The 1eMM has something similar in another of Gygax's cryptic descriptions "Number Appearing... is not generally reccomended for use in establishing the population of Dungeon Levels." p5. If so it wouldn't be the only contradiction in the rules. There also notes in the FFC and elsewhere that indicate the intent of the number range given is for Number Appearing in a Hex or Lair, not number "wandering" about. The PC's should only be encountering some subset of that number except in the case of some monsters with small populations that the PC's may find in Lair. So I think Gygax's statement above is an effort to scale wandering encouters to small events within PC strength to handle, assuming smart PCs would be sticking to Dungeon Levels similar to thier character Level. That would also fit with how we know wandering monsters were handled later - smallish numbers the party can usually handle. If on the other hand 3 first level characters on a first level dungeon encounter a "wandering" 30 to 300 Orcs flooding into a room...
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Post by cooper on Oct 21, 2011 11:53:18 GMT -6
Well, FFC gives us # of combatats @30%. So, an average orc lair of 150 orcs will have 45 males, I believe Od&d tells us that no more than 1/2 this # will be away from the lair, so thats about 20 orcs.
Gygax followed this model in keep on the borderland, he even followed the 0d&d rule of requiring waring orc tribes when more than a certain number were present.
So of the 20 "wandering" orcs, 5 might be in one room, 10 somewhere else, and 15 elsewhere, with 25 more males back at the tribe/clan with the females.
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Post by aldarron on Oct 21, 2011 19:17:19 GMT -6
Well, FFC gives us # of combatats @30%. So, an average orc lair of 150 orcs will have 45 males,... Interesting idea Coop, but not what was intended. The 30% village militia (Fyrd) available to a noble to call into miitary service is a human situation and doesn't apply to monsters. Arnesons intentions for the use of the number appearing and wandering monster stats can be found on page 25 of the '80 reprint FFC "Again to avoid confusion, you may wish to take the maximum number of creatures that are listed on the Monster Matrix as representative of the population in the hex for each encounter, given a plus or minus 10% to keep the players on their toes. For each time that the creatures are found in their lairs, there will be a chance that a portion of them are out in the countryside. To determine this number, assume that 40% of the population is always in the camp and that up to 60% (10 - 60%) are always outside of the camp.” [/quote] I believe Od&d tells us that no more than 1/2 this # will be away from the lair, so thats about 20 orcs. Gygax followed this model in keep on the borderland, he even followed the 0d&d rule of requiring waring orc tribes when more than a certain number were present. That 1/2 stat is interesting and I'm sure you are remembering it from somewhere. I don't myself recall seeing it, but it would be interesting to track down. So of the 20 "wandering" orcs, 5 might be in one room, 10 somewhere else, and 15 elsewhere, with 25 more males back at the tribe/clan with the females. I've worked the details into the monster discriptions in CoZ. but its worth pointing out here that orcs, as well as some of the other creatures, have certain percentages of female combatanats in B2.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 22, 2011 6:49:08 GMT -6
That would also fit with how we know wandering monsters were handled later - smallish numbers the party can usually handle. That sounds a little like handing the players only fights they can win. If on the other hand 3 first level characters on a first level dungeon encounter a "wandering" 30 to 300 Orcs flooding into a room... This is exactly what is described in Vol. III on page 12; There can be places where 300 Hobgoblins dwell, but how many can come abreast down a typical passage in dungeons? Allow perhaps 3 in a ten foot wide passage, and the balance will either be behind the front rank or fanning out to come upon the enemy by other routes. The most fearsome Man or monster can be overwhelmed by sheer numbers of smaller/weaker creatures provided the latter are able to close!
I believe Od&d tells us that no more than 1/2 this # will be away from the lair I've always understood that the % in Lair figure is supposed to indicate the probability that any encounter will be in the monsters' lair. I've never found it very convincing; two consecutive encounters in exactly the same place but with different monster types can both be "in lair". It's especially curious when the PCs are in an empty corridor! What if "% In Lair" instead indicates the proportion of the total number of monsters which stay in the lair, while the rest are wandering about? Take our Orcs, for example. Orcs are listed as 30 to 300 appearing and 50% in Lair. Let's say we rolled up 160 Orcs. 50% of them are "in lair" at any time, while the other 50% are wandering about nearby doing "Orc stuff" and randomly bumping into PCs. So there are 80 Orcs within "wandering" distance of the lair, and a further 80 Orcs in the lair itself. The only question then is, how many of the 80 "wandering" Orcs do the PCs encounter on a wandering monster roll? This is, perhaps, where the referee can exercise his discretion or else throw a die to decide. If, for example, he threw 2 on a d6, then 2/6ths of the 80 wandering Orcs would be encountered. 2/6*80 = 26 Orcs. It certainly not "by the book", but it could work.
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Post by foxroe on Oct 22, 2011 8:21:14 GMT -6
That sounds a little like handing the players only fights they can win. That's assuming that the PC party is always at full strength. I believe that the intent of wandering monsters is to serve as a resource sink, and to keep the player's from becoming too complacent in the dungeon.
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Post by aldarron on Oct 22, 2011 12:22:58 GMT -6
That sounds a little like handing the players only fights they can win. That's assuming that the PC party is always at full strength. I believe that the intent of wandering monsters is to serve as a resource sink, and to keep the player's from becoming too complacent in the dungeon. Yeah, and the other thing is that its only a winning situation if the PC's stay on a dungeon level compatible with thier character level.
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Post by aldarron on Oct 22, 2011 12:41:09 GMT -6
I believe Od&d tells us that no more than 1/2 this # will be away from the lair I've always understood that the % in Lair figure is supposed to indicate the probability that any encounter will be in the monsters' lair. I've never found it very convincing; two consecutive encounters in exactly the same place but with different monster types can both be "in lair". It's especially curious when the PCs are in an empty corridor! What if "% In Lair" instead indicates the proportion of the total number of monsters which stay in the lair, while the rest are wandering about? Take our Orcs, for example. Orcs are listed as 30 to 300 appearing and 50% in Lair. Let's say we rolled up 160 Orcs. 50% of them are "in lair" at any time, while the other 50% are wandering about nearby doing "Orc stuff" and randomly bumping into PCs. So there are 80 Orcs within "wandering" distance of the lair, and a further 80 Orcs in the lair itself. The only question then is, how many of the 80 "wandering" Orcs do the PCs encounter on a wandering monster roll? This is, perhaps, where the referee can exercise his discretion or else throw a die to decide. If, for example, he threw 2 on a d6, then 2/6ths of the 80 wandering Orcs would be encountered. 2/6*80 = 26 Orcs. It certainly not "by the book", but it could work. Yeah that's what I used to think it was too and thought it pretty useless considering most modules had rooms keyed and wandering monsters already listed. It can definetly be used that way though. The purpose for it though was for use in hex crawl and/or random adventure generation to determine the chances that the PC's have stumbled on a lair (a "Dynamic Lair" in ACKS parlance) or just a group of monsters who are some subset of the lair population (10 to 60% of lair total divided by half for each 5 or 6 on a die roll). used the rest of that Arneson quote and wrote a post about it here: boggswood.blogspot.com/2011/08/in-lair.html
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