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Post by calithena on Jan 20, 2011 9:14:53 GMT -6
The great ChicagoWiz recently issued a challenge in his blog for us to come up with creative new worlds and, perhaps, rule systems.
I am not so sure they are not already out there, frankly.
Immediately and without any effort I came up with the following three creative, engaging fantasy worlds that have substantial support already: Lux's Fomalhaut, McKinney's Carcosa, and Stater's Nod. I am sure there are a ton more on this board alone, never mind Dragonsfoot and K&K and so on. If you throw in all the amazing stuff on the various blogs out there there's a compete flood.
I don't at all feel that there's a lack of creative, engaging fantasy material coming out of the OSR. Some of this predates the OSR of course, which is why I put OSR in quotes in the thread title - any serious fantasy world is probably going to have been kicking around in the creator's head for at least a while before it supports blogging or publication or whatever.
I do think it would be nice if more people followed Geoffrey's lead and put out their fantasy worlds as stand-alone supplements or rulesets. The more the merrier! I know I would be happy to support such creations, and in fact one of my very few regrets about Fight On! is that it has basically taken whatever time I might have had to put my own world of Advent or my friend Del's world of Oceania out there for others to enjoy.
Anyway, if the criticism is supposed to be that there is a lack of creativity, I profoundly disagree. If ChicagoWiz' point was more that more of us ought to be taking the final step with our creativity and creating stand-alone products of singular vision, well, I do agree that that would be a good thing, but everyone has to decide how best to use their own time, and indeed whether they even want their own fantastic visions to get out there for a wider audience.
But anyway, JamesM weighed in on this on Grognardia recently and it's a good subject so I wanted to give my own take.
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Jan 21, 2011 14:33:40 GMT -6
I'm not familiar with Slater's Nod, could you provide any links to relevant information?
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Post by calithena on Jan 21, 2011 15:31:53 GMT -6
The blog is here matt-landofnod.blogspot.com/although a lot of the world information is in the magazine he publishes for it on lulu. Gabor just put up the PDF basic rules for his world, although you will want to check out FO! #3 for the Gazetteer, if I recall correctly. |
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Post by calithena on Jan 21, 2011 15:38:38 GMT -6
It would be neat of some more of the cool science fantasy worlds people have been brewing up out there got a broader presentation.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2011 15:40:32 GMT -6
The blog is here matt-landofnod.blogspot.com/although a lot of the world information is in the magazine he publishes for it on lulu. Gabor just put up the PDF basic rules for his world, although you will want to check out FO! #3 for the Gazetteer, if I recall correctly. Thanks for the link! |
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Post by kesher on Jan 21, 2011 17:41:27 GMT -6
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Post by Mr. Darke on Jan 21, 2011 19:37:14 GMT -6
Personally, I tend to like the standard fantasy over the exotic. Exotic things are OK in their own right but, for me, just for the occasional foray rather than a whole campaign.
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Post by calithena on Jan 21, 2011 20:18:01 GMT -6
I won't, or Planet Algol, or the setting Ramsey's developing at Sickly Purple Death Ray, or....I actually started writing a bunch and then I stopped because I'd never get it complete. It's great that we can all share stuff with each other over the internet, whether we get to publishing it or not. |
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Post by talysman on Jan 21, 2011 21:25:43 GMT -6
I haven't developed them yet (have too many other projects that need attention first,) but I previously posted my one-page proposal for the 2002 fantasy setting search, The Aurichale Empire, which I could turn into a slightly-warped old school setting... and I just now posted some details on another old plan for a fantasy world, Malignment, where the traditional alignments are replaced by the warring forces of Legend and Dream that are tearing apart the world. And I have plans for Atomic Horror D&D and Space Patrol D&D. Maybe when I'm done with Liber Zero/Liber Blanc, I'll ask my blog readers which sci-fi project and which fantasy project to develop first. |
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Post by Falconer on Jan 22, 2011 11:41:54 GMT -6
The Mighty Land of Vanth, from Encounter Critical, is pretty great.
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Post by tavis on Jan 22, 2011 20:05:36 GMT -6
My co-teacher, James_Nostack, introduced the Land of Vanth map to the afterschool D&D class we teach. A stroke of genius. He also gave them Peter Mullen's Lair of the Asmophdean Techno-Mage illustration.
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Post by kesher on Jan 22, 2011 21:21:26 GMT -6
My co-teacher, James_Nostack, introduced the Land of Vanth map to the afterschool D&D class we teach. A stroke of genius. He also gave them Peter Mullen's Lair of the Asmophdean Techno-Mage illustration. Beautiful! |
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Post by chicagowiz on Jan 24, 2011 8:33:19 GMT -6
I do think it would be nice if more people followed Geoffrey's lead and put out their fantasy worlds as stand-alone supplements or rulesets. ... If ChicagoWiz' point was more that more of us ought to be taking the final step with our creativity and creating stand-alone products of singular vision, well, I do agree that that would be a good thing +1 and that is exactly what I'm hoping for. You just put it far better and more succinctly than my big mouth could. If you look at people like tachaira who are "afraid" to put their stuff out in fear of the "we-want-same-orc-all-the-time" OSR crowd, that's a shame. (BTW, said wwsoatt crowd doesn't represent the OSR in entirety, but their slings/arrows do number enough that people are aware of it and dissuaded by it.) I wonder how many other really neat campaigns are out there that go places that we might not otherwise hear about? |
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Post by calithena on Jan 24, 2011 17:57:11 GMT -6
Taichara has another article for FO! #11 coming out shortly. Her stuff is really good IMO.
Chicagowiz: Glass half empty! People are creative but they don't get their creativity out there in published form in one place enough!
Calithena: Glass half full! People are creative! It would be cool if more of them got their creativity out there in published form though.
So, good argument there. :-)
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Post by James Maliszewski on Jan 25, 2011 7:27:43 GMT -6
If you look at people like tachaira who are "afraid" to put their stuff out in fear of the "we-want-same-orc-all-the-time" OSR crowd, that's a shame. It is a shame, but I don't think it's at all reasonable to lay blame for it on any segment of "the OSR." I find it frustrating to say the least that, after all this time, people still find ways to point fingers and claim it's other people's fault that they don't do this or that. I learned long ago that, no matter what you do, someone somewhere isn't going to like what you've done, so the only critic who really matters is oneself. If anyone is really so thin-skinned and unsure of themselves that they don't share their ideas out of fear that someone might not slap them on the back and high-five them for their efforts, then the Internet probably isn't the place for them. (My apologies in advance for this comment, but, speaking as someone who is constantly on the receiving end of unwarranted, absurd, and occasionally delusional criticisms, I no longer have any patience with the expectation that everyone is going to encourage and support all of one's efforts, regardless of what they are.) |
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Post by calithena on Jan 25, 2011 8:34:06 GMT -6
That's pretty tough, James, although I know where you're coming from. (We have talked about it at length offline, after all.  ) I can't fault people for wanting to avoid criticism, personally, though generally anyone who puts out something creative will also find some love to go along with it. I guess I also don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to keep one's fantastic creations to oneself, or wanting to share them through a blog or web posts rather than going to the trouble of publishing self-contained things that are fun to have and offer different pathways of evaluation and experience. It's just a question of what your priorities are, really. In the end we all do our own thing and enjoy our own imagination the way we want. I do agree that it's nice for the community when people take the trouble to share in more systematic ways, but like everything else that kind of participation is optional, unless you're working for a company that makes gaming stuff and have to meet deadlines, etc. |
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Post by chicagowiz on Jan 25, 2011 8:41:45 GMT -6
Taichara has another article for FO! #11 coming out shortly. Her stuff is really good IMO. Chicagowiz: Glass half empty! People are creative but they don't get their creativity out there in published form in one place enough! Calithena: Glass half full! People are creative! It would be cool if more of them got their creativity out there in published form though. So, good argument there. :-) Rather than glass empty/full, I think of myself like my 7 month old granddaughter who just sucked her baba dry and is screaming for more. Wait...   Seriously, I think we have an embarrassment of riches (I've heard that phrase a lot in the bloggy/forumsphere) but it'd be nice to see the actual publishers do the digging to find the gems that should be brought out into the open, as opposed to spending time/money/effort on recasting Core/Complete S&W Monsters into a WhiteBox book (or Delving Deeper, or BFRPG, or OSRIC, etc...) |
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Post by chicagowiz on Jan 25, 2011 8:46:14 GMT -6
If you look at people like tachaira who are "afraid" to put their stuff out in fear of the "we-want-same-orc-all-the-time" OSR crowd, that's a shame. It is a shame, but I don't think it's at all reasonable to lay blame for it on any segment of "the OSR." I find it frustrating to say the least that, after all this time, people still find ways to point fingers and claim it's other people's fault that they don't do this or that. I learned long ago that, no matter what you do, someone somewhere isn't going to like what you've done, so the only critic who really matters is oneself. If anyone is really so thin-skinned and unsure of themselves that they don't share their ideas out of fear that someone might not slap them on the back and high-five them for their efforts, then the Internet probably isn't the place for them. (My apologies in advance for this comment, but, speaking as someone who is constantly on the receiving end of unwarranted, absurd, and occasionally delusional criticisms, I no longer have any patience with the expectation that everyone is going to encourage and support all of one's efforts, regardless of what they are.) I get that. Moreso than you might think (*cough*TARGA*cough*) but there are a lot of people who don't want that or need that drama. It is a sad reality of the publishing world, the expectations of fans but it also is a shame when part of that is due to the OSR expectations. I think there is evidence that sort of rigidity exists. We've seen an exemplar in the "screw these clones, y'all are useless" arguments. Agreed, it's probably limited to the 137 of us on the forums/blogs, but it is there. |
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Post by James Maliszewski on Jan 25, 2011 9:28:42 GMT -6
I guess I also don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to keep one's fantastic creations to oneself, or wanting to share them through a blog or web posts rather than going to the trouble of publishing self-contained things that are fun to have and offer different pathways of evaluation and experience. It's just a question of what your priorities are, really. Oh, sure, absolutely. My point is more that it really gets my back up when I hear people blame "the OSR" for their own inability or unwillingness (or even disinterest) in doing X or Y. Despite the nonsense that's circulated in the fever swamps of certain forums and blogs, there's no OSR Star Chamber out there passing judgment on anyone's contributions. I think a lot of people think that, because we all enjoy old school RPGs, we all enjoy them the same way or for the same reasons and that's never been true (now or then). Consequently, some contributions are simply going to get more love and attention than others and, while that often means that some really neat stuff gets overlooked, ignored, or even vilified from time to time, that's just the nature of the beast. That has nothing to do with "the OSR" and I'm honestly getting tired of the implication that it does. |
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Post by James Maliszewski on Jan 25, 2011 9:35:41 GMT -6
but it also is a shame when part of that is due to the OSR expectations. I think there is evidence that sort of rigidity exists. I guess I just don't see it. There are certainly different segments of the OSR who have strong and clear preferences and interests, but don't we all? I suppose it can be frustrating if one's own preferences and interests don't find much (or any) popular support, but that's the risk we all face. Again, I simply don't like attempts to pin this situation on "the OSR," as if it were either a monolith or indeed any different than any other human community anywhere in history. People like what they like and often for seemingly irrational reasons. That's not necessarily "rigidity" and I certainly don't see it as worthy of complaint. All anyone can do is do what one loves and screw the rest. If others find joy in it too, that's a bonus. |
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Post by chicagowiz on Jan 25, 2011 10:53:15 GMT -6
but it also is a shame when part of that is due to the OSR expectations. I think there is evidence that sort of rigidity exists. I guess I just don't see it. There are certainly different segments of the OSR who have strong and clear preferences and interests, but don't we all? All anyone can do is do what one loves and screw the rest. If others find joy in it too, that's a bonus.That last statement is definitely how I feel, but I've also seen/felt the power of the rabid frothing set (ala Carcosa and Porngate) to know it can be a powerful dissuader. I don't think there's an official Star Chamber, by the same token I think there can be a lot of loud voices (of which I'm guilty of being one now and then) that can definitely give a person pause. It could also be semantics we're dealing with. My AS definitely makes me "lock" on specific words and phrases. |
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Post by tavis on Jan 25, 2011 11:55:43 GMT -6
I guess I also don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to keep one's fantastic creations to oneself, or wanting to share them through a blog or web posts rather than going to the trouble of publishing self-contained things that are fun to have and offer different pathways of evaluation and experience. I like to think about the diagram in Gygax's Master of the Game where he identifies giving back to the hobby as the ultimate level of mastery. There's nothing wrong with not reaching for that - mastering the game is awesome at any level - but I think he's right to identify putting your stuff out there for others to enjoy as the deepest & in some ways most rewarding kind of engagement. Of course, as in D&D itself, being higher level means you're likely to face many more trolls! Whether that takes the form of posting on a blog vs. publishing a book is a complex issue, one that didn't exist when Gygax wrote his tome and will continue to change along with the realities of publishing. I do agree that we could use more of the things that publishing traditionally involves - acting as a filter to select the best stuff available, editing and developing it into the best possible form, and promoting it so that it gets the widest possible appreciation. IMO these are things worth paying for, esp. since they're relatively thankless compared to the joy of creation. |
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zendog
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 125
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Post by zendog on Jan 26, 2011 10:25:56 GMT -6
The conversation seems to have drifted, a little, but I've been following this since Chogowiz's blog post and keep forgetting to mention my own fantasy world, Redwald. Redwald isn't gonzo like Arduin, or exotic like EPT, in fact it's nothing like either of those, but they did inspire it in as much as I took the orginal game (or in this case S&W:WB) and warped and added to it in a way that suited the world I wanted to create. The Redwald Blog intro post is here if anyone wants a look. |
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Post by kesher on Jan 26, 2011 10:56:38 GMT -6
Cripes, Lee, of course Redwald!
I would argue that Redwald is a bit exotic, in that it's focused on a very specific, different, cultural milieu. I of course see this as exceedingly positive!
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Post by calithena on Jan 26, 2011 12:58:04 GMT -6
Wow. I have read your stuff before Lee but somehow I missed your blog. Very cool! There is some hardcore immersion potential with the linguistic elements there.
In general, I love it when people write stuff about their home games for Fight On! Even simple articles about gods, cultures, house magic rules, whatever are great, or you can get ambitious and write a whole gazeteer as various people have done also. Anyway, I am always down for promoting other people's stuff, and writing for FO! or some of the other great fanzines out there might also be a good way for some of you to eventually publish your own campaigns - do it in pieces first and then pull it all together later, bringing it to people's attention as you go.
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Post by welleran on Jan 27, 2011 9:26:40 GMT -6
Redwald is an awesome project. Granted, I am very biased in favor of the milieu you're working in and I fully intend to pillage the heck out it for my next campaign (which will have a sort of post Alfred and the Danes feel to it).
I really feel a bit guilty - I read boards and blogs to get ideas for my own game but don't put much out there myself. Sooner or later I need to rectify that!
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) I can't fault people for wanting to avoid criticism, personally, though generally anyone who puts out something creative will also find some love to go along with it.
