How much magic in treasure?

[badger2305]

How much magic do you put in your treasures? Do you like having a lot or only a little? Why? I'm asking because I've got profoundly mixed feelings about the whole subject.

On one hand, I recall the sense of achievement, as well as comfort, gained from characters having various items to use in combat and elsewhere. That Staff, along with those two Rings, and that Dagger+1 - yeah, good to have that stuff when taking on the bad guys.

On the other hand, I also recall the fighter who had the Golf Bag for his magical sword collection. "Barney, my good fellow, would you please hand me the +1, +3 Flametongue Bastard Sword? That's a fine chap - we've got a Cold Wyrm to dispatch."

What I want, basically, is for a +1 Sword to still mean something to the adventurer that finds it. Maybe that's asking for a lot, but I can dream, can't I?

I'm thinking for my next campaign that magic items that have permanent enchantments might be kinda rare. Scrolls, potions and the like will be relatively common. Items with charges (and there's a concept right there worthy of more discussion) would be a little less common, and then the enchanted stuff that stays that way would be pretty rare.

What do you all think?

[coffee]

I agree totally, but that comes at least partially from my latest experiences with 3rd ed (where one can just whip up a new magic item almost on a whim).

If magic is rare, it really means something.

Take a look at some of the high level characters in supplements like the Rogues Gallery or the Shady Dragon Inn -- they aren't walking arsenals of magical might. Nor should they be.

(I've often thought it would be amusing to run a 3rd ed game where the characters would be dumped into a non-magical world -- and see what they'd do then, without all their goodies to rely on...)

[makofan]

I hate to give out permanent items, but I'll ladle out potions and scrolls a'plenty. If I am random rolling, and get an item I don't want to use, I drop one or more healing potions in its place. Who doesn't like healing potions?

[dwayanu]

I'm pretty liberal with potions and scrolls, which pose the problem of when to use them. I guess their frequency is about twice the BTB chances for magic items in general (even more in early levels). I often place them with the intent that (a) monsters might use them or (b) a challenge in which they would help is nearby.

Otherwise, I pretty much follow the magic items tables. Note that 40% are arms and armor, half of those swords. Of swords, 75% get only +1 to hit except versus special foes. Among miscellaneous weapons, 81% get +1 (including daggers +2 versus goblins and kobolds). Armor and shields are 75% +1.

Potions and scrolls make up another 45%; rings, wands/staves, and miscellaneous magic come up only 5% each.

Again, it's pretty common for monsters to be using the items, which makes them harder to acquire.

[Deleted]

I never roll randomly for magical items. Magic, IMC, is dangerous, thought of as "Evil" (by anyone wielding it, for the most part), & rare--with magical items being even rarer. Since my campaign is extremely low magic, finding anything magical is a special experience for the party as a whole; it just never happens much.

[philotomy]

I'm currently working on a dungeon, and I'm using the Monster & Treasure Assortment sets as a guide. I don't limit myself to random rolls, but I do use them just to see what comes up. Also, I agree that it doesn't hurt to be more generous with potions and scrolls (and with wands, etc., to a lesser degree) than you are with permanent items.

WRT published adventures, I often find that they don't mesh with my personal views on how the campaign world is structured. For example, NPC levels are often too high and magic items are often too plentiful, compared to the way I like to run things. I have to scale things back. (These days, I'm more inclined to "roll my own" material, in any case.)

[doc]

I never insert treasure, especially magical, randomly. It reminds me too much of the old dungeons where in one room you had a troop of orcs, in the next one you had elves, and in the next a manticore, and none are trying to kill the other, they are just THERE.

I run a sword & sorcery style game where permenant magic is very rare. In a group of ten characters of 5th to 7th level, the most powerful weapon is +2. One of the things that I do is focus on creating my own unique magical items that aren't in any book for the characters to find and read. There is no such thing as a common "sword +1" in my game; each item has it's own history and a specific reason as to why it was created. Very often the only way to know how to use the item to it's best benefit is to do research to learn the item's history (Who created it? Why? How does it operate? Does it have a special purpose?). What eventually happens is that the characters have to work to discover what they have on their hands and this makes the treasure more than just "yet another sword I found in a dragon's lair (or "liar" as Dave Hargrave would have said)." They tend to get a real sense of accomplishment when they discover that the common +1 longsword they found is actually the blade that was wielded by Lord Kronar, the Last Paladin in the battle of Iron Pass where he used the weapon to single handedly take out a tribe of Night Goblins who had attempted to kidnap and eat the children of the King of Athka. All of a sudden, the weapon is something cool when viewed in it's historical significance.

Okay, I'm just rambling on. I hope that I'm making myself clear. It isn't the plusses or number of charges that make an item worth something; it's the significance of the item in your game world.

Doc

[crimhthanthegreat]

Oh I agree, I think you are on the right track, the items that can be used up are more plentiful and the permanent magic items are fewer and farther between. Huge bonuses are very uncommon. Most items have a +1 and anything higher is rare. Magic items mean something IMC because they come hard earned for the most part.

[coffee]

Speaking of magic, how about spells?

One old DM of mine explained it thusly: "You don't get Fireball until you've had it used on you." It would be either on a scroll or in the enemy M-U's spellbook, but the point was that you didn't just "magically" (pardon the pun) get new spells at each level.

It can be a quest in itself, seeking out a specific spell you want.

[badger2305]

Precisely. Make those MU spell books worth something. The idea that magic comes to you out of nowhere is actually kind of strange. Whatever happened to having a master who is teaching you what you need to know?

[coffee]

Yeah, if you pay for training when you go up a level (something introduced in AD&D, as I understand it), it would make sense to get more spells. But I've never seen anybody do that in 3e.

These days when a DM expects players to pay for training, they look at him like he just kicked their dog and set it on fire.

[crimhthanthegreat]

coffee said:

Speaking of magic, how about spells?

One old DM of mine explained it thusly: "You don't get Fireball until you've had it used on you." It would be either on a scroll or in the enemy M-U's spellbook, but the point was that you didn't just "magically" (pardon the pun) get new spells at each level.

It can be a quest in itself, seeking out a specific spell you want.

IMC magic-users have a mentor, clerics have their superior in the hierarchy of the church, and fighting-men spar with knights of the realm, each other and certain others. Magic-users can develop their own spells, but that is a slower process.

[coffee]

crimhthanthegreat said:

IMC magic-users have a mentor, clerics have their superior in the hierarchy of the church, and fighting-men spar with knights of the realm, each other and certain others. Magic-users can develop their own spells, but that is a slower process.

Exactly; you have it set up that way. So that's what works for you.

But what I've seen in later editions (pretty much all of them...), you go up a level and then you pick what spells you get at that level. Simple! They just appear!

I prefer it if there is a specific in-game rationale for having the spells. Either you find it, you research it, or your mentor teaches it to you.

[Deleted]

For MU's, IMC, I do this: At 1st level, the PC's mentor has chosen the (1) 1st level spell that is already scribed in the PC's spellbook. When achieving the 2nd level of experience, their teacher will allow them access to an aditional spell of her/his choice (now that they've proven themselves capable in the field, so to speak). I generally let them utilize the "teacher" until 3rd level, which after their mentor teaches them their first 2nd level spell (once again of the teachers' choice, & maybe an additional 1st level one of the PC's choice as well), the MU's pretty much on their own. They can, however, return to the school at any given time (as long as they stay in good standing) to utilize the facilities, for research, or to even purchase additional spells.

As for Clerics IMC, while there are organized religions in my campaign world (& appropriate dogmas), each Cleric is considered to have a "personal relationship" with their god: while they do learn all the rites & rituals of their affiliated religion, what spells their deity grants them is up to their deity alone (& the strength of the Cleric's faith, to boot). There are many ways to interpret the will & the words of god(s)--each Cleric must find their own...

[thorswulf]

Good topic! In many of the games of D&D or AD&D I have played in it never ceases to amaze me how tightly other players hold onto scrolls and potions. Now with a MU hoarding a scroll, I can understand the need for learning a new spell. But when those five manticores are ripping a party to shreds, maybe using that scroll with fireball on it IS a GOOD idea!

Potions are just as problematic in my experience. Sure it sucks to find out it was poison you just drank, but that is part of the risk involved! Maybe the real problem is that the nearest wizard who might be able to identify it is too far away!

I tend to have some potions like healing have some regular appearence or container- like a flask with a holy symbol on it or something. This helps keep the game moving along, when you don't have too many players to start with.

I have never played with Cursed scrolls for some reason. Maybe I'm just an old softie, but nobody likes being turned into a toad, or a fly. The random teleporter can be a real pain too. Of course a Cursed scroll could be a great adventure in of itself. You have been cursed by the scroll you must find the item that will dispell the curse within a set time, or you will be (insert horrible thing here)!

On the subject of magic swords, I confess I have been a little too liberal with them! Mind you they were "normal" magic swords of the +1, or +2 variety. Some of the swords are very powerful. Consider the +1 Flaming sword. it sure as heck reminds me of Dyrnwynn from Lloyd Alexanders Chronicles of Prydain. It really hurts trolls and undead, two of the more pwerful monster types around!

By the way, when it comes to command words, I use the Latin descriptions from Ars Magica. I mean "Creo Ignatum" sounds better than "Flame On" to me. Cymric (Welsh) would sound pretty good too!

[Finarvyn]

I like to use a "house rule" that a +1 weapon could be created by a master craftsman with a lot of time and patience, and thus make them somewhat common (although expensive). Usually these weapons find themselves as family heirlooms, etc.

I reserve +2 and better for "true" magic weapns and make them somewhat rare.

[makofan]

I like to hand out some silver weapons at level 1, and +1 weapons at lvl 2 and higher. I anticipate that by level 5 almost everybody will have found some sort of really good permanent item.

[dwayanu]

Silver weapons certainly are handy early on -- and a curious omission from the treasure tables.

Aside: Based on the price for silver-tipped arrows, I figure the value as 20x that of a normal weapon. In my campaign, I've reckoned that (given the softness of silver, and its relative value) weapons are actually electroplated. The guild possessing that secret technique commands high prices. I suppose an alloy (real or fantastic) could be as good or better a rationale.

[badger2305]

dwayanu said:

Silver weapons certainly are handy early on -- and a curious omission from the treasure tables.

Aside: Based on the price for silver-tipped arrows, I figure the value as 20x that of a normal weapon. In my campaign, I've reckoned that (given the softness of silver, and its relative value) weapons are actually electroplated. The guild possessing that secret technique commands high prices. I suppose an alloy (real or fantastic) could be as good or better a rationale.

Or a simple weaponsmith enchantment (something that Dwarves might do). Not a plus to hit or damage, but making the metal keep and retain an edge.

[dwayanu]

Yes, something like the "rune metal" enchantments in RuneQuest. I set that aside because I did not want to deal with the issue of silver weapons being "magical" in the D&D sense.

[makofan]

In my online campaign in Verbosh, there is a silversmith who silvers weapons for you. My players haven't yet picked up on the idea

[thorswulf]

Nice solutions to the silver weapons. I think a cast silver smashing weapon would the easist weapon for a silversmith to do. I suppose studding a club to make a morning star would be fairly easy to do. I like the Dwarf enchanting the weapon idea, it seems like something dwarves WOULD do!

[dwayanu]

And of course, one could simply declare that despite reference to a "magical" process, the specially-worked silver does not count as "magical" for any game-mechanical purpose. In a fantasy game, especially where magic is concerned, sometimes things "just are that way."

If silver weapons (made of actual silver) are considered "jewelry," then they are remarkably inexpensive -- but I see that treasure category as referring to items with set gems (not merely worked metal). I mean, a pound of silver itself is worth only 1 g.p.!

[raithe]

I'm a fan of low magic in general.
(Course I'd also pay good money to see REH's Conan face off against a certain two scimitar wielding dark-elf as well)
But if you're looking to increase the value of a +1 knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=119 this is a good thread to check out.

[crimhthanthegreat]

IMC the addition of silver to weapons is a magical process and separate from weapons being given a +1 or more. In addition, having weapons that have been silvered is highly desireable. All of the best weaponsmiths are dwarves.

[dekelia]

Players like to find magic, but I agree that too much quickly makes the players too powerful, which makes the *best* solution often be slugging it out frontal assault style, which I find boring. The worst culprit of this is magic weapons and armor.

I have to admit (shamefully ) if it's written in the book, I have a hard time not following it (probably the reason I keep moving farther and farther back in rulesets . I also primarily do published adventures. We recently did B2, and I tell you, there are a lot of magic shields and plate mail in that module. Many of the modules seem to do this. They give out a lot of magic weapons and armor.

Reading through the Cugel Saga in Dying Earth, one thing that I really liked and have tried to apply to D&D is that he would *constantly* find really powerful items or gain a lot of money, but just as quickly, he'd lose it somehow. D&D provides many ways to gain and lose items and money, and I take advantage of that if they get too much.

Also following that, I don't necessarily like to gear the level of magic to the level of monsters they're fighting. I think it would be cool to find a ring of 3 wishes, or even a more powerful temporary use item at low levels (though it would probably be hard to find - otherwise someone else would have). There's also of course the chance of finding nothing. I think that adds to the excitement and mystery rather than, "ok...so...we're level 2 so we should finding +1 weapons now..."

I also like to encourage my players to scout and sneak, etc, (I just like that style of play) so while I don't allow them to buy magic items, I give them a decent chance to *trade* magic items for temporary items or services. You need a potion of fire resistance, someone will trade you for your +1 dagger, etc. It gives me a way to remove some of the excessive items from play. This encourages scouting because once they figure out what they'll need (particular spell on a scroll, etc) they have a chance to get it.

If I were making my own dungeon (which I would like to do at some point - and used to long ago), I think I'd give out a lot of one-use (scrolls, potions, etc), and temporary (wands, etc) items and try to make most permanent items very unique.

I should point out that much of this is theory since I don't get to DM as much as I'd like

[busman]

Dec 14, 2007 17:32:11 GMT -6 @oltekos said:

For MU's, IMC, I do this: At 1st level, the PC's mentor has chosen the (1) 1st level spell that is already scribed in the PC's spellbook. When achieving the 2nd level of experience, their teacher will allow them access to an aditional spell of her/his choice (now that they've proven themselves capable in the field, so to speak). I generally let them utilize the "teacher" until 3rd level, which after their mentor teaches them their first 2nd level spell (once again of the teachers' choice, & maybe an additional 1st level one of the PC's choice as well), the MU's pretty much on their own. They can, however, return to the school at any given time (as long as they stay in good standing) to utilize the facilities, for research, or to even purchase additional spells.

I frequently took this logically further. I thought of the MU mentor of the PC like a Tennis Pro; they didn't have to be the world's best to teach a rising star. I thought of my players as being very special in the world, something that very few other people could really accomplish. Their master would be lucky to ever achieve 3rd level MU or even HAVE a second level spell. When they sent their student off into the world with their "meager handful of spells" they were usually sending them off with their entire collection of spells. They had literally taught the player everything they knew.

Large cities might have a sage or ex-adventuring MU, but certainly not one willing to give away or sell their spells to other MU. Getting a new spell was a feat. Something to be earned, researched, and often adventured for.

The best part about this, is I'd often have players with some typically obscure or little used spells as their memorized spell simply because it was the only one (or two) that they had found/ researched yet. There was this one time I even allowed the player to either adventure for his next 2nd level spell, or to research it and roll randomly for it. He chose research and roll... heh, I have to admit his ingenious use of Fool's Gold to lure a Bugbear into an ambush was great, and something I would never have seen him do, if I had just given him Knock as he originally wanted.

[howandwhy99]

It's sort of a world issue IMO. If you come from a highly magic-tech world, then magic is going to be ubiquitous. If there is no magic at all, then everyone will see it as shocking if and when a PC uses their own.

For balance issues I'd just "silo" it off from other levels of PC power. E.g., a 0-level commoner with artifacts don't rate the same XP value / threat level as one with a rusty pitchfork.