Warlock variant D&D system

[Finarvyn]

This was on the "Levels in M&M" thread. I thought it was worthy of a thread of its own.

melan said:

foster1941 said:

Note that, for instance, in The Arduin Grimoire the advancement tables go up to level 100. The CalTech house-D&D variant (which was published eventually, but I can't recall the name of -- someone (Melan?) mentioned recently on ENWorld that he has a copy and isn't impressed) was, reputedly, similarly focused.

That was me. I came across Warlock (subtitled: "How to play DandD without playing DandD" [sic]) on an eBay auction and won it thanks to a lucky bid -- if Afterglow2 is correct, I own the only existing copy. Warlock may have been one of the first attempts to "fix" D&D: there is a spell point system, magic is reworked to be more systematic (it comes out more generic and much less interesting), and I think they did something to thieves. The rules give tables for advancement beyond the OD&D norm, but nothing really outlandish... or at least nothing along the lines of David Hargrave's "three balrogs through the door" DMing style.

Unfortunately, I can't recall more about the rules without reading them again. They are very forgettable, and basically uninteresting to an OD&D fan except as a fancy collectors' item (meaning, even though it sucks, I am not interested in selling ;D). On the other hand, you can see what Warlock evolved into here.

[Finarvyn]

calithena said:

I used to own the Complete Warlock, which was a revised version of the Warlock rules from a couple of years later. Definitely not Arduin-like. It actually reads a lot like 2e AD&D, at least to me. There was one worthy innovation there, though: retconning thief abilities along the 'slots' model instead of introducing %ile abilities. It went like this:

(Cowan, Robert, Dave Clark, Kenneth M. Dahl, and Nick Smith, The Complete Warlock, Pasadena: Balboa Game Company, 1978.)

The thief class was Kenneth Dahl's work.

Progression Chart (p. 8):

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
1
2
3 1
4 2
5 2 1
5 3 2 1
6 3 3 1
6 4 3 2 1
6 4 4 2 2
7 4 4 2 2
7 5 4 3 2
7 5 5 3 3
8 5 5 3 3 1
8 6 5 4 3 1
8 6 6 4 4 1
9 6 6 4 4 2
9 7 6 5 4 2 1
9 7 7 5 5 2 1
10 7 7 5 5 3 1
10 8 7 6 5 3 1

EDIT: Drat. I lost part of the table in the move. Perhaps Calithena would be so kind as to edit and restore the rest?

SECOND EDIT: Calithena came through with the complete table. I'm sure it's not formatted as nicely as what was there before, but at least all of the data is intact. Thanks!

[Finarvyn]

calithena said:

Here are the ability charts from page 48:

First Level Abilities
1. Detect Evil
2. Detect Good
3. Detect Magic
4. Evaluate Treasure (within 10% of actual value, limited by ‘what you would know’)
5. Jimmy Portals
6. Pick Most Locks (2/3)
7. Dagger +2
8. Short Sword +2
9. Sling +2
10. Sure Strike, Dagger (x3) (this is a backstab – can only attack with dagger)
11. Detect Noise +1/6
12. Hide in Shadows (50%)
13. Jam Portals
14. Move More Silently (+1/6)
15. Spot Hidden Items (+1/6)
16. Cheat at Game of Skill (adds +1/6 to chances of winning)
17. Sleight of Hand (80%)
18. Pilfer from Backpacks/Saddlebags (50%)
19. Lie Convincingly (+4 to effective Charisma when lying)
20. Map Deciphering
21. Read 1 Extra Language
22. Start Fires
23. Tie Up with Ropes

[Finarvyn]

calithena said:

Second Level Abilities
1. Note Poison Locks (90%)
2. Pick All Locks (90%)
3. Parry Bonus (this relates to the CW combat system, which is sort of Runequesty)
4. Sure Strike, Dagger (x4)
5. Throw Dagger +2
6. Throw Short Sword
7. Bump of Direction (50%)
8. Disguise (Basic)
9. Move More Silently (+1/3)
10. See in Dark (50% bonus)
11. Spot Hidden Items (+1/3)
12. Tracking (50%)
13. Game of Skill +1 (no cheating involved)
14. Mechanical Trap Setting
15. Secret Panel Design
16. Sleight of Hand (90%)
17. Ventriloquism (80%)
18. Con
19. Escape from Ropes
20. Estimate Range (+/- 10%)
21. Estimate Volume (+/- 20%)
22. Map Memorization (75%)
23. Pick Pockets (2/3)
24. Speak One Extra Language
25. Bow +2

[Finarvyn]

calithena said:

Third Level Abilities
1. Circumvent Traps (50%)
2. Find Likely Treasures (75% - nice early switch to conflict resolution – not magically protected)
3. Note Secret Panels in Chests (90%)
4. Note Traps in Chests (90%)
5. Note Traps in Doors (90%)
6. Dagger +4
7. Extra Arrow (you can fire three arrows with -4 on each instead of the normal 2 – requires Bow +2 or better but you don’t get the bonus)
8. Short Sword +4
9. Sling +4
10. Sure Strike, Dagger (x5)
11. Throw Short Sword +2
12. Hide in Shadows (90%)
13. Spot Hidden Items (+2/3)
14. Cheat at Game of Skill +2
15. Jump and Run
16. Poisoned Trap Setting
17. Use Sleep Drugs
18. Ventriloquism (90%)
19. Climb Rope
20. Con +1
21. Detect Slopes (50%)
22. Estimate Range (+/- 5%)
23. Estimate Volume (+/- 10%)
24. Pilfer from Backpacks/Saddlebags (90%)
25. Tie Up With Ropes +1

[Finarvyn]

calithena said:

Fourth Level Abilities
1. Find Likely Treasure Rooms (75% - this lets you know which way to go to get to the biggest treasure trove!)
2. Pick all Locks (95%)
3. Taste Analysis
4. Bow +4
5. Dodge 2-Handed Weapons (gives +2 defense)
6. Double Dagger Throw -4
7. Sap (50% KO, 1DIE)
8. Sure Strike, Dagger (x6)
9. Throw Dagger +4
10. Detect Noise (+1/2)
11. Freeze in Position
12. Move Silently (+2/3)
13. Spot Hidden Items (+5/6)
14. Tracking (75%)
15. Dice Manipulation (90%)
16. Game of Skill +2
17. Climb Sheer Walls
18. Juggle (80%)
19. Manipulate Small Objects with Feet (90%)
20. Manufacture Poisons
21. Manufacture Sleep Drugs
22. Sleight of Hand (95%)
23. Arson
24. Con +2
25. Escape from Ropes +1
26. Forgery (80%)
27. Identify Poisoning
28. Pick Pockets (90%)

[Finarvyn]

calithena said:

Fifth Level Abilities
1. Circumvent Traps (90%)
2. “Nose” For Treasure (90% to find treasure rooms and hidden treasures around a lair)
3. Note All Traps
4. Diving Dodge (completely avoid all attacks by one foe by diving out of combat)
5. Double Dagger Throw (-2)
6. Extra Arrow (-2)
7. Sap Sure Strike
8. Throw Short Sword +4
9. Bump of Direction (90%)
10. Camouflage
11. Doppelganger
12. Spot All Hidden Items
13. Cheat at Game of Skill +3
14. Juggle (90%)
15. Read Lips
16. Tightrope Walk
17. Ventriloquism (99%)
18. Code and Cipher Development
19. Con +3
20. Detect Shifting Walls and Rooms (50%)
21. Estimate Range (+/- 1%)
22. Estimate Volume (+/- 5%)
23. Forgery (90%)
24. Tie Up With Ropes +2

[Finarvyn]

calithena said:

Sixth Level Abilities
1. Bypass All Normal Traps
2. Pick All Locks (99%)
3. Double Dagger Throw
4. Double Dagger Melee
5. Double Short sword
6. Sap (90% KO, 0-2 DICE)
7. Tracking (95%)
8. Alchemy (Duplication)
9. Antidote to Poison
10. Game of Skill +3
11. Juggle (99%)
12. Mimic Voices
13. Mimic Movements
14. Thief Trap Setting
15. Code and Cipher Breaking
16. Detect Counterfeit (90%)
17. Detect Slopes (90%)
18. Escape from Ropes +2
19. Special Trap Setting
20. Grappling Hook
21. Spot Thievish Activity

[Finarvyn]

That's really neat. I've seen some other games (2E Diablo, I think) set up a system where non-spells were treated somewhat like spells, but sounds like this Warlock game system did it way before anyone else!

[calithena]

Yeah, I thought it was really cool. The rest of the book was a little lackluster (less flavor, more needless complexity), but that was an excellent idea for how to handle the thief. Feats!

[ffilz]

I was reading through my copy of Complete Warlock. Wow, the poor 1st level thief doesn't get to do much...

Custom advancement tables for each type of allowed multi-class was interesting.

Frank

[Wm. Earle Wheeler]

Is the "updated" Warlock document found here:

www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/highwayman/783/

the same as the original Warlock variant system? I see that it has been updated for 2000, but as I don't have a copy of the original, I don't know how severe those changes are.

[Melan]

The update is a lot, lot more complicated than the original.

[crimhthanthegreat]

That could be a great reference for the ref but I don't know that I would hand it out to the players.

[Finarvyn]

With the "1970's California D&D Movement" discussion all a buzz at the moment, I thought I'd bump this thead to the top for newcomers who might have missed it the first time around. This is discussion of the 1970's "Warlock" variant rules from CalTech.

[apeloverage]

But spell slots seem to be the thing people like least about the D&D rules.

[aldarron]

Just as a point of interesting trivia, here is a quote from Holmes' Fantasy Role Playing Games. "At Caltech in Pasadena, students Cowan,Clark, Shih, Smith, Dahl and Peterson put together a set of rules with what they felt to be an improved combat and magic system: Warlock. I used their combat table when I first began playing D&D, because I could not understand the one in the original books." p65. I think that is the only time he mentions warlock in the book.

[vaultkeeper]

Dec 5, 2007 1:21:13 GMT -6 Wm. Earle Wheeler said:

Is the "updated" Warlock document found here:

www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/highwayman/783/

the same as the original Warlock variant system? I see that it has been updated for 2000, but as I don't have a copy of the original, I don't know how severe those changes are.

please can someone provide me with the pdf version of this?
On the mentioned site it is no longer available...

i would be really grateful to whoever can bestow this gift

[kesher]

Hey there, vk---I clicked on the link, and went right to the site, which includes a pdf of the complete rules. Maybe it was just a glitch in the site when you tried to go there?

*modified after, you know, actually checking...

Sorry! I misread your post---I thought you meant the site wasn't available, but now I see you meant the actual documents. And yeah, they're not there... Maybe you could email Mike Riley directly? There are a couple of email addresses right on the site.

[spacemonkeydm]

How did they handle the spell system? Not sure how points buy would work with dnd

[Zenopus]

Spacemonkeydm: I plan to do a more detailed summary of the Warlock System at some point, but basically each spell has a point cost for casting, and sometimes a second value for "continuing". Each MU gets a certain number of points based on a few factors. Wizards still need to "know" spells and memorize them per D&D rules, but once memorized, they can be cast multiple times each day if enough spell points remain. It's not a bad idea, but it does require a long list of spell point values for each spell.

[catacomb]

Available on my blog now.

[Azafuse]

Mar 12, 2014 3:22:41 GMT -6 catacomb said:

Available on my blog now.

I don't know if scans are so legal.

[Deleted]

Mar 12, 2014 3:22:41 GMT -6 catacomb said:

Available on my blog now.

Just checked it out for the first time. What a mess.

[Zenopus]

Mar 13, 2014 6:45:27 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

Mar 12, 2014 3:22:41 GMT -6 catacomb said:

Available on my blog now.

Just checked it out for the first time. What a mess.

Not loving the quadruple fighter/magic-user/cleric/thief class?

[Deleted]

Mar 14, 2014 6:03:48 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Not loving the quadruple fighter/magic-user/cleric/thief class?

Their multi-classing was weird but workable. I do like how they stuck with the superior OD&D-style hit dice.

[tog]

Mar 14, 2014 6:03:48 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Mar 13, 2014 6:45:27 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

Just checked it out for the first time. What a mess.

Not loving the quadruple fighter/magic-user/cleric/thief class?

Hey, if you're going to play a class-based system, why not play all of them at once?

[Zenopus]

How about playing a game where every adventurer (both in the party and NPCs) is a quadruple class-er? That would make for a interesting game and setting. Perhaps everyone is from a super longed lived elf-like race.