Half-elves: threat or menace?

[badger2305]

I've been thinking a long time now about jamesm's objection to thieves, and realized I had a similar one to half-elves. See, once you add half-elves to the mix, you have to start explaining where and how and why these inter-species people come from. Greyhawk simply says they exist, and then there's usually a fuzzy memory of half-elves from Tolkien.

But once you let one half-something in the door, then you get half-orcs, etc.

All of which leads to trying to explain how these beings came to be. I've tended to house rule it as only elves and humans are interfertile, and then but rarely. But there's always somebody who wants to play a half-orc, or a half-elf half-dwarf, or some other silly combination, IMHO.

But the entire idea starts leads to biological explanations for how things work in D&D, and I'm not sure this is a Good Idea. I'm not averse to it completely, but I do think it takes the edge off of the true difference between "heroes" and "the unknown" which is part of D&D being what it is, or so it seems to me.

What do you all think?

[Deleted]

I've never been a fan of "Half-Breeds" in D&D. Sure, some would argue that half-elves & half-orcs are pretty much "iconic" to the game, but not me. I prefer to leave real-world biology out of it. It's obvious human couples marry & sire children (& the same goes for dwarves, elves, & hobbits, at least IMC), but beyond that, I don't get involved with any of it. As far as I rule (if a player presses the issue), humans & demi-humans may copulate & even wed each other, but only those of their own species may sire children.

[EDIT] And as far as monsters are concerned, I leave that a mystery. Where do they come from? Chaos? Darkness? Who knows! It's just not important. I don't have "little goblins" runnin' around IMC--what's the point?

[James Maliszewski]

badger2305 said:

I've been thinking a long time now about jamesm's objection to thieves, and realized I had a similar one to half-elves. See, once you add half-elves to the mix, you have to start explaining where and how and why these inter-species people come from. Greyhawk simply says they exist, and then there's usually a fuzzy memory of half-elves from Tolkien.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I have some qualms about half-elves too, because they are, in a sense, the first step on a different road to perdition: naturalism. By "naturalism," I mean the treatment of fantasy races as if they had biologies and behaviors that we can study and learn and catalog and treat like we do animals that exist in the real world. In general, I favor a non-naturalistic approach to D&D monsters -- their origins are mythical or at least supernatural; they represent incursions from Outside into the mortal realm. One you begin to postulate that, for example, elves have a compatible biology with humans -- which they must if they can cross-breed -- then elves become just short humans with pointy ears and a penchant for living in the woods. That's an approach I don't much like and I think part of the magic of OD&D is that it's (ironically) the last edition of D&D that still treats its creatures and demihumans in this way.

[Arminath]

I think it depends on how you treat the creation myths of your races (if you delve that far into your campaign backgrounds). IMC the Gods created dwarves stone of the Earth, while elves came from the spirit of Nature itself and Hobbits were made from the essences of joy and peace. Humans were created to bring all the races together. Half-elves aren't elves at all, but actually the spirits of lesser fey beings given mortal forms by the gods to bridge the gap between short lived humans and long-lived elves. They are called half-elf simply because of their appearance, not because of any biological relation.

[coffee]

I'm glad someone brought this up. I've never liked half-elves and the attendant complication this brought about. I don't like half-breeds either, and I do not and will not use them (caveat: It's okay for one player to have a character with "some elven blood", but I don't want an entire community of them...)

Consider AD&D standards: Players can be Half-Elves or Half-Orcs. But the descriptions of Elves specifically states that Elves and Orcs cannot interbreed.

I was stumped by this, and asked a distinguished DM of my acquaintance why this should be. Specifically, I asked:

"If A = B and B = C, then why does not A = C?"

He got full marks for answering:

"Because this is D&D!"

And that's a good enough explanation for me.

[philotomy]

I'm not much for half-breed races, either.

As far as PC races go, I'm find my opinion drifting more and more into the "PCs should be human" point of view.

[jrients]

As a player I enjoy having a character that has one foot in the mundane world and one foot in the land of the fey. As a referee I am annoyed at how quickly the proliferation of half-breeds becomes when you open the door to one special exception.

[ffilz]

Back in the day, I didn't have much of a problem with the half-elf. I almost never had anyone play a half-orc, so we didn't see a lot of pressure for proliferation.

Later in college though, I did start adding races willy nilly, and these days I feel that the game is best if the races are kept to a minimum, and limitations are placed that make humans the best choice in general, such that non-humans serve as side dishes not the main course.

Of course I deplore 3rd edition's half-this-that-and-the-other-thing mentality...

Frank

[badger2305]

ffilz said:

Later in college though, I did start adding races willy nilly, and these days I feel that the game is best if the races are kept to a minimum, and limitations are placed that make humans the best choice in general, such that non-humans serve as side dishes not the main course.

I understand that impulse, but I'm not as human-centric as that. I just think that the "naturalism" discussion is problematic - it's a distinct issue from how many races do you want to have (or so it seems to me).

[James Maliszewski]

badger2305 said:

I understand that impulse, but I'm not as human-centric as that. I just think that the "naturalism" discussion is problematic - it's a distinct issue from how many races do you want to have (or so it seems to me).

Yes, it is. They're related issues in that, in my experience, those who favor half-breed races are almost always the same ones who favor expanding the number of races available (both as PCs and generally), but there's no logical connection between them.

All that aside, this thread has confirmed my dislike of half-elves and pushed me toward the notion that half-orcs likewise shouldn't exist. I'm inclined toward the notion that orcs might be able to breed with anything but the result is always an orc -- that seems less naturalistic to me and more in keeping with the notion of orcs and other Chaotic humanoids as some kind of cosmic "cancer" in the mortal realm.

[wulfgar]

I think you could have half-orcs in a completely non-naturalist game world. Just have an evil wizard or mad scientist who is performing fiedish experiments on his captives- voila- half-orc henchmen!

Of course such henchmen would most likely be npcs not pcs.

[Stonegiant]

I think the Half-Elf and the Half-Orc took their inspiration from the works of Tolkien. Back in the day when presented with the half-elf and the half-orc and why could an elf not breed with an elf I simply stated that humans can breed with any of the humanoid races but that these matings produced mules and not a viable species.

[driver]

stonegiant said:

humans can breed with any of the humanoid races but that these matings produced mules and not a viable species.

If this were literally the case, it would be the most awesome campaign ever.

[sham]

driver said:

stonegiant said:

humans can breed with any of the humanoid races but that these matings produced mules and not a viable species.

If this were literally the case, it would be the most awesome campaign ever.

Hehe, you made me LOL. ;D

[busman]

In the interest of letting players have fun, I'm fairly open to any race, as long as there is a good backstory explaining what's going on. I love having players be inventive and come up with cool storylines and histories for their characters.

[geoffrey]

jamesm said:

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I have some qualms about half-elves too, because they are, in a sense, the first step on a different road to perdition: naturalism. By "naturalism," I mean the treatment of fantasy races as if they had biologies and behaviors that we can study and learn and catalog and treat like we do animals that exist in the real world. In general, I favor a non-naturalistic approach to D&D monsters -- their origins are mythical or at least supernatural; they represent incursions from Outside into the mortal realm. One you begin to postulate that, for example, elves have a compatible biology with humans -- which they must if they can cross-breed -- then elves become just short humans with pointy ears and a penchant for living in the woods. That's an approach I don't much like and I think part of the magic of OD&D is that it's (ironically) the last edition of D&D that still treats its creatures and demihumans in this way.

I agree. I can't stand treating demi-humans as funny humans with cool powers.

[philotomy]

busman said:

In the interest of letting players have fun, I'm fairly open to any race...

I agree with you; I don't usually forbid a given race that a player wants to play, but my preference is definitely for human PCs.

[Geiger]

jamesm said:

I'm inclined toward the notion that orcs might be able to breed with anything but the result is always an orc -- that seems less naturalistic to me and more in keeping with the notion of orcs and other Chaotic humanoids as some kind of cosmic "cancer" in the mortal realm.

That's how I view my orcs. The only difference is that they only "breed" with human females. My elves are technically half-elves. True elves are incarnated fey spirits and thus npc's. That way I don't technically have to deal with the humans in a funny suit problem.

[driver]

geiger said:

My elves are technically half-elves. True elves are incarnated fey spirits and thus npc's. That way I don't technically have to deal with the humans in a funny suit problem.

And, stolen. This fits my upcoming campaign perfectly. Yoink!

[driver]

I just posted this in the pre-campaign thread for my PBP campaign, and will be adding it to the house rules.

"Elf" player characters are technically Half-Elves.

There are no Elf-lands and there is no known Elvish "culture." Elves are scary Fair Folk creatures who occasionally snatch an unlucky girl into a hollow hill. The abductee emerges years later, unaged but pregnant; their changeling offspring are Half-Elves, who use the Elf rules. Most commoners just call them "Elves," and distrust and fear them, but don't (usually) harm them for fear of reprisals.

As before, the appearance of a PC Half-Elf is entirely up to the player. There isn't a unified "style guide" for them.

Thanks to geiger for the idea!

[calithena]

Orion in The King of Elfland's Daughter is a half-elf, in addition to (and in some ways better than) the Tolkien examples.

I think having them is OK and not having them is OK.

The way I'd probably prefer to have them though is to not have them, but maybe have elves, and then one day when some player gets a gleam in his eye and says "I want to play a half-elven prince", maybe it turns out that there's one half-elf in the world after all, or a small number.

Like with PC spellcasters, there are about 100 wizards in any given fantasy world I run, maybe less. The PCs happen to be some of them. Magic is rare and scary and powerful when I run, or I try to make it that way anyway, just because any old PC can have it does NOT mean there's a wizard in every town.

I think distinguishing between what might be allowed and what is, is a more useful tool than it's sometimes been recognized as, in other words.

[lordtwang]

I don't care much for the halvsies either. Just comes across as silly in the game. If a player wants to be half-elf as a lineage, then he should make a human character and act a little elven. That's how I would do it.

Now, in my current campaign we have many races, probably about 20 at this point. Only two can intermix, and they're basically dark elves and regular elves. Now, this has lead to many interesting implications involving who to have sex with when you don't want children, prostitutes, moral quandries debated by the players and their characters, etc. Quite interesting, and most of it is vastly humorous. A riot, actually. Not for every game obviously, but the implications....

[Geiger]

driver said:

Thanks to geiger for the idea!

You're welcome. Glad you liked it!